How would you compare VRD's to a MC 275

[Deang]

I'm curious about some things, namely -- the size of your room, how far off the speakers you sit, the kind of music you like, and how loud you normally listen. Lastly, make sure you leave enough money for a good preamp -- it will make or break the sound.

[two dot]

Dean,

Currently (but subject to change) my room is 12X17 with the sweet spot about 10 feet from my Cornwalls.

I listen to a lot of old blues, rock and some jazz.  I like to listen at concert levels.

No neighbors, no wife, no kids, no tv, just 2 channel music.

I plan on an appropriate pre also.  Either Mc 220 or maybe JM.

Thanks for your help.

Stephen

[Piranha]

Lastly, make sure you leave enough money for a good preamp -- it will make or break the sound.

What are you using?

[Deang]

What are you using?

No preamp. Do as I say, not as I do. Getting the best sound at low SPL's has different requirements than getting the best sound at high ones -- at least, that's what I've decided.

Stephen -- based on that info you can pretty much go in any direction you want. VRD's are 60wpc and the pCAT's are 20wpc -- but your room isn't huge and you're right on top of the speakers. I haven't heard the pCATs, but I'm thinking there are times you might benefit from the extra power the VRD's provide. I'm assuming by "concert levels" you mean 100db steady state, and you're using Cornwalls, not Klipschorns (big difference).

[Duke Spinner]

.

I listen to a lot of old blues, rock and some jazz. I like to listen at concert levels.

No neighbors, no wife, no kids, no tv, just 2 channel music.

do you need a roomate ..??

[CaptnBob]

I have some pristine MC60's, and I must confess that my VRD's sound considerably better.

What Gilbert said. Many classic designs are great amps, and the final decision should be made by your ears and not by prestige or reputation. In my case, of the classic designs, I prefer the "Marantz" sound to the Mac sound. That being said, I sold my beloved Marantz 8B after I found a pair of VRDs that I loved. Of course, the caveat of my ears, my equipment, my speakers, yada, yada, etc.

And some really love the sound of the MC 275 or similar Macs. We all have different preferences.

Carl.

Carl,

You sold the 8b? I told you you had a standing offer of $100 cash money in Susan B. Anthony dollars for it. I'd have even thrown in a half dozen Sacagawea dollars.

Oh, well, back to the Hadley...

Bob A.

[CaptnBob]

I have some pristine MC60's, and I must confess that my VRD's sound considerably better.

What Gilbert said. Many classic designs are great amps, and the final decision should be made by your ears and not by prestige or reputation. In my case, of the classic designs, I prefer the "Marantz" sound to the Mac sound. That being said, I sold my beloved Marantz 8B after I found a pair of VRDs that I loved. Of course, the caveat of my ears, my equipment, my speakers, yada, yada, etc.

And some really love the sound of the MC 275 or similar Macs. We all have different preferences.

Carl.

Carl,

You sold the 8b? I told you you had a standing offer of $100 cash money in Susan B. Anthony dollars for it. I'd have even thrown in a half dozen Sacagawea dollars.

Oh, well, back to the Hadley...

Bob A.

[sheltie dave]

Bob, he really didn't sell it, he traded it for two Shetland ponies. The neighbors are now missing two ponies.

You are welcome to borrow it when I get it back from Craig.

As far as the 275 vs. the VRDs, MC240s, Mackit 30s, and MC75s have gone head to head with the VRDs in my basement, and I still have the VRDs. The 8B is good enough to get its own system upstairs, but not with the Blueberry/Khorns downstairs yet.

[cjgeraci]

What Dave said. You know that I wouldn't just ship it off to an unknown buyer - nary to be seen again. As you know, Marantz 8Bs are special amps, and I have an emotional attachment to that one. But, sometimes you gotza do what you gotza do.........

At least I will get to visit it at times.

Carl.

[Audible Nectar]

Yet another "take".......

I also think the MC60s are a better comparison with the VRDs.....KT88 outputs with tube rectification make the MC60 more similar to the VRDs than the other Mac amps, IMO. We'll get to the 275 later......

