New Jubilee owner

[mowntnbkr]

Coyote,

How much does he want for the Khorns, I am in his neck of the woods and could do a local pickup and maybe an audition of his new toys.

[robertpdamato]

Based on Deans comment about the possible audible grain in the DX38 I decided to take this a few extra steps. Before I received the Jubilee speakers I bench tested the EV DX38. I found that the noise was as specified at about -120 db, I measured the harmonic distortion across the freq spectrum at about .003% which is MUCH better than specified. I also used an HP 8904A waveform synthesizer which has a excellent algorithm for random white noise. I measured the white noise as fed to the DX38 and at the output of the DX38 to a dual channel FFT spectrum analyzer and averaged the RMS readings 256 times, they were amazingly similar. I am impressed considering this is A-D D-A.. Obviously this was done with no PEQ or delay settings. Swept sine wave tests were all perfect. I did comment that I thought that I heard a slight grain with the Jubilee speakers when using analog sources that I did not hear when using the DX38 with the K-horns. I retested my hearing on this issue by trying it on a high quality headphone amp with Sennheiser headphones as well as my K-horns again. No grain in either setup. I think perhaps what it is that I thought I heard is that the 402 horns are very revealing, almost like listening to music under a 3D microscope where you can really hear the texture and pulse of your music and I am probably just hearing or thought I was hearing a slight amount of grain. Now that I have had the speakers for 3 days and I have adapted to listening to them Im no longer sure I hear any grain but just amazing detail.

Now on to the passive crossover issue. I think you could make a passive that sounds great with these speakers, however, I am not sure it would be as good as the active because you would not have the ability to properly delay the highs or add the slight PEQ needed. Id bet if you made the passive and fell in love with it and never heard the active you would be very content, thats until you heard the active! Hopefully this will clarify my comment for you. Bob

[DrWho]

cool thread, thx for posting

[colterphoto1]

Jubilees seem to be selling fairly well to consumers considering this forum is probably the only place they would find out about them : )

He actually called Klipsch direct, got ahold of Colter. Said he had Khorns and wanted to upgrade them. I think Michael told him about the Jubilees and gave Bob my name as well as me his so we could talk in some more detail. The rest as they say... is history.

[Y]

Hey Berryboy Roy! Are you keeping score? Glad that Bob is happy with his selection, I hadn't heard from him.

Thanks for assisting him with his purchase decision Richard, you're a good Forum brother indeed! []

[colterphoto1]

I was reading Bob's comments without taking not of the dates, thinking that they were over a couple of weeks time. To my amazement, most of the 'ear opening' experience was on a single day, March 3. It is a date that will live with Bob for a long long time I feel. To be so impressed that within a week he is selling his Khorns says a tremendous amount about the impact the Klipschorn Jubilees had on he and his wife. I appreciate hearing her comments as well.

Good Listening Bob! Please report in if/when you can.

Michael

[mas]

Congrats! Nice speakers!

Here, I'll give everyone something to shoot at.

If you are using speakers where any of the acoustical origins have greater than 360 degrees of offset, an active crossover with signal delay is optimal.

[Coytee]

Welcome Bob!!

Glad you decided to jump into the foray. Hopefully you'll stick around a bit & give everyone your ongoing thoughts as you have them (Jubilees) a bit longer... even if it's another week []

We're not TOO cantankerous around here... well, except for Colter, MAS, and Roy. You'll find that Parrot is one of the more staunch Jubilee asthetics supporters! []

(you know, a slight typo there and it would have sounded like I said "Parrot is one of the more staunch athletic supporters [:$])

[gaspr]

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for giving us your impressions

Bob. Always good to hear a new perspective. Please come

back and give us an update from time to time.

[rigma]

"Does that make Dean a passive aggressive?"

Ha ha. People who know me well might say so.

I'd sure like to know more about what passive Bob was running in his Klipschorns. I had a couple of people tell me the passive version Roy cooked up for the gathering in Hope sounded as good to them as the active version they heard the year before. I suppose I shouldn't put a lot of stock in that. It's depressing to think about. Going active means at least another $1500, but I can build a killer set of passives for $500 and only need one amp.

Bob's comment about the low level grain in the EV unit made me cringe. I absolutely would not be able to deal with that -- and the lower the volume the more you hear it. I'm also not like Bob, I don't like the sound of the brutal truth. Capacitors are like crayons to me, and that's exactly how I use them.

Someone needs to try the passive, and since I'm just about broke it might as well be me. Besides, not everyone is into the idea of running an active and multiple amps, and if it works out for me, maybe a few more will buy them. It does reduce price and complexity.

Dean,

I am also building passives and I have active too to compare. The passives will be massive as I ordered Solen Air Core for all the inductors. All are below the DCR Roy specified and the 2.4mh is 10 ga.solid wire and all others are Litz! Solen is winding specials for me to the values on Roy's schematic. I went with Hovaland Caps for all but the largest which are Solen bypassed with Hovaland. Your input would be appreciated. The inductors should be here in about a week & everything else is here.

