Where's Parrot been hiding?

[NOSValves]

Cost may have absolutely zero to do with what a person ultimately likes, and perhaps it may. As I mentioned years ago in these same archaic debates, filet mignon is a very expensive cut of meat, and often prized for it's natural tenderness and low fat. I find it pretty tasteless and bland compared to much easier on the wallet, flank.

Erik

Yup this says it all. At least your analogies go hand in hand with your taste in audio. You like low rate steak and you also like low rate sound in your listening room.

Well this post should relieve some of the boredom around here [6] []

Craig

[Audio Flynn]

Cost may have absolutely zero to do with what a person ultimately

likes, and perhaps it may. As I mentioned years ago in these same

archaic debates, filet mignon is a very expensive cut of meat, and

often prized for it's natural tenderness and low fat. I find it

pretty tasteless and bland compared to much easier on the wallet,

flank.

Erik

Yup this says it all. At least your analogies go hand in hand with

your taste in audio. You like low rate steak and you

also like low rate sound in your listening room.

Well this post should relieve some of the boredom around here [6] []

Craig

I am less bored.

Thank God I have never been tortured with a bland filet.

2A3 is more bland than ground chuck to me.

[Deang]

LOL!

Poor Erik. I know it's hard to believe, but I actually agree with some of what he's saying. He's definitely wrong about flank steak though -- you have to beat the sh!t out of it with a hammer and marinate it for a week before you can eat it. The thing to pull from his post that's important is that is there is no cookie-cutter approach to this stuff. What works well for one person may not work well for another, and it's certainly possible someone might be happier with the sound of a "lesser cap" or tube brand in their system. We used to kick the crap out of each other a lot around here, but through that process many of us ended up with the great sound we're enjoying now -- and needless to say we're not all using the same stuff. Those old threads encouraged experimentation, which netted great rewards for me personally. No, not everyone can afford VRD's, pCats, or some other exotic piece of gear -- but there are things that can get them close, and then there are things that will take them far away from that kind of audio bliss.

Yes, mas is awesome. He said some things in another thread that I wanted to address, but didn't have the time -- the idea that just because something is different doesn't mean it's better. It bothers him to read, "it sounds different", without it being qualified. I believe people quit doing that because they didn't want to be ridiculed by those who believe you can't describe difference in sound because those differences aren't always quantifiable.

[Erik Mandaville]

Craig:

"You like low rate steak and you also like low rate sound in your listening room."

As opposed to what, what you would describe as 'high rate steak and high rate sound'? edit: []

Will you please explain and/or define both 'high rate steak' and 'high rate sound' for me?

AudioFlynn: I agree with Dean on what he said about the little Teac amp you mentioned. Although I'm paraphrasing, the essence of the message was that it was the best low-power or low level amp he's heard. I agree with that, and am someone who can build the big heavy jobs with lots of iron. In fact, I'm working on a push-pull 6L6 project right now that was put off for awhile in order to let my back heal some more. My issue is that I wanted to build monoblocks, but was thinking late one night of a really neat way to use this particular chassis as a stereo amp to use with our Heresies.

Anyway, Craig: Please have a shot at that 'high rate steak and high rate sound' thing, okay?

Thanks in advance,

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Dean:

"Poor Erik"

Nah, not in the least. I do appreciate the sentiment, though!

[NOSValves]

That's it I've had enough you can't even start a good fight around here no more[]

It's official this place is boring......

Craig

[Erik Mandaville]

And it's true, not everyone cat afford VRD or Pcats. However, from what I heard of the T-16s and bridged SE OTLs, I think the following from Transcendent Sound might be pretty spectacular in the right system. If one happens to be looking for tube high power, and in this case entirely without what some believe to be the possible compromises of output transformers, the following pair of amps might be something to think about. If we're comparing not only design quality but cost of horse power, the 'Beast' (....I admit I could do with another name, but that's just me....) is pretty good for the money. IMO.

Erik

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Beast%20OTL.htm

edit: But, I'm looking at the kit price. Completely built with tubes is not cheap. High power, though, with 160 watts into 8ohms.

[Audio Flynn]

LOL!

Poor Erik. I know it's hard to believe, but I actually agree with

some of what he's saying. He's definitely wrong about flank steak

though -- you have to beat the sh!t out of it with a hammer

and marinate it for a week before you can eat it. The thing to

pull from his post that's important is that is there is no

cookie-cutter approach to this stuff. What works well for one person

may not work well for another, and it's certainly possible someone

might be happier with the sound of a "lesser cap" or tube brand in

their system. We used to kick the crap out of each other a lot around

here, but through that process many of us ended up with the great sound

we're enjoying now -- and needless to say we're not all using the same

stuff.

I have not touched a tube in my Blueberry or Scott

208. Caps are all new in the Scott. The "kick the crap out of each

other" for me was never about the equipment; it was about poor logic or

theories. Unfortunately some equipment gets connected to the poor logic.

