I had my hearing tested today...

[RFP]

And the subtitle for this post is: "So, Why Did I Spend All That Money on JBL 2404s?"

My sweetie-pie wife of 47 years has some serious hearing loss... not a good thing for a professional musician (but then, that's exactly what caused the loss). We have decided that it's about time to get her some help in the form of hearing aids. So, she made an appointment to have a hearing test today; and while she was at it, she also made am appointment for me... so that I could have a "baseline" hearing test on file. Sounded like a good idea to me.

Well, I went in the little soundproof room, put the doo-dads in my ears, and the doc ran the test. The results were pretty much what I suppose you might expect for a 67-year old who has tried to take pretty good care of his hearing over the years. Here's how it turned out: I have superb hearing up to about 4,000 Hz. Then it begins to fall off slightly to 5,000 Hz. Then comes the big drop... at 6,000 Hz I'm down 35db. At 8,000 Hz, I'm down by another 10 db.

No wonder the JBL 2404s - crossed over at 7,500 Hz - don't seem to be doing very much!

But, you know, the music still sounds great, and I can still tell a great system from all the others. I hope that lasts a while longer!

Cheers to all,

Rob

[Guest " "]

I think most of the critcal music is between 200hz and 5000hz anyway.

[oldtimer]

I grew up in Arlington, RFP, for all I know we might know each other, or have several mutual aquaintances....

[JJkizak]

I wonder what PWK's hearing curve was like? I would like to see an avatar graph associated with each person's post on this forum. I think this would really help people understand everyone's listening tastes and equipment preferences.

JJK

[IB Slammin]

Rob,

As you know, you have about ten years on me as to age. I work in the construction industry and have protected my hearing for only about 15 years. I was tested last summer and have a bit of a dip at the very top. Age was the factor as I was told.

I run Altec 511b/902's mids atop CW bins and back off the 2404's 5db. I would think that the 2404's could wake the dead run wide open. You have very nice speakers. If you can't hear the top, try opening up the 2404's. Allow them to tweet for you.

Regards,

Terry

[Travis In Austin]

RFP,

A very timely post. Last week I was doing some tube rolling in my preamp. It had just come back from Criag and I wanted to kind of get it set up with tubes I had always like having in it. I have a 3 songs I always play in the exact same order, one minute each, for making reference tests. I was switiching tubes but unable to make out any differences in tubes I know I heard differences in not long ago. So I thought I would make a more drastic change, I had new crossovers from Dean that I was planning on switching out in my Khorns so I thought I would make those changes and see what differences I noted. NOTHING. It was very depressing to say that least, paying a lot of money for tubes that at one time made an enjoyable difference to me now sound exactly alike. New crossovers make no difference whatsoever.

I knew it was my hearing so I went and got tested last week. I am over 26 db down at 3k, 40 db down at 4k and cannot hear above that. Our kitten has a toy with a small sliegh bell type thing on it, I can jingle that thing and cannot hear it. My wife hears it fine in the next room. So I am in big need of hearing aids at 46.

I wish I had taken better safeguards on my hearing. Rock concerts have made their toll there is no doubt. Funny thing is when I started flying at age 16 I always used hearing protection. I don't know why I was so stupid not to take better care when going to concerts. Well it has caught up with me.

SO I WOULD SAY THAT YOU ARE IN GREAT SHAPE as far as your hearing goes. I wish mine was that good!

I guess, trying to look on the bright side of things, I can sell all of this expensive stuff and get an ipod and a klipsch docking system to go with it or some cool Bose speakers, and it will all sound the same.

I never try to lecture anyone about anything, just about everyone I see professionally has done someting pretty stupid and does not need a lecture from me. But for those guys who brag about listening abouve 100 db, or taking it up to 120 db is what I think I read recently, you are all idiots. Take it from me, the biggest one of them all. At least I can say that I was in an enviornment that I did not have control over, I was stupid for not taking precautions. It will lead to hearing loss, there is no question. It is only a matter of how much and how soon. THen you will be like me and hearing everything through a digital amplifier (hearing aid). Oh the best part, if you want in the ear so you can't see em state of the art digital aids, they are only 4 to 6K. You will be able to add it to your other list of cool equipment.

So my one word of advice for the young: Ear plugs

Travis

P.S. For those wondering how DeanG's crossovers sound: Don't know, couldn't tell ya. But they look real nice.

[DrWho]

I wonder what PWK's hearing curve was like? I would like to see an avatar graph associated with each person's post on this forum. I think this would really help people understand everyone's listening tastes and equipment preferences.

The problem with that reasoning is that "deaf people" hear live instruments differently too...so if we're comparing the sound of our system against that of a real live instrument, then any degredation of our ears cancels out.

This is why so many of the great recording engineers can be completely deaf, yet still are able to pick out flaws and deal with them accurately.