Rigma

[Deang]

Nice.

I was going to use Erse Super 'Q' steel laminates for the low pass sections. Some parts I already have (covered). For the high pass sections, the Solen standard values for the air cores are close enough, easily within 5%, so I'm not going to ask them to custom wind anything. I have four 6uF Hovlands, with two measuring close to 6.2., which puts them at 5% -- I'll use those as the primaries for the high pass sections. The rest of the caps will be Auricaps, and they'll get the values spot on for me. I also have a pair of 10 AWG 2.4's that I could use, but I may not use them because of the real estate they chew up on the board. Right now, I'm agonizing over what I really want to do. Obviously I've already spent a lot of money, and I'm to the point where I don't want to spend anymore than I have to!

KPT-KHJ-LF

266-908

(2) 2.5mH

$ 30.00

266-902

(2) 1.75mH

$ 30.00

(2) .1mH

Covered

(2) 22uF/200v

$ 67.06

(2) 20uF/200v

$ 64.66

(2) 6uF

Covered

(2) 2 ohms

$ 7.00

KPT-KHJ-HF

(2) S102.4

Covered

(2) S142.4

$ 36.81

(2) .1mH

Covered

(2) S141.8

$ 35.00

(2) S146.2

$ 59.04

(2) 35uF/200v

$ 95.92

(2) 6.5uF

Covered

(2) 5uF/200v

$ 24.14

(2) .82uF/600v

$ 26.78

(2) 8 ohms

$ 7.00

(2) 9 ohms

$ 7.00

(2) 0 - 4 ohms

$ 7.00

[seti]

Nice.

I was going to use Erse Super 'Q' steel laminates for the low pass sections. Some parts I already have (covered). For the high pass sections, the Solen standard values for the air cores are close enough, easily within 5%, so I'm not going to ask them to custom wind anything. I have four 6uF Hovlands, with two measuring close to 6.2., which puts them at 5% -- I'll use those as the primaries for the high pass sections. The rest of the caps will be Auricaps, and they'll get the values spot on for me. I also have a pair of 10 AWG 2.4's that I could use, but I may not use them because of the real estate they chew up on the board. Right now, I'm agonizing over what I really want to do. Obviously I've already spent a lot of money, and I'm to the point where I don't want to spend anymore than I have to!

 

 

KPT-KHJ-LF266-908(2) 2.5mH $        30.00 266-902(2) 1.75mH $        30.00 (2) .1mH Covered (2) 22uF/200v $        67.06 (2) 20uF/200v $        64.66 (2) 6uF Covered (2) 2 ohms $          7.00 KPT-KHJ-HF(2) S102.4 Covered (2) S142.4 $        36.81 (2) .1mH Covered (2) S141.8 $        35.00 (2) S146.2 $        59.04 (2) 35uF/200v $        95.92 (2) 6.5uF Covered (2) 5uF/200v $        24.14 (2) .82uF/600v $        26.78 (2) 8 ohms $          7.00 (2) 9 ohms $          7.00 (2) 0 - 4 ohms $          7.00

 

Obviously you can start passive listen for a while and then down the road try active. I thought both active and passive in Hope sounded amazing unfortunately it was a year between listening and my listening memory is not that good. That being said I walked away from both sessions thinking dam those are among the best speakers I have ever heard. Congrats no matter what decision you make you win.

[sfogg]

Dean,

That passive will cost more then a Behringer....

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-669

Then if you just feel the need to spend more money on it check out:

http://www.selectronic.fr/dcx2496_us.asp#04

or

http://www.pilghamaudio.com/index.asp?pgid=37

Shawn

[Coytee]

Coyote,

How much does he want for the Khorns, I am in his neck of the woods and could do a local pickup and maybe an audition of his new toys.

Check your PM's. I do not know what his asking price might be. I've sent you his email address and you two can discuss.

[Me Loves Khorns]

So, for the guys running actives, what amps are being used for the high and low ends.

Tubes? SS?

Paul

[Coytee]

So, for the guys running actives, what amps are being used for the high and low ends.

Tubes? SS?

Paul

I think Mike is running Cary (?) tube amps on both sides. He's running a push/pull 2A3 setup. I don't know how many watts he's got per channel.

No clue about Ralph in London although I seem to recall he did post pics of his setup.

No clue about Dean... probably a bose wave radio, with slightly modified outputs? [A]

Bob has stated (via what I copied/posted of his comments) on the first page of this thread. He's running about 100 wpc on the bass bins and 50 wpc on the HF, both class A.

I'm running solid state dbx BX-1 amp, bridged to about 450x2 wpc on the bass horn. My plug ugly K-402 is being fed with a McIntosh MC-2102 (tubed at 100x2 wpc)

I've been debating on trying (again) an SE-OTL amp for my K-402 but not so sure how I'd deal with the huge disparity between it at 4 wpc and the power available to the bass.

