DrWho Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Thanks Dean [Y] Btw, Mike...she had the mic at squawker/tweeter height about 3 feet back [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Thanks Dean [Y] Btw, Mike...she had the mic at squawker/tweeter height about 3 feet back [] Thanks Mike! Lisa for your own observation locate your MIC about 10' back and ear height(about 39 inches) on axis of the khorn with MIC pointed toward the speaker. I would expect you to see a very different reading due to the drivers having time/distance to blend and of course more room influence. At 3' you are simply to close to get a proper Reading of the blending of the individual drivers and at 10' the drivers are better blended but the room influence is going to be more influencing own your measurement. This in a nutshell is why helping you without being there to also hear for ourselves is extremely difficult and could send you down many wrong roads! mike tn[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 Hi Mike! I saved every email and post from you on this because you are certainly the Behringer expert! I managed to tweak down the irritating bits to be able to at least make things work here, but never did address the issues in the lower ranges. I put it on the backburner and planned this for my winter project but I just didn't get to it yet. Because I'm getting xovers to try in my older 1981 pair, I'm going to eliminate the DEQ so I can better compare them when they arrive Friday. IF there is some amazing epiphany (I doubt it), I'll be sending my Dean xovers back to him for a looksee and maybe if I like these Jensen PIO, maybe he can replace a cap or 2. Then I'm going to delve back into the Behringer again. The graph above was with only one speaker on. I was testing each speaker as well as from the listening position, but at the listening position - it's basically the same type of deal. But if I put the mic 10' back, how can I get a good reading on a speaker cuz then the room comes into play? The 3' reading was done at 90db per Al K's recommendation. Since that reading, we moved the khorns to another wider wall, but still get the same pierce. I'll have to do new readings on that soon. I started the thread cuz I bought a pair of '93 ak-3's and found them to be horrifying and broken somehow. I thought the tweeters were working for a while due to being clueless of what notes come out of which horn. Both tweeters are dead which stinks cuz it would be fun to compare the 2 pairs. My guess is when I get the tweeters back from Bob, they'll make me cringe as well. At least that's what I'm thinking to trick myself into have extremely low expectations of betterment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Lisa good to talk to you and as I've said before the Behringer isn't a fix all and should be used as little as possible for the most benefit from it. Once your speakers are determined to be operating properly then most likely your room is your biggest obstical to great sound. One other thing I would say to you is because of the way our ear/brain perceives sound don't be surprised if were you think the problem you feel are in the highs turn out to be caused by problems in other frequency areas due to room influences in those other areas. Use your RTA to notice what all frequency bands are involved when you perceive an audible problem. mike tn[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackpod Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Just 2 weeks ago I sent tech support an email asking the crossover points for an AK-3 in '97Khorns... response HF: 4500 Hz MF: 450 Hz Marcus C. Anderson Technical Support Specialist Klipsch Audio Technologies 1-800-554-7724 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 The information in that response is incorrect. Those are the AK-4 crossover points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackpod Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Thanks for the heads up Dean, Humm I have a question then... I have a Marchand XM9 3 way electronic crossover with plans to try tri-amping my Khorns. I should be ok using those crossover points on my '97 khorns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackpod Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 The Marchand is a 24db/octave slope, the Khorns are stock,plans are for a Mac MC7300 on the bottom, Mac 240 for the mids and either a modified St70 for the tweets or other Mac, like a pair of MC50's. I also have a pair of 511b's I want to try. I want to also try just biamping crossing at the woofer/squaker point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 It depends on how sharp your slopes are. The K-77 tweeter can't handle a lot of energy that low. Klipsch took it down to 4.5kHz, but they're also using a 6th order filter section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 Lisa good to talk to you and as I've said before the Behringer isn't a fix all and should be used as little as possible for the most benefit from it. Once your speakers are determined to be operating properly then most likely your room is your biggest obstical to great sound. One other thing I would say to you is because of the way our ear/brain perceives sound don't be surprised if were you think the problem you feel are in the highs turn out to be caused by problems in other frequency areas due to room influences in those other areas. Use your RTA to notice what all frequency bands are involved when you perceive an audible problem. mike tn[] It's around 5,500-7ish k. Mostly peak at 6k. I've moved/tried the khorns in other rooms here and it's the same. And I still question how the room could affect it if the mic is close to only one speaker with the other one turned off. Doesn't that pretty much eliminate the room influence? I can see it can influence if testing at listening position, but..... is 3 feet too far and maybe I should put it even closer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Edit: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Yep, wrong thread. I'm forwarding you an email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 No, those are not AAs, they are very similar to ALKs. The difference is a first order midrange section (instead of second order), and some slight part value adjustments in the tweeter filter so it would line up better with the squawker filter change. Al's tweeter sections are a little elevated compared to older Klipsch networks, but it ain't no freaking 5dB! I'm seriously starting to wonder if I made a mistake on those two boards. I mean, I was sucking on the crack pipe a little that night. Seriously, those need to come back to me for a look. You'll have Josh's networks to listen with while I check them out. Goog luck Dean I've been attempting to get her too send the VRD's here for a checkup for over a year now...........