Klipsch...ummm...differences....

[Duke Spinner]

Please continue back on topic......Klipsch...UMMM...differences.......

what ..??

you lost yer job as a moderator at AK..??

[Speedball]

Yaaaaa, I sort of sounded like one of em'....lol.

[PhilMays]

How would you guys compare the Fortes and Chorus to say the KLF-20's. As I said before, I loved those speakers. Ex-wife got them, which is OK...shes a Klipsch nut also.

Anyway, are they as open as those...maybe better...and I hate to use that word when comparing speakers.

[WMcD]

Hmmm. I was going to check out the KG line in the portion of the website which gives a comprehensive listing of the discontinued models. I don't find it. Maybe it got lost in the forum upgrade? Or I'm not looking in the right place.

Mike's list is interesting. I think it is a bit unfair to put an item at the top which is supported by massive subs. Others would get high ratings with that help.

The KG's, to my understanding, were designed by P.W. Klipsch and Gillium. They fit a price point. Generally, any pecking order follows the influences of price, size, and sophistication. As Mike quips, it is all about compromise. The KGs I've heard were darn good for the size, price, size, sophistication. For good or bad, all those were on the bit on low side.

I do tend to agree that if you don't have three way horns, the Cornwall is gem.

But let me once again raise the flag for the Chorus II, Forte II, and Quartet line as Silver described. I have the last two. These have passive bass radiators and the tractrix midrange. Plus a tweeter. They are the Three Bears of progressive size. The Audio magazine article about the tractrix by Klipsch engineers shows how they were so impressed by the tractrix that it caused the redesign of the well respected Forte, to the Forte II.

Getting back to the original subject: During the conventions Klipsch demonstrated their line starting from small to large (no, KG's were no longer in production and not demo-ed). The rooms and program material were probably favorable. But I was very impressed by how well the little guys did.

In conclusion, any budget speaker has a bit of a handicap. The small Klipsch, though, really do hold their own against their big brothers, and of course against those made by other manufacturers.

Gil

[colterphoto1]

To continue with Gil's line of thought, one time when Doc was over we did some very detailed comparison listening. The purpose started as A/B testing my LSBR's with old AL vs BEC's A/AA networks. We ended up with the following speakers closely stacked in the same general acoustic space:

LSBR AL, LSBR A/AA, CW, Chorus II, CF4, KG4, Heresy, RB5, RB3II, ksb1.1

-basically one of every Klipsch I had at the time. We did the comparisons in groups, using a Niles box with variable volumes to 'volume balance' the groupings so that efficiency was taken out of the equation. Generally the louder speaker will be given the nod and we wanted to listen to the SOUND of the speaker without volume coloring our decisions.

That day of intense comparison is where I drew most of my conclusions from. So when I say 'it depends' in answer to the LS/CW debate- I mean it really depends on what you're listening to, through my direct experience.

Doc and I really preferred the RB3II sound over the RB5 and we spent quite a bit of time with it because it puzzled us both.

The little ksb1.1 did surprisingly well- I think it's very very low cost and size helped us give it a thumbs up.

Chorus II and CF4 were pretty neck and neck as I recall, again we spent quite a bit of time comparing them and also to the CW- that was a pretty close three-way tie. I was a CW fan and Doc a CHII fan- it's no coincidence that those are the Klispch we personally own so maybe some bias.

I think given the relative list prices of all the units, the KG4 did quite well, so perhaps I was unfair earlier- I know there are a lot of KG fans out there.

If Doc could confirm or further describe our experience from that day...I think they probably play into his listing quite a bit.

I hope this clears things up a bit. As a Klipsch employee, I need to be careful of giving purchase advice, so please know that when I give an opinion, it is my opinion, but I will be honest and try to give information of this type based on direct personal experience. Specs and anecdotes color our Forum posts from time to time and I will make every effort to refrain from that practice.

One of my goals at Klipsch is to try to set up listening trials for myself, the Tech Support staff and other interested parties as much as possible. This will primarily be with new products, but I'd like to include at least one Heritage or older product that my ears are familiar with as a point of reference.

I'm going to check with Trey about polling the Forum about what type of comparison listening you'd like setup for the Pilgrimage- that will be a separate thread in the Pilgrimage section.