As it is, I gotta say my setup sounds pretty darn good (as I'm SURE the others do...especially Dean's to be, with the bose radio setup [6])

If you want it at live levels I'm sure all can provide that simply because of the Jubilees abilities. If you want to REALLY snap the pants on your legs, well... c'mon over.

[Y]

ps: if you want to continue yesterday's attempt, I'm at the office now

[kaiser SET say]

Congrats Bob, I think you have your next 30 year + speaker set[]

I like Seti heard them active (2006) and then on Roy's early proto passives (2007) and based on the one cut we all heard both trips (Hotel California off the Hell freezes over disk) and I could not hear much of a difference at all in the two networks however I'm sure with longer sessions and different material the active would have started to jump out in certain areas for sure[^o)]

I like the idea of starting off with passives as you have time to recoup and get a active plan in order. Like has been mentioned already I'm pretty sure if you start with passive (especially if they are going to be built like Dean's with top shelf parts) you might never miss an active network unless as was said you hear then running that way but you never know[]

[kaiser SET say]

Hey Coity Coytee[A]

Why not move the MAC to the bass bens and then put your OTL-SET to the tops and maybe you will have a more even keel

[Deang]

Dean,

That passive will cost more then a Behringer....

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-669

Then if you just feel the need to spend more money on it check out:

http://www.selectronic.fr/dcx2496_us.asp#04

Shawn

This might be the better way for me to go. Start with base unit, then go ga-ga with the mods. Then push the whole deal with a couple of crappy chip amps.

[PrestonTom]

I think Shawn's suggestion to use a Behringer has a number of advantages. I suspect it will end up sounding quite good.

I have not used the DCX, but I have used the DEQ2496, which has comparable components. My recommendation has a number of assumptions and I need to be straight about it since I have not actually used the DCX and I do not yet own a Jubilee.

First, the Behringer has a problematic reputation. However, if you get one that is working properly, they are fairly quiet and neutral. There is a caveat. If you use an analog source (or even a CD after the its own DAC), then there are many ways to mess up and have a problems with quantization error (although with sigma delta modulation, the unit will be more forgiving). Shawn has posted some good advice on how best to "maximize the bits" if you insist on not giving the Behringer a digital signal. This is important, since I suspect it solves many of the problems others may have had (if you don't know what you are doing, an extra ADC stage can really mess things up - beleive me I have had years of experience on how to mess things up).

Second, the ability get a fairly steepish filter with the Behringer is big plus. This will eleiminate some comb filtering which can be quite audible

Third, the abilty to time align with the Behringer (or another active crossover) could be a big plus. I have not actually heard the comparision yet, but some knowledgeble folks (engineers who I trust) claim to hear the improvement. I am also aware of the literature on this topic (actual science & not internet anecdotes) and the time shifts (from mis-alignment) probably are in the range of audibility (it is a little tricky since the research literature is not large and some of the measures & comparisons are not always apples-to-apples).

So there are two reasons to go with an active crossover, but what are the disadvantages. One the Behringer is proabably a great a value (performance divided by price), although there are other units which may sound even better but they are certainly more expensive. The DACs on the Behringer are a good make (and probably better than what most have at home). The modulation is sigma delta, which is a good thing. The op amps at the output may be a problem, I am not sure... Again, my Behringer DEQ, which shares a comparable circuit, sounds fine. I have no reason to think they are any worse than what is on most home equipment.

So another possible disadvantage is that that you will now need an extra amplifier. Not all is grim. You will now have the possible advantage of bi-amping (I assume you were not bi-amping with the passive crossover). Many, many threads have demonstrated that folks are confused about bi-amping (what it is and what is the advantage). I do not want to get us side-tracked in that morass. However, it effectively gives you more head room and consequently can eliminate some distortion. At the very least, you can get away with a smaller amp or one that has a less exotic power supply.

So my last assumption is that even if you had to use a "lesser" amp, the adavntages provided by bi-amping & the extra headroom, steepish crossovers, and time-alignment will far exceed any problems from having to pay for an extra "lesser amp". In all fairness, my assumption is based on the notion that the difference between amps is modest (especially when bi-amped) compared to the possible benefits outlined above.

This is not to get into an argument about "how much better" certain amps sound, since I am rather skeptical. There a many good sounding amps available at a reasonable cost, and they even sound better when they are driving an easy load over a narrower bandwidth resulting from the bi-amping and an using high-efficiency transducer.

I guess what I am suggesting is that the Behringer (if set up properly) is a great value (performance / cost) and you do not need to break the bank when buying a second amp.

Now that I have said that, many will rush in and start recommending mega buck amps (and active crossovers) that you absolutely must get (price is never an issue, it seems). But the promise will be, as it always is, that the "sound stage" will be expanded, the "details" will be "revealed", the sound will be "unveiled", the bass will be tighter, the "coherence" will be improved, the "imaging" will be whatever ....

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Coytee]

What about the BLOOM??????????????????