IF you rebuild an MC60 pair with GOOD capacitors and properly chosen parts, I think you can get sonics in the VRD "ballpark". Many MC60s have the original caps, or are rebuilt with "less than best" capacitors....and those versions won't likely best a new set of VRDs (they'll be in the neighborhood, but bet you pick the VRDs). But use REALLY GOOD parts in those MC60 rebuilds, and they will be very close in quality of sonics.....just minor differences in signature. But VERY similar.

However, to get that parts quality you will spend a small fortune. Try about $1300-1500 worth of work (which includes about $700 in small signal coupling caps alone) to bring an MC60 pair fully into the 21st century and best sonics. Those vintage Macs send your signal through more stages than a VRD does.....so you must think "weakest link" in terms of those caps. So you spend 2500-3000 sourcing a pair of MC60 plus the rebuild, and you got 4K in them after rebuild - EASY. Spend about 3K or a little less on a new pair of VRDs (and that will get you the premium caps, too) and you'll never be sorry sonically vs any Mac. If you want vintage Mac for other reasons (collectability/aesthetics), you can squeeze better sonics out of them than typically reported on forums, but be prepared to throw $$$ at them on rebuild for the really good parts. Most aren't willing to take this "gamble".......but having been fortunate to listen to several Mac amp samples with varying degrees of parts quality, I can attest to what these vintage amps can deliver when you really "dress them up" inside. But you gotta REALLY love Mac amps to have a job that pricey done on a pair........and doing cap samples in vintage amps is a very "experimental" endeavor.

MC60s vs.275: I mention the MC60 instead of the 275 because of tube rectification, which is really a better direct comparison vs the VRDs. All versions of the 275 are solid state rectified, which can at times exhibit "undesireable" characteristics on horns in particular. The SS rectified Macs (like the 225, 240, 275) can exhibit more "hardness" and at times a more "heavy footed" bass response. An MC60 or a VRD will handle that bass with proper authority, yet with the proper weight balance, and fleet footedness due to the large power supply. Some like the added bass weight of SS rectified amps, too, but I tend to lean toward tube rectified amps. When it comes to Macs, I prefer MC30s and MC60s for that very reason.

If you are wanting of Mac, the NEW MC275 Mark V might be an option, too - an updated version with SS rectification. I haven't heard one of these.

The VRD has an advantage in the manual biasing. The Macs "work around" the matching to an extent - so there is some flexibility in using less than optimal matching outputs, and use a form of auto bias. If you are into NOS tube use, have fun finding matched quads of tubes for those! I like my output tubes matched in my Macs.....you get a little better focus/tightness to the overall presentation when doing so, even though there is room for mismatching on Macs. With VRDs, though, you can dial that bias in manually and perfect. It's not an "end-all-be-all" issue, but one who seeks to squeeze the most out of thier gear/performance might be aware of this.

The VRDs sound very good on current production (read: low cost) tubes. If you want to use NOS tubes, you'll need less of them. The vintage Macs seem very wanting of the NOS brand tubes, the new Macs are reported to like the stock brand tubes Mac furnishes for them.

I own VRDs as well as "rebuilt to the hilt" MC30s. I have MC30s for some of the best midrange on the planet, and I have VRDs for the best overall total presentation with the added bass authority that the MC30s do not have. The VRD was conceived specifically for a Klipsch Heritage or similar user, because the normally preferred feature list of a Heritage Klipsch push pull tube amplifier in new product didn't exist three years ago (particularly tube rectification in a bigger power/KT88 push-pull design, where before the tube rectified amps used here on forum prior to the VRD were either vintage, or SET/300B). The VRDs basically rewrote the Klipsch forum 2 channel amplifer landscape in terms of push-pull. There is a reason so many here have them - they are tailor made for the purpose for which they were built......clean, clear, push-pull power on HORNS. Clear, liquid, powerful.