[Travis In Austin]

Dr.,

I think we are getting into that shocked vs. electrocuted thing again. Deaf means you can't hear. Name one great recording engineer who is or was deaf. Do you mean hearing impaired? Someone how can hear with hearing aids is not deaf.

Travis

[russ69]

Dr. Who,

I think you said it right. I have a significant loss in one ear but until I can't tell the difference between real sounds and my hi-fi, I'm still in good shape. Good listening skills are more in the brain than in the ear and experience does help more than perfect hearing.

Thanx, Russ

[Parrot]

I wonder what PWK's hearing curve was like? I would like to see an avatar graph associated with each person's post on this forum. I think this would really help people understand everyone's listening tastes and equipment preferences.

JJK

PWK was the first to admit that his hearing had considerably deteriorated as he grew old. From a Klipsch speaker owner's point of view, the Klipschorn was designed when PWK had his hearing intact, while the Jubilee was designed well after his hearing had suffered.

You really can't tell how someone with bad hearing is going to judge something. I remember many years ago when I was a teenager A-B'ing a couple of tapes of the same performance to my dad. The "A" tape was excellent and "B" had such reduced treble that it was a joke. My dad picked "B" as superior though. His hearing had been damaged from decades in an auto factory.

[Parrot]

Dr.,

I think we are getting into that shocked vs. electrocuted thing again. Deaf means you can't hear. Name one great recording engineer who is or was deaf. Do you mean hearing impaired? Someone how can hear with hearing aids is not deaf.

Travis

Travis,

I think Dr. Who is talking about all the recording engineers who have taught him everything he knows, that they are deaf.

[Travis In Austin]

Dr.,

I think we are getting into that shocked vs. electrocuted thing again. Deaf means you can't hear. Name one great recording engineer who is or was deaf. Do you mean hearing impaired? Someone how can hear with hearing aids is not deaf.

Travis

Travis,

I think Dr. Who is talking about all the recording engineers who have taught him everything he knows, that they are deaf.

I guess that is why they are teaching.

However, this did cause me to recall the post in the pro-recording forum about the guy who mixed a tune without any speakers. It of course ignores the question about deaf engineers. The famous ones that come to mind, RVG, Martin, Wilson, Parsons, Hoffman, etc., etc. all could hear fine. Still, I think the point of the original post is the hearing is precious, hearing damage is permanent, and you should protect it especaily if you are in an industry where hearing is essential. Here is the quote about the speakerless mix. Notice it was the mixing guy, not the engineer, that did it sans sound.

About five years ago, I was mixing an album here at Compass Point for Capitol Records. I was in our Studio B, on an SSL 4048. The group's material was totally unknown to me, and I would only hear each song for the first time just as we started to mix each one.

The producer (and engineer) of the material was an acquaintance whom I had known for some time; he was also an excellent studio musician, and an actual member of this group. Because he was an engineer and producer as well as I, with his own 24 track studio, we would often discuss various aspects of tracking, mixing and production; one day while we were talking about mixing, I made certain comments about the way I approached a mix, which my friend found to be slightly off base relative to the way he approached that task. One thing led to another, and before long, for whatever reason, I had made several statements which he believed to be exaggerations. So I went even a bit further, and stated to him that I was so well practiced in mixing, having done so many for so long, that I didn't even need to hear the song to get a decent mix. When he snorted that this was ridiculous, how could this be possible, I said I could tell what to do by just looking at the meters, and that I could do it in a mere fifteen minutes! (Of course I was exaggerating by this time, to try to push him a bit over the edge.) But he took it to heart, and was outraged at the thought that I, or anyone, could properly mix without hearing what one was doing.

Well, having gone this far into the absurd conversation, I couldn't back down. He insisted that I take back what I had said, or prove it; he made a bet with me that it was impossible.

So I had no choice but to follow through. I told him to pick any song he wanted to, of the ones still left to mix. He knew full well that I had not heard these songs in any form before. We disconnected all monitor speakers and had them removed from the room. All track charts were likewise taken away.

I promised that I would perform a decent mix, with levels and panning properly placed, and equalisation, compression, and reverb alloted where needed to the correct instruments or vocals in a reasonable manner; I was to record this mix to a Dat tape for playback. I did insist that he leave the room so as not to distract me; TOTAL CONCENTRATION was going to be required! So our technician and assistant engineer, Osie Bowe, was stationed in the room to police the situation, to make sure that I did not cheat in any way (such as by using headphones). Since everyone trusts Osie, this was totally acceptable to him. Of course, by now word had spread, and the whole band was anxiously awaiting the outcome.