[] In the end I will probably end up making a house call LOL!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Schematic. Dean what is the value on the woofer inductor for the super AA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 No, those are not AAs, they are very similar to ALKs. The difference is a first order midrange section (instead of second order), and some slight part value adjustments in the tweeter filter so it would line up better with the squawker filter change. Al's tweeter sections are a little elevated compared to older Klipsch networks, but it ain't no freaking 5dB! I'm seriously starting to wonder if I made a mistake on those two boards. I mean, I was sucking on the crack pipe a little that night. Seriously, those need to come back to me for a look. You'll have Josh's networks to listen with while I check them out. Goog luck Dean I've been attempting to get her too send the VRD's here for a checkup for over a year now...........[] In the end I will probably end up making a house call LOL!! As if I was 'ever' reluctant to send the crossovers back. LOL! You don't want me to go there. As far as the VRDs, I never saw a reason to till recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 As if I was 'ever' reluctant to send the crossovers back. LOL! You don't want me to go there. Man, that was harsh and piercing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Lisa good to talk to you and as I've said before the Behringer isn't a fix all and should be used as little as possible for the most benefit from it. Once your speakers are determined to be operating properly then most likely your room is your biggest obstical to great sound. One other thing I would say to you is because of the way our ear/brain perceives sound don't be surprised if were you think the problem you feel are in the highs turn out to be caused by problems in other frequency areas due to room influences in those other areas. Use your RTA to notice what all frequency bands are involved when you perceive an audible problem. mike tn[] It's around 5,500-7ish k. Mostly peak at 6k. I've moved/tried the khorns in other rooms here and it's the same. And I still question how the room could affect it if the mic is close to only one speaker with the other one turned off. Doesn't that pretty much eliminate the room influence? I can see it can influence if testing at listening position, but..... is 3 feet too far and maybe I should put it even closer? Lisa when you decide you want to measure something you have to ask yourself what am I measuring for and setup your test for hopefully valid results. Also you must have (knowledge/or be willing to learn) the limitation of your test equipment for your results to have validity also. One of the main things to know about an RTA is your readings will always be influenced by Early Reflections because it is basically blind in the Time Domain and cannot distinguish between first arrival and later reflections and so your measurements will always be affected by this. ETF type measurement systems can be Time gated and thus under proper setup you can actually see the frequency measurement of the system without the rooms early reflections influence which when designing and balancing a speaker system is a very necessary tool. SO basically with the (understanding that with all drivers and crossover are working properly) that the Khorns's drivers/crossover were optimized with measurement methods that most of us could never approach and any imbalance that we hear is very much a result of the room and the way the speaker is interfaceing with the room. THE ROOM IS A EQUALIZER THAT OPERATES IN FREQUENCY AND TIME Domains) and it plays a very large part in what we hear from our Systems! The best we can do is work within our individual limitations to optimize the integration of the Speaker/Room Interface. In your case from what I understand you were trying to measure the Total Speaker Systems Response you must measure from a distance that allows the system's drivers individual frequency responses to fully develope and combine properly which in the case of the Khorn would be approximately 10ft back as a minimum for the MIC's Location. If you locate the MIC close to an individual driver then it's response is going to be exagerated over the other drivers in your measurements and you will be very off axis of the other drivers also which will give you very misleading results and deciding on the proper balance of the drivers aren't possible this way. mike tn[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guinness Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 I'm confused about crossing the woofer to the squawker. Both the Super AA by Dean and the ALK Universal use a first order crossover for the woofer to squawker. The Super AA uses a 2.5 mHy coil for the woofer and a 40 uF cap for the squawker. The ALK uses a 1.3 mHy coil and 48 uF cap. On paper, they both can't be right. I'm sure there's a rational explanation but, I don't know what it is. Can anyone explain? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Al applied some changes to the ALK last year -- it used to be 2.4mH/40uF. Al determined that the complex impedance of the woofer is closer to 6 ohms, and that he should also factor in the 1mH voice coil inductance. So, on the new design, the 1mH VC inductance is subtracted off of the original 2.4mH value. The change to the low pass section also necessited an adjustment to the high pass value. I'm also pretty sure the original values put the transition to the squawker closer to 500Hz, where the new design is right at 400Hz. For details, you should email Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 28, 2007 Author Share Posted January 28, 2007 Stupid AK-3 solder design! Probably already busted one tweeter trying to get the stupid cord off. The other end on the x-over looked far more daunting cuz the stupid wire talks to 2 other ones on one lead and IDK how many on the other THEN is mated with the stupid crossover part on top of it. What was Klipsch thinking? It's the most ridiculous train of thought I've ever seen. I just can't imagine someone saying "let's solder the sh*t out of everything so no lay person can upgrade their crossovers or repair a broken driver" "Oh good idea! Let's implement it". WTH? Listened to the Jensen AAs yesterday. I don't even know where to begin. And can't now cuz I'm ticked off big time at these ak-3's. I mean, wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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