There are, of course, other choices in push-pull amplification for big Klipsch (like Mark Deneen's new PCATs, and then there are other topologies, too), but for similar performance, "fit to the horns", and power cost more than VRDs do. You can meet or beat them (and maybe get a "name" unit made by a large or more recognizable company), but get yer wallet out. If Mac made a 275 in a tube rectified design, I might well own one of those. Since that does not exist, the VRD was my "bigger power" solution (and I think it the best design for my use anyway). They are REALLY GOOD amplifers. Blues? Rock? Hehehehehehehe.........

Hope this helps some.......

[NOSValves]

Yet another "take".......

I also think the MC60s are a better comparison with the VRDs.....KT88 outputs with tube rectification make the MC60 more similar to the VRDs than the other Mac amps, IMO. We'll get to the 275 later......

IF you rebuild an MC60 pair with GOOD capacitors and properly chosen parts, I think you can get sonics in the VRD "ballpark". Many MC60s have the original caps, or are rebuilt with "less than best" capacitors....and those versions won't likely best a new set of VRDs (they'll be in the neighborhood, but bet you pick the VRDs). But use REALLY GOOD parts in those MC60 rebuilds, and they will be very close in quality of sonics.....just minor differences in signature. But VERY similar.

However, to get that parts quality you will spend a small fortune. Try about $1300-1500 worth of work (which includes about $700 in small signal coupling caps alone) to bring an MC60 pair fully into the 21st century and best sonics. Those vintage Macs send your signal through more stages than a VRD does.....so you must think "weakest link" in terms of those caps. So you spend 2500-3000 sourcing a pair of MC60 plus the rebuild, and you got 4K in them after rebuild - EASY. Spend about 3K or a little less on a new pair of VRDs (and that will get you the premium caps, too) and you'll never be sorry sonically vs any Mac. If you want vintage Mac for other reasons (collectability/aesthetics), you can squeeze better sonics out of them than typically reported on forums, but be prepared to throw $$$ at them on rebuild for the really good parts. Most aren't willing to take this "gamble".......but having been fortunate to listen to several Mac amp samples with varying degrees of parts quality, I can attest to what these vintage amps can deliver when you really "dress them up" inside. But you gotta REALLY love Mac amps to have a job that pricey done on a pair........and doing cap samples in vintage amps is a very "experimental" endeavor.

MC60s vs.275: I mention the MC60 instead of the 275 because of tube rectification, which is really a better direct comparison vs the VRDs. All versions of the 275 are solid state rectified, which can at times exhibit "undesireable" characteristics on horns in particular. The SS rectified Macs (like the 225, 240, 275) can exhibit more "hardness" and at times a more "heavy footed" bass response. An MC60 or a VRD will handle that bass with proper authority, yet with the proper weight balance, and fleet footedness due to the large power supply. Some like the added bass weight of SS rectified amps, too, but I tend to lean toward tube rectified amps. When it comes to Macs, I prefer MC30s and MC60s for that very reason.

If you are wanting of Mac, the NEW MC275 Mark V might be an option, too - an updated version with SS rectification. I haven't heard one of these.

The VRD has an advantage in the manual biasing. The Macs "work around" the matching to an extent - so there is some flexibility in using less than optimal matching outputs, and use a form of auto bias. If you are into NOS tube use, have fun finding matched quads of tubes for those! I like my output tubes matched in my Macs.....you get a little better focus/tightness to the overall presentation when doing so, even though there is room for mismatching on Macs. With VRDs, though, you can dial that bias in manually and perfect. It's not an "end-all-be-all" issue, but one who seeks to squeeze the most out of thier gear/performance might be aware of this.

The VRDs sound very good on current production (read: low cost) tubes. If you want to use NOS tubes, you'll need less of them. The vintage Macs seem very wanting of the NOS brand tubes, the new Macs are reported to like the stock brand tubes Mac furnishes for them.