The clock was started, and off I went. (It was only later that I found out that he had purposely chosen a song which he felt was different than any other on the album, and on which the tracking [what sound was on what track] was different than any I had previously mixed for them. Using the meters only, I deduced what instruments or vocals were what, and placed levels and panning according to what I thought they might be. I added reverb to certain things, as well as a bit of EQ and compression. I did level changes based on what the meters told me, and what section of the song I thought we were in. I was ready to "go to tape" in just under 12 minutes, which was a good thing, as the song was just over 3 minutes long. The final chord went to tape exactly at the fifteen minute mark, as I carefully lowered the master fader for a smooth ending (I hoped!) Oh, I also had made a total recall save.

Everyone filed in to hear the results. The Genelec monitors were returned, and the tape replay chosen on the monitor matrix. Then for the first time, I heard the actual song I had just mixed! Fortunately, so did everyone else. Because after one listen, we made about two tiny changes, and printed it to 1/2' so we could go on to the next song.

[DrWho]

I think we are getting into that shocked vs. electrocuted thing again. Deaf means you can't hear. Name one great recording engineer who is or was deaf. Do you mean hearing impaired? Someone how can hear with hearing aids is not deaf.

Good job, way to pick up on the slang [Y] The irony is that my use of the word still fits within dictionary definitions...but to each his own.

[DrWho]

I think Dr. Who is talking about all the recording engineers who have taught him everything he knows, that they are deaf.

Darn right - that's why I gotta rely on measurements! [Y][Y]

[Travis In Austin]

I think we are getting into that shocked vs. electrocuted thing again. Deaf means you can't hear. Name one great recording engineer who is or was deaf. Do you mean hearing impaired? Someone how can hear with hearing aids is not deaf.

Good job, way to pick up on the slang [Y] The irony is that my use of the word still fits within dictionary definitions...but to each his own.

I would have agreed with you if you had said "deaf" but you said "completely deaf." That term only has one meaning. I don't think there has ever been a totally deaf recording engineer, or a partially deaf one for that matter. If there was such I thing I would think they would probably working for the government doing transcription and restoration work. Somewhere where they did not have to listen to something and get feedback from a producer or band member as what they can to to achieve a certain sound or effect on tape.

Nevermind, you are right, it does not matter whether you have good hearing or not. You win. But please do me this one favor, protect your hearing so that you can have a long and sucsessful career. If not to hear your work as you are doing it, so you can hear the producer tell you how much he is going to pay you to do the work because you have a great reputation in the industry.

Travis

[Parrot]

Here's how it turned out: I have superb hearing up to about 4,000 Hz. Then it begins to fall off slightly to 5,000 Hz. Then comes the big drop... at 6,000 Hz I'm down 35db. At 8,000 Hz, I'm down by another 10 db.

Rob,

My condolences. But on the positive side, you can hear the fundamentals of just about every instrument's highest range and vocals. That's not so bad.

[RFP]

Here's how it turned out: I have superb hearing up to about 4,000 Hz. Then it begins to fall off slightly to 5,000 Hz. Then comes the big drop... at 6,000 Hz I'm down 35db. At 8,000 Hz, I'm down by another 10 db.

Rob,

My condolences. But on the positive side, you can hear the fundamentals of just about every instrument's highest range and vocals. That's not so bad.

Many thanks, Parrot...

Actually, my hearing is superb compared to my wife's. She frequently says that I "can hear a shadow move at 100 yards." I suppose that relative to her hearing ability, she's probably right.

Travis is right, my hearing is still very good (for my age) in the spectrum where most of the music lies... please understand that I still hear nuances when playing my system that sound absolutely spectacular to me. I guess that they would have sounded even better when I was 21, but even now I find my 2-channel "big rig" (the hybrid-Klipschorns and all those tubes!) to be greatly enjoyable and satisfying. In the end, I guess that's what its all about anyway.

And - for what it's worth - I'm siding with Travis about protecting your hearing.

Rob

[Travis In Austin]

Cool chart Parrot, I have seen it on here before but I don't think it looked as nice as that one. So I guess this means I am basically hearing a two way speaker and can't hear anything that the tweeter is producing.

:It does not look near that bad on your chart, but I am having a difficult time hearing differences in equipment that I could hear before.

Travis

[RFP]

I grew up in Arlington, RFP, for all I know we might know each other, or have several mutual aquaintances....

Are you a 'member' of the D/FW Hornheads?

[Deang]

Damn Travis, that first post of yours needs to be bookmarked by everyone here. I feel so bad for you, but please don't stop enjoying your music on your system. Hey, at least you know what you can hear is being done in grandest way possible.

"...the Klipschorn was designed when PWK had his hearing intact, while the Jubilee was designed well after his hearing had suffered."

Even when PK was young, he said he never trusted his ears. He relied on instruments to validate what he was hearing. His primary work later in life involved the Jubilee LF horn, and how much high frequency hearing do you need to listen and evaluate a bass horn? He certainly would have relied heavily on Roy and others for the HF section listening impressions -- but you can bet he was dangling the plots in front of them to keep them honest. What you are attempting to infer with your comment is laughable.