Michael

[pauln]

Dr Who,

I have not heard all of those speakers you listed; I had Heresys for 25 years and bought new Lascalas a little while back. I have never used a sub with anything. I've also chosen SET amplification over the other ways to drive them, and have been in music heaven since then.

I'm sort of pleased that you think the LS are tops (albeit with subs), and sort of displeased that you have them in 10th place by themselves. Are you a low bass hound, or does the music you listen to have a lot of low bass? I find the LS by themselves as totally adequate for music with SETs. I have played them with SS (including the Carver m500t 250w/ch) and the chip TEAC and thought the bass was too much. Of course, I listen only to vinyl, so maybe there is not so much to hear way down low. All my rock music sounds full down low - bass drum and bass guitar, etc.

Would it be true that your preference for the use of subs is based on your more modern bassy choice of music? I stopped buying music about 20 years ago...

Because of your top choice of LS with subs, I'm wondering what I am missing, but also wondering if I would like the result. I'm not a bass hound and find all the bass I need with the bare LS... it's nice to think I'm just one addition short of top rating, but I just don't seem to hear the need to do it. Am I a relic? Do you think I would hear a difference with my 'old' music? If I did consider it, which subs (not that I am considering it)?

pauln

[DrWho]

To continue with Gil's line of thought, one time when Doc was over we did some very detailed comparison listening. The purpose started as A/B testing my LSBR's with old AL vs BEC's A/AA networks. We ended up with the following speakers closely stacked in the same general acoustic space:

LSBR AL, LSBR A/AA, CW, Chorus II, CF4, KG4, Heresy, RB5, RB3II, ksb1.1

-basically one of every Klipsch I had at the time. We did the comparisons in groups, using a Niles box with variable volumes to 'volume balance' the groupings so that efficiency was taken out of the equation. Generally the louder speaker will be given the nod and we wanted to listen to the SOUND of the speaker without volume coloring our decisions.

That day of intense comparison is where I drew most of my conclusions from. So when I say 'it depends' in answer to the LS/CW debate- I mean it really depends on what you're listening to, through my direct experience.

Doc and I really preferred the RB3II sound over the RB5 and we spent quite a bit of time with it because it puzzled us both.

The little ksb1.1 did surprisingly well- I think it's very very low cost and size helped us give it a thumbs up.

Chorus II and CF4 were pretty neck and neck as I recall, again we spent quite a bit of time comparing them and also to the CW- that was a pretty close three-way tie. I was a CW fan and Doc a CHII fan- it's no coincidence that those are the Klispch we personally own so maybe some bias.

I think given the relative list prices of all the units, the KG4 did quite well, so perhaps I was unfair earlier- I know there are a lot of KG fans out there.

If Doc could confirm or further describe our experience from that day...I think they probably play into his listing quite a bit.

I hope this clears things up a bit. As a Klipsch employee, I need to be careful of giving purchase advice, so please know that when I give an opinion, it is my opinion, but I will be honest and try to give information of this type based on direct personal experience. Specs and anecdotes color our Forum posts from time to time and I will make every effort to refrain from that practice.

One of my goals at Klipsch is to try to set up listening trials for myself, the Tech Support staff and other interested parties as much as possible. This will primarily be with new products, but I'd like to include at least one Heritage or older product that my ears are familiar with as a point of reference.

I'm going to check with Trey about polling the Forum about what type of comparison listening you'd like setup for the Pilgrimage- that will be a separate thread in the Pilgrimage section.

Michael

Ya, you definetly hit the nail on the head...I can't believe I forgot about the CF series. It really does come down to the music you're listening to with a lot of these comparisons. And I'm glad you brought up the RB-3II versus the RB-5. I couldn't remember which reference bookshelves we compared, but it was definetly the "lesser" of the two that had a more balanced sound. Will be looking forward to your comparison listening thread... [Y]

[pauln]

You're up late Who... so what about subs for LS...?

[DrWho]

Dr Who,

I have not heard all of those speakers you listed; I had Heresys for 25 years and bought new Lascalas a little while back. I have never used a sub with anything. I've also chosen SET amplification over the other ways to drive them, and have been in music heaven since then.