Those old threads encouraged experimentation, which

netted great rewards for me personally. No, not everyone can afford

VRD's, pCats, or some other exotic piece of gear -- but there are

things that can get them close, and then there are things that will

take them far away from that kind of audio bliss.

True. With some ingenuity and patience over time a

pair of Hereseys or RB-5s with a Scott 299C and a Sony ES 333 could

probably be had for about $ 1000; megabucks not required.

http://hhscott.com/integrated_amps_stereo.htm

Yes, mas is awesome. He said some things in another thread that I

wanted to address, but didn't have the time -- the idea that just

because something is different doesn't mean it's better. It bothers

him to read, "it sounds different", without it being qualified. I

believe people quit doing that because they didn't want to be ridiculed

by those who believe you can't describe difference in sound because

those differences aren't always quantifiable.

It would be my preference that everybody gets thicker skin. Passionate

debate is too quickly stifled by the "ridicule factor" whether it is

moderator induced or otherwise.

[mas]

I will take a slightly different tack...

Flank steak is fine in a properly prepared fajita!!!! (although my personal favorite is chicken!)

And with frozen margaritas....pure heaven! []

And then everything sounds wonderful! (Well, except rap...I haven't abandoned ALL standards!) []

...and that mas guy ain't so hot! I venture that I could kick his @ss - after a few margaritas![]

[sputnik]

That Parrot has amazing powers - he can bait an argument without even being here.

[NOSValves]

And it's true, not everyone cat afford VRD or Pcats. However, from what I heard of the T-16s and bridged SE OTLs, I think the following from Transcendent Sound might be pretty spectacular in the right system. If one happens to be looking for tube high power, and in this case entirely without what some believe to be the possible compromises of output transformers, the following pair of amps might be something to think about. If we're comparing not only design quality but cost of horse power, the 'Beast' (....I admit I could do with another name, but that's just me....) is pretty good for the money. IMO.

Erik

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Beast%20OTL.htm

edit: But, I'm looking at the kit price. Completely built with tubes is not cheap. High power, though, with 160 watts into 8ohms.

Recommending amps you have never heard again............ But hey I bet they fit your criteria just like low quality steak [] Rump roast sliced slimy & quickly flash burned on the broiler anyone? (caution chain saw required for human consumption)

[Audio Flynn]

And it's true, not everyone cat afford VRD or Pcats. However,

from what I heard of the T-16s and bridged SE OTLs, I think the

following from Transcendent Sound might be pretty spectacular in the

right system. If one happens to be looking for tube high power,

and in this case entirely without what some believe to be the

possible compromises of output transformers, the following pair of amps

might be something to think about. If we're comparing not only

design quality but cost of horse power, the 'Beast' (....I admit I

could do with another name, but that's just me....) is pretty good for

the money. IMO.

Erik

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Beast%20OTL.htm

edit: But, I'm looking at the kit price. Completely

built with tubes is not cheap. High power, though, with 160 watts

into 8ohms.

Recommending amps you have never heard again............ But hey I

bet they fit your criteria just like low quality steak [] Rump roast

sliced slimy & quickly flash burned on the

broiler anyone? (caution chain saw required for human consumption)

Sweet!

[maxg]

I am not so sure the forum has really changed that much at all. I think we have. Those of us that have been on for a while have generally become more and more specialized.

The result is that there are fewer and fewer threads that catch our eye. We always had a continuous influx of new users - asking basic questions - we have just seen too many of them to be able to generate the same level of excitment.

At the same time the technology moves on too. We never used to talk about cheap DVD players and digital amps because - in simple terms - there weren't any.

My interest in now primarily in analgoue source, Dean's in crossovers, Eric's in amplification. At the same time Craig has started a business making and reparing amps - possibly to the detriment of his hobby as he has indicated.

I do see much of the same general passion for audio about the place - although the nicknames may have changed in places.

Oh - and for what it is worth - I never liked the bickering - that did cost us and we lost some of our best members that way.

IMHO / YMMV and all that.

[boomac]

Flank Steak that even The Parrott would enjoy!

INGREDIENTS<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

1/4 cup honey

1/4 cup soy sauce

1/2 cup red wine

1 clove garlic, crushed

1 pinch dried rosemary, crushed

1 pinch freshly ground black pepper

1 pound flank steak

DIRECTIONS

In a bowl, mix together honey, soy sauce, and red wine. Stir in garlic, rosemary and pepper. Let stand for 15 minutes to blend the flavors.

Place the marinade and the steak into a large resealable plastic bag. Press out the air, seal, and lay flat in the refrigerator. Refrigerate for at least 24 hours, turning a few times.

Preheat grill for high heat.

Brush grill grate with oil and grill the flank steak for about 6 to 7 minutes per side. Let stand for a few minutes and slice very thinly against the grain.

[oldbuckster]

I think he ate one PREY too many, and is so full he can't fly or think straight.......He will return when he's hungry again..........try some BEANO next time you eat CROW, Oh Great Bird of Prey...........................