I own VRDs as well as "rebuilt to the hilt" MC30s. I have MC30s for some of the best midrange on the planet, and I have VRDs for the best overall total presentation with the added bass authority that the MC30s do not have. The VRD was conceived specifically for a Klipsch Heritage or similar user, because the normally preferred feature list of a Heritage Klipsch push pull tube amplifier in new product didn't exist three years ago (particularly tube rectification in a bigger power/KT88 push-pull design, where before the tube rectified amps used here on forum prior to the VRD were either vintage, or SET/300B). The VRDs basically rewrote the Klipsch forum 2 channel amplifer landscape in terms of push-pull. There is a reason so many here have them - they are tailor made for the purpose for which they were built......clean, clear, push-pull power on HORNS. Clear, liquid, powerful.

There are, of course, other choices in push-pull amplification for big Klipsch (like Mark Deneen's new PCATs, and then there are other topologies, too), but for similar performance, "fit to the horns", and power cost more than VRDs do. You can meet or beat them (and maybe get a "name" unit made by a large or more recognizable company), but get yer wallet out. If Mac made a 275 in a tube rectified design, I might well own one of those. Since that does not exist, the VRD was my "bigger power" solution (and I think it the best design for my use anyway). They are REALLY GOOD amplifers. Blues? Rock? Hehehehehehehe.........

Hope this helps some.......

Dave,

Wow great post very thorough! One thing the MC-60's that Gilbert owns were completely and meticulously rebuilt by me so Gilbert's comparison is pretty darn fair and of course his opinion.

[NOSValves]

I bet I could bury one awful quick and without much effort even in my small room [] Heck I can do it with a VRD which has 60 watts steady state. Of course this is really stretching the envelop and something I almost never do. I'd also like to see where this music power rating comes from and how it was measured. I've never seen a true Class A amplifier have much if anything reach above its rated steady state power without enormous distortion numbers in the 10 to 20% plus range. But many folks describe the point where this distortion just begins to set in as loud when in reality its just plain painful because of the distortion produced by zero real usualable headroom. When talking to someone that wants concert level sounds in a realistic manor 25 watts is just not even remotely a reasonable number even with Klipsch Heritage and Cornwalls being one of the worst of the line as far as sensitivity and power required. I think on this subject not a single Klipsch engineer would argue against my point. By the way what are the distortion numbers of the Pcat at full rated output?

Craig

[Deang]

When talking to someone that wants concert level sounds in a realistic manor 25 watts is just not even remotely a reasonable number even with Klipsch Heritage...

Really? To get 100dB steady state at 12 feet away you need 13 wpc. This also factors in 3dB of headroom and is for one speaker only. If want to go louder add another speaker.

[stormin]

Probably added my opinion where its not wanted or needed but Craig stated realistic concert levels Dean. 100db wont get er done. Concerts run 115-118. Now a 425wpc @ 8ohm 20-20 can get ya concert levels with leaving about 300 watts of headroom[]

I'll take my spl to the Tool concert where I'll be stationed on the floor and give ya some realistic feedback.[]

Some of us rock and some of us sit on the porch[:|]

Disclaimer: Waits for all the stone throwing[:S]

[Audio Flynn]

Probably added my opinion where its not wanted or needed but Craig stated realistic concert levels Dean. 100db wont get er done. Concerts run 115-118. Now a 425wpc @ 8ohm 20-20 can get ya concert levels with leaving about 300 watts of headroom[]

I'll take my spl to the Tool concert where I'll be stationed on the floor and give ya some realistic feedback.[]

Some of us rock and some of us sit on the porch[:|]

Disclaimer: Waits for all the stone throwing[:S]

Sounds like a reasonable subjective assessment.

[Guest " "]

stormin

" Now a 425wpc @ 8ohm 20-20 can get ya concert levels with leaving about 300 watts of headroom "

From my view, even with extreme slope xovers, thats a pretty large reserve. I can run 320 per channel (continuous @8 ohms) in bridge mode on my Onkyo NX-NR1000 but I typically find I use my 130 watt per channel tube amp at 1.3 watts if I am in the same room, and never more than 13 watts even if I am a few floors up. I do find that some reserve power above my max listening level is a plus, but I am not sure if thats really an architectural issue more so than a functional one. Sample questions... is it really having more watts or the fact that more watts spans more output transitors or output tubes and uses larger capacitors? Would a 25 watt per channel amp that uses 2 tubes per channel sound the same at 10 watts as a 100 watt per channel amp at 10 watts that uses 4 tubes per channel, etc, etc, etc. What about on the input side.....would a tube amp with 4 input preamp tubes per channel sound the same as one with 2 imput preamp tubes per channel? Are less devices better? Are more devices better?

