Moderators Amy Posted March 13, 2007 Moderators Share Posted March 13, 2007 Wow, this is quite a thread. It's taken up most of my morning. Even though it leans a bit on the same-old-argument side, I think there is some good information here. I would like to see the end of the personal insults, childish name calling, and sarcasm from this point forward. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 My experience with tube gear is somewhat limited but is this. I have K-horns and Lascalas. I tried two tube amps on the K-horns. One was a 5wpc and the other was a 100 wpc Carver. My friend paid $4000 dollars used. The 5 wpc amp sounded different. I had a Technics reciever at the time. The tube amp ran out of steam too soon and the sound changed as I approached my normal listening levels. As I got into home theater I bought a Harmon Kardon 7200 which I really like. A friend wanted to hear his 100 watt Carver on some horns. To be honest, in two channel mode I really could not hear any difference between it and my HK. He thought maybe it needed new tubes because he said they burn out. After learning about all the maintenance these require I really don't think I would bother with tube gear. My HK is five years old and sounds the same as new without being touched. Tube gear deteorates with each use. My 2 cents. Well, there are tube amps, and then there are tube amps. This is no different than SS amps. Some just happen to be better than others. I too have a nice SS rig with a Denon 4800 being used as a pre/pro, and an Acurus A200X3 amp driving the front soundstage. Without question it sounds nice. Especially when playing the higher res formats (SACD, DVD-A and DTS concerts), but it don't compare to my 60 watt tube amps for overall detail, clarity and realism. Of course, ymmv... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 SS deteriorates with each use as well. The parts simply aren't as easily replaced. There are 40 and 50 year old tube amps running like new today - find me SS equipment worth a damn after 15 years. I have two tube amps I can reference as well. One is vintage 1959 and showed up with the original tubes and has kept on playing with no need to change tubes and is auto-biasing. I have a newer Opera with its original tubes. Plug and play. Adjusted bias initially and never needed to adjust it. As an aside my latest purchase was an early 60's vintage set of monoblocks. I also have SS equipment. There is little maintenance I must do and most effort is simply altering the character of the amp by swapping in different tubes as the mood strikes me. Do that with SS. Anecdotal evidence and generalizations should be given and taken as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I want the last 30 minutes of my life back that I just spent reading the diatribes in the last couple pages. Cut out the BS and there might be something there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 My experience with tube gear is somewhat limited but is this. I have K-horns and Lascalas. I tried two tube amps on the K-horns. One was a 5wpc and the other was a 100 wpc Carver. My friend paid $4000 dollars used. The 5 wpc amp sounded different. I had a Technics reciever at the time. The tube amp ran out of steam too soon and the sound changed as I approached my normal listening levels. As I got into home theater I bought a Harmon Kardon 7200 which I really like. A friend wanted to hear his 100 watt Carver on some horns. To be honest, in two channel mode I really could not hear any difference between it and my HK. He thought maybe it needed new tubes because he said they burn out. After learning about all the maintenance these require I really don't think I would bother with tube gear. My HK is five years old and sounds the same as new without being touched. Tube gear deteorates with each use. My 2 cents. Chambers, I whole heartedly agree with your assessment of the Harman-Kardon. I have used a couple of their interated amps (a common design with their other stuff) and one of their receivers. The build quality is good and they are fairly indestructable. One of the common attributes is that the power supplies are nicely built and they can deliever high levels of current when needed (although, the heritage speakers are efficient and do not present a low impeadance to the amp, so perhaps this is overkill). What is really nice is that they tend to be quiet amps, which is a real plus with a revealing speaker like a K-Horn. Many folks around here like the the older X30 series which featured a dual power supply. They really seem to be a great value (Performance divided by Cost). Good Luck, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I want the last 30 minutes of my life back that I just spent reading the diatribes in the last couple pages. Cut out the BS and there might be something there..... You can't read just the final chapter of a book and fully appreciate the work. All you'll do is find out how it ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Wow, this is quite a thread. It's taken up most of my morning. Even though it leans a bit on the same-old-argument side, I think there is some good information here. I would like to see the end of the personal insults, childish name calling, and sarcasm from this point forward. Thanks You're showing admirable restraint. You're the anti-AK. Which insults did you find the best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 You can't read just the final chapter of a book and fully appreciate the work. All you'll do is find out how it ends. Sometimes the entire book isn't worth reading and cliff notes will suffice. In a nutshell, lets dispense with the thousands of words and break it down simply: The sound you hear is the result of a system of components and the positive or negative relationships between those components. The old way of assembling a system is dead and tired (this is repeated every other sentence.) The new way suggests these relationships can all be measured bridging the gap between objective and subjective criteria. However, objective data and subjective data are still both needed to make a proper evaluation. The new way is not fully understood and we don't really know what it can do for us... but it has all manner of potential. You can't debate the new way because the old way is dead even though we don't fully understand what the new way means and we can't put our hands on the old way. The substance of all the posts only took a paragraph and doesn't exactly convey a lot of new or innovative information and no practical application to be seen... and didn't answer the posters original question. In this case, the cliff notes version was preferable... unless you enjoy the name calling and childish insults.[] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 You can't read just the final chapter of a book and fully appreciate the work. All you'll do is find out how it ends. Sometimes the entire book isn't worth reading and cliff notes will suffice. In a nutshell, lets dispense with the thousands of words and break it down simply: The sound you hear is the result of a system of components and the positive or negative relationships between those components. The old way of assembling a system is dead and tired (this is repeated every other sentence.) The new way suggests these relationships can all be measured bridging the gap between objective and subjective criteria. However, objective data and subjective data are still both needed to make a proper evaluation. The new way is not fully understood and we don't really know what it can do for us... but it has all manner of potential. You can't debate the new way because the old way is dead even though we don't fully understand what the new way means and we can't put our hands on the old way. The substance of all the posts only took a paragraph and doesn't exactly convey a lot of new or innovative information and no practical application to be seen... and didn't answer the posters original question. In this case, the cliff notes version was preferable... unless you enjoy the name calling and childish insults.[] You just described quantum mechanics. Sorta. I guess you are still looking for the single numerical answer. And many of the others, they are simply looking for a meter that they can hook up and it says "pass/fail" or "good/bad". Or they will refer to a book if it contains "The Answer". I think many are actually looking for religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Mas, I am one of the people on the forum who get to play with quantum physics. Tell you what, I'll make a deal with you. I'll post a spectrum of a uranium or plutonium survey, if you will post a Heyser spiral spectrum of a Klipsch speaker, with a SS/tube amp setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I want to see Heyser Spirals and Nyquist Plots of uranium and plutonium spectrums. I have a project in mind, and can't decide which to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 I want to see Heyser Spirals and Nyquist Plots of uranium and plutonium spectrums. I have a project in mind, and can't decide which to use. Dean, I am sorry I have to do this. You are a nice guy. However, when I see this I am obligated to place phone calls to the FBI and Homeland Security, and the Ohio State Police. Don't take it personally, but these veiled threats of terrorism are everyone's business. Sorry to have to do this, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 LOL! You're too late Tom, I'm already on their list. Yeah, I'm sure that post would go over big with the Federal Investigators who are in the process of renewing my clearance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Mas, I am one of the people on the forum who get to play with quantum physics. Tell you what, I'll make a deal with you. I'll post a spectrum of a uranium or plutonium survey, if you will post a Heyser spiral spectrum of a Klipsch speaker, with a SS/tube amp setup. So how's the new job near Joliet treating ya? I didn't know you were doing quantum physics stuff....way cool [Y]I too would be interested in some applications of all the crazy theory. I know of plenty of crappy amps that don't mate well with Klipsch and I know you've got some Crown K2's which mate well with everything and its mother. What kind of gear is needed to do this measuring? I'm sure there's some lab equipment on campus I could borrow to experiment with some stuff on my own. I'll prob learn more that way anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Still waiting for my clearance, Dean. Here is some of the good stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Gotta let the Uranium play as well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Time for the cheese! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 And many of the others, they are simply looking for a meter that they can hook up and it says "pass/fail" or "good/bad". Or they will refer to a book if it contains "The Answer". I think many are actually looking for religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Here is some of the good stuff... Never mind the graph, Sheltie, just let us know what would give us the best bang for the buck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 Plutonium will give you the bigger bang, but it is pyrophoric, and the machined scrap has a marked tendancy to ignite and burn. You'll need an inert gas continuous quench bath inside your milling hood, or crank the Belles really high in the Parrotavian lair. The pressure wave will act as a spark arrestor, something the spiral does not measure[] Right now I am trapped in the dreaded government Moibus logic trap. We can't store measurable amounts of plutonium in unsecured areas. The HEPA fan loft is in an unsecured area. The HEPA filters have Pu buildup. Because this is not allowed in unsecured areas, I can not start measuring what may be there. How fast does the African swallow fly, did you sayyyyyyyyyyyy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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