I'm sort of pleased that you think the LS are tops (albeit with subs), and sort of displeased that you have them in 10th place by themselves. Are you a low bass hound, or does the music you listen to have a lot of low bass? I find the LS by themselves as totally adequate for music with SETs. I have played them with SS (including the Carver m500t 250w/ch) and the chip TEAC and thought the bass was too much. Of course, I listen only to vinyl, so maybe there is not so much to hear way down low. All my rock music sounds full down low - bass drum and bass guitar, etc.

Would it be true that your preference for the use of subs is based on your more modern bassy choice of music? I stopped buying music about 20 years ago...

Because of your top choice of LS with subs, I'm wondering what I am missing, but also wondering if I would like the result. I'm not a bass hound and find all the bass I need with the bare LS... it's nice to think I'm just one addition short of top rating, but I just don't seem to hear the need to do it. Am I a relic? Do you think I would hear a difference with my 'old' music? If I did consider it, which subs (not that I am considering it)?

pauln

I'm not sure if I would consider myself a "low bass hound" in the classical sense, but yes, I listen to a lot of music with very low frequency information. The last time I was at Mike's house I put on a song where the melody walks around the 25Hz region...it's a sparse mix so there was nothing masking the complete lack of reproduction. We listened to a lot more music on them khorns though and a lot of the oldies but goodies sounded really good. As Mike always likes to brag about, there's something about that room that has a very intimate feeling - and khorns with the right kind of music blends in very nicely.

I think I'm getting a better idea where all you "old relics" [] are coming from, but I still can't see the lascalas alone being "enough" in the bass department. The sad part is that you really need a pair of capable subs to "keep up" with the lascalas - and then a lot of patience getting things dialed in perfectly if you don't have the tools for measuring it. I guess for many it's more work than its worth because a lot of the purist 2-channel signal paths aren't even condusive to dropping in a subwoofer. But to provide an option, the Klipsch Ultra2 subwoofer package is extremely impressive and mates extremely well with the lascalas. I can think of maybe half a dozen people now that use this combination and every setup I've heard sounds amazing. It's not perfect, but you're already spending over $3k for it...

I find it vastly interesting though that you feel you have too much bass with the lascala and SET. All the joking and overboard stereotypes aside, there is a degree to which SET is not exactly dominant in the bass region and the lascalas have a very pronounced rolloff starting around 90,100Hz. I would seriously question the presence of some room acoustics anomaly introducing a resonance right around the 70,80Hz region that you happen to be extra sensitive too (since no instrument in the world resonates like that). It has been my experience that with properly dialed-in systems capable of digging down low, that if the music doesn't contain any low frequency information, that you couldn't even tell the difference between subwoofer on and off. I suppose in a way that's an argument for the lack of a need for a subwoofer, but when the next song comes on and it has information that low, it suddenly becomes extremely important. And it doesn't have to be only the latest crazy music that I enjoy....a bunch of the old classics are like this too. Pink Floyd, the Beatles, Yes...I just heard someone mentioning a sax solo by some wierd dude with 20ish Hz information that was placed intentionally because most people wouldn't hear it. I dunno - if an artists puts something on the recording, I'm naive enough to think it was important to them and I desire to have it on playback.

I'm always learning and seeing things from different angles, but I feel fairly confident to claim that determining the low frequency reproduction capabilities of one's system is absolutely vital - especially before chosing a particular speaker path to follow. Now how one determines how low they need to go is a bit more complex, especially without hearing it for one's self - not to mention the room determines most of the bass quality. I suppose that's why it's important to find people with similar tastes in music and then make judgements from their impressions. One of the first things that comes to my mind when someone asks about comparisons between speakers is "what music do they listen to?" - I used to ask all the time, but I'm from another generation and don't recognize half the stuff. But that just gets back to the observations Mike shared in regard to our extensive listening comparison...it's all about the music you're playing on the speakers.

So Phil, what kind of music do you listen to?