[NOSValves]

When talking to someone that wants concert level sounds in a realistic manor 25 watts is just not even remotely a reasonable number even with Klipsch Heritage...

Really? To get 100dB steady state at 12 feet away you need 13 wpc. This also factors in 3dB of headroom and is for one speaker only. If want to go louder add another speaker.

Put down the calculator and the formula's and get into the real world that just does not work out and you know it.

[NOSValves]

stormin

" Now a 425wpc @ 8ohm 20-20 can get ya concert levels with leaving about 300 watts of headroom "

From my view, even with extreme slope xovers, thats a pretty large reserve. I can run 320 per channel (continuous @8 ohms) in bridge mode on my Onkyo NX-NR1000 but I typically find I use my 130 watt per channel tube amp at 1.3 watts if I am in the same room, and never more than 13 watts even if I am a few floors up. I do find that some reserve power above my max listening level is a plus, but I am not sure if thats really an architectural issue more so than a functional one. Sample questions... is it really having more watts or the fact that more watts spans more output transitors or output tubes and uses larger capacitors? Would a 25 watt per channel amp that uses 2 tubes per channel sound the same at 10 watts as a 100 watt per channel amp at 10 watts that uses 4 tubes per channel, etc, etc, etc.

fritz,

How are you determining just how much power your using? I hope your not going to reply saying some cool little meters on the front of the amplifier or something similar. It's almost impossible to measure the true power usage in the musical passage no affordable easy to use on the fly instruments exist that can keep up with the quick demands of music.

Besides the original poster was the one to mention true concert level sound with his musical preference. To reach true concert levels your not going to do it with 13 watts with any klipsch heritage speaker without extreme distortion. Headroom galore is an absolute necessity.

Craig

[Audible Nectar]

Dave,

Wow great post very thorough! One thing the MC-60's that Gilbert owns were completely and meticulously rebuilt by me so Gilbert's comparison is pretty darn fair and of course his opinion.

I absolutely respect Gilbert's opinion on this - but I do have a question. Those were the russian green caps, correct? Now not to disparage those green caps in any way, as they are good caps, but caps like the Sonic Craft Platinums are VERY resolute and clear sounding caps, and will likely squeeze a bit more out of the components they are installed in. So for the person dead set on restoring a set of Macs, they might consider that a top flight/high end cap choice would squeeze a bit more out of them.

But as mentioned before, those caps and the associated restoration would consume the cost of one VRD monoblock, so the prospective buyer might decide that the simpler/purer/more direct VRD circuit is a better choice anyway. You would have to "soup up" the Mac with super premium parts to get that more complex circuit to "clean up" like the VRD sonics do.

Oh, and speaking of cap upgrades: The platinum cap in the VRDs is NOT a subtle upgrade either. Heard my friend's VRDs last night, and WOW does that top section open up nice! Not to mention tighter bass - just a complete upgrade sonically. Even his fiancee was impressed. If you want my take, EVERY pair of VRDs should have those caps. GOOD STUFF.

[cjgeraci]

Dave,

Wow great post very thorough! One thing the MC-60's that Gilbert owns were completely and meticulously rebuilt by me so Gilbert's comparison is pretty darn fair and of course his opinion.

Oh, and speaking of cap upgrades: The platinum cap in the VRDs is NOT a subtle upgrade either. Heard my friend's VRDs last night, and WOW does that top section open up nice! Not to mention tighter bass - just a complete upgrade sonically. Even his fiancee was impressed. If you want my take, EVERY pair of VRDs should have those caps. GOOD STUFF.

Yes, good stuff from Craig. [][]

Carl.