[Erik Mandaville]

Dean:

"and that caps, tubes, and wire effect the sonic signature simply don't want to post anymore."

Sorry, I don't find that to be at all the case, Dean.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

"Recommending amps you have never heard again............ But hey I bet they fit your criteria just like low quality steak Rump roast sliced slimy & quickly flash burned on the broiler anyone? (caution chain saw required for human consumption)"

I have listened to ALL of the Transcendent amplifiers (and preamp) except for this latest high-powered design and specifically indicated that (IN THE RIGHT SYSTEM) my feeling is that they would probably be very good. I haven't heard the amp, and I never told anyone anywhere that I recommend the component for his/her particular audio arrangement. Dean brought up Mark's amps, and the VRDs (which actually are siblings of the Pcats in some respects), and others on this forum have asked about the availability of high powered tube amplification. Rozenblit is in my opinion a talented and innovative engineeer, and I have come to learn something about his approach to design; and it was based on that knowledge, education, and experience that I suggested his so-called BEAST is probably a very good component.

I have also mentioned in the past that I thought Mark's Pcats would probably be great amps; and did so in light of the fact that, as I did with the other Transcendent products, I had some first-hand experience with other examples of his work -- in that particular case, the Peach.

I've mentioned, too, that I think VRDs are probably very good amps. I can only use the word probably because I haven't heard them for myself. I base this thought, once again, on the fact that I have heard other examples of the approach to design that went into the input/driver stage of the VRDs.

Again: For someone looking for quite high power tube amplification, the Transcendent Sound 'Beast' is designed, built, and sold by a designer who has gotten very good reviews for his work. I have heard and thoroughly enjoyed the T-16s and both stereo and bridged versions of the SE OTLs, and they were superb. Based on that experience, my belief is that his new 160watt output-transformer-less pair of monoblocks are most likely pretty good. Except for movie soundtracks, however, the stereo SE OTL had a truly surprising amount of very clean output at completely satisfactory volume levels. Rozenblit also offers kits, which makes his products all the more affordable.

Erik

C-ya! I've got an amp to work!

[Erik Mandaville]

Boomac:

I have copied that recipe! Thanks for posting, it looks really good.

[Audible Nectar]

Dean:

"and that caps, tubes, and wire effect the sonic signature simply don't want to post anymore."

Sorry, I don't find that to be at all the case, Dean.

Erik

I do.

Here's what happens if we try to have a wire/cap/tube discussion: Instead of having a reasonably-on-topic discussion, it degenerates into "Oh, you guys are nutz for hearing a difference in these things", and that kills any potential benefit to the thread. Tube threads usually do better in this regard, but when you start talking caps and wire, things die on the vine - or the pesticides show up - in a hurry. I've found most cap discussions here to be either fruitless or non-existant.

And that is disheartening, because there are benefits and differences in these items that should be discussed. Having listened to three different MC30 rebuilds (with different coupling caps), crossovers, and other components tells me that there is a whole lotta variables that are not being given sufficient attention here.

[Erik Mandaville]

You both miss the point.

I have listened to the differences such parts make myself, whether wire, a cap, tubes, a resistor, or an output transformer. Differences DO exist. In the case of a 10" long piece of wire inside a speaker cabinet, I'm no so sure.

Let me clarify for you: The argument being presented is that the DIFFERENCE that results from a part or component change is NOT automatically thus synonymous with better performance. The Horus amps I sold Sheltie Dave had very expensive caps in them, and they sounded bettter, to me, than poly or mylar types. The reason, I believe, was due to the fact that the Horus has IMO very good frequency response, and the Jensen oils I installed were simply a better match for that circuit than some others I tried. Those sounded a little strident and etched, particularly Hovlands.

I also liked the Jensens in the Moondogs, but the Moondogs used to sound more sluggish or warm to me than the Horus parafeed. So I changed the interstage coupling capacitors to something which in this particular case happened, by coincidence, to be less expensive.

The concept that higher or better parts will always result in better performance is not accurate. We have talked about that before, too. The design is the single most important element, and better parts, if they are judged to be more revealing of the character of an amp, may in fact make a poor or lesser design sound all the worse.

This isn't my second or third year dabbling in this stuff.

Another example: Cobalt OPTs in parafeed amps can be wonderful. I've heard that myself, but wasn't able to afford them. Since I sold my own parafeed amps at slightly below what I paid for parts alone, I offered to install a pair of cobalts, free of charge (minus the cost of the OPTs from MagneQuest). Cobalt transformers are NOT cheap parts, by the way. The original OPTs would have then been shipped to the new owner along with the newly-modified amps.

I also have Hovland coupling capacitors in my own preamp, because...a nice forum member gave them to me as a gift for some over-the-phone help I gave him.

That parts can and do make a difference is elementary. That the resulting difference is necessarily better as a result -- that's the part I don't agree with. Audio is too subjective, and I know too many people who have been doing this work for decades (as opposed to a couple of years) who know that higher cost doesn't always mean better performance.

Have fun!

Erik