[DrWho]

You're up late Who... so what about subs for LS...?

looks like my last post was a 45 minute response [] I just got home from celebrating the end of a semester and totally setting the curve in one of my classes [8-|]

[oldbuckster]

The KG4 is the most under-rated speaker in the Klipsch line-up. Remember, not everyone wants to spend $1000. for a new set of speakers, not everyone is deep into the HI-FI hobby like some of you are, so at the time,$600. for a pair of Klipsch speakers was a good price. I went to buy Heresy's, but soon discovered, I couldn't afford them, so because I wanted Klipsch speakers, right then, I bought the KG4's. I am not now, or have ever been sorry I bought the KG4's, still own them.......................16+ plus years, so I have had them long enough to know what they sound like, and to me, they have been under-rated many times...................Great speaker to start your Klipsch Habit with.....................................

[colterphoto1]

I just got home from celebrating the end of a semester and totally setting the curve in one of my classes [8-|]

You go DOC! Guys- this kid is brilliant! And he's starting to dig classic rock- tres cool.

M

[Fish]

To make a long story short,to hear differences "you" must be the one to hear em'.I've had $30k in different gear in my house in the last year.Many units were rated highly and I did not like em',many were not and I did.I have 20's and 7's and have almost the opposite experience from the original post,maybe room,gear,ears I dunno.I also had rb3's and 5's,I could easily live w/the 5's as mains if need be,the 3's just could not keep up,of course only one opinion which means squat.

[PhilMays]

Who,

Congrats on the exam....I'm sooooooo glad those days are behind me. My kids are in K and 2nd....so in essance, I'm back in school, starting over!

I like most all types of music. The only three types of music I don't like are opera, country, and gospil.

This morning I listened to some Sara McGlauphlin (sp) and the CD before that was Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here. I also dig fussion Bluegrass, heavy metal (does not pass WAF in the house tough), and alternative rock.

The 2 channel system will most likely end up playing vinyl with Pink Floyd, fussion jazz, etc. I will have a tube set-up of some type, I just don't know what type as I don't have enough experience with this yet.

[Zen Traveler]

Heritage Line (never called this by Klipsch) ....

Not to be argumentative, but that's what they call them on their Website. []

[stormin]

Heritage Line (never called this by Klipsch) ....

Not to be argumentative, but that's what they call them on their Website. []

Plz do show where? I see them in the "other" category.

You realize he is talking about Chorus Forte Quartets?

The only real mistake I've seen Klipsch make is not giving such a great line a name. I mean really WTH!

[Zen Traveler]

Heritage Line (never called this by Klipsch) begat the kg line...

I assumed he was talking about what has lovingly become called the Heritage Line. Here is the rest of his sentence. [8-|]

[colterphoto1]

There was no such thing as BC time until AD came along.

[Zen Traveler]

There was no such thing as BC time until AD came along.

It's easier for me to understand the concept of CE and BCE--I never did understand the AD thing. []

[DrWho]

Congrats on the exam....I'm sooooooo glad those days are behind me. My kids are in K and 2nd....so in essance, I'm back in school, starting over!

Wow, that is a scary thought...I can't wait to get outta school, but I never thought about all the time parents spend with school while their children go through it...

I like most all types of music. The only three types of music I don't like are opera, country, and gospil.

This morning I listened to some Sara McGlauphlin (sp) and the CD before that was Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here. I also dig fussion Bluegrass, heavy metal (does not pass WAF in the house tough), and alternative rock.

The 2 channel system will most likely end up playing vinyl with Pink Floyd, fussion jazz, etc. I will have a tube set-up of some type, I just don't know what type as I don't have enough experience with this yet.

Sounds like the Cornwalls might be right up your ally. I think they're the most versatile of all the speakers out there. I think my second suggestion would be the Forte II's, but I don't think you'd be able to drive them very well with tubes. I think the Chorus II's do better on the heavy metal stuff and dominate with female vocals, but I think the cornwalls do better with the softer listening, especially all types of jazz. I don't think I would recommend tubes with Chorus II's either, but I'm sure you'll find plenty that find themselves satisfied in that department. I could see running Cornwalls with tubes though (as much as it pains me to say it) [6][] You might want to consider one of the nicer digital amps if you think you might want a blend between SS (solid bass) and Tubes (smooth mids). There is definetly a nostalgia with tubes though and I think a Scott 299B would go real well with the cornwall. Or you might consider giving Craig's VRD's a try too - though I've never heard them for myself (yet). I'll leave those recommendations to the ones that play with that gear more often though - I'm a diehard SS fan...but I also believe the room is going to make more of a difference than the amplifier topology.