Has anyone not liked their Klipschorns and replaced them?

[J M O N]

I love you guys that think the K-55 and K-77 are "high-end" drivers. The K-55 is a paging driver, and the 50 year old K-77 is barely a tweeter by modern standards. Do we want to get into a discussion about the deficiencies of the K-400? So, the Klipschorn has clarity -- relative to what?

I'm not sure anyone claimed Klipsch drivers are "high-end." That PWK was able to use inexpensive drivers and get the kind of sound he did is one of the genius behind his designs.

But clarity, yes they have tons of clarity relative to other non-horn speakers. Clarity is one of THE attributes of horn speakers -- the others being dynamics and high efficiency. The clarity comes from the horn design -- a horn design requires much lower diaphragm movement, resulting in lower distortion, and thus higher clarity. Lack of clarity is non-issue with my Khorns.

Af far as the original question, there are quite a few people that have replaced their Khorns (or at least sold them). That is the reason there have been so many out there on the used market. I think the majority of the reasons have been due to size, weight, and placement issues. People that lose their corners may no longer want to continue storing their Khorns in the garage. I think many of those that sell their Khorns eventually wish they hadn't.

[LarryC]

For Classical --- Khorns sound the most like the orchestra I played in

This is where I come down -- Klipsch sounds more like music than any other speaker for me. Nor do I think that pursuing clarity for its own sake is necessarily better -- while the Crites tweeter's several benefits included a greatly increased clarity all the way down into the deep bass, probably through better overtone production, I thought they didn't have the natural musicality of the K-77's. In particular, the character of the increased clarity didn't blend with the lesser clarity level of the K-55's, so the Crites tweets mostly called attention to themselves rather than forming a seamless sound of music. Similarly, I don't think the larger image size of the magnificent Altec mid-horns fits well with that of its other drivers. So, I don't take it for granted that drivers and horns with a more impressive level of clarity, a different image size, or some other characteristic that sounds impressive by itself, will automatically generate greater musicality.

[ZAKO]

I think by now every one here knows my opinion on this thread.

[Deang]

Yeah, but why not say it for the 1000th time like the rest of us have to do.

[ZAKO]

Sigh !!!!!!!!!! I could just recommend The Jubes.

[soundbound]

For me the old alnico K-55, K-77, and K-400 are good enough. The K-55 may not be fancy, but it does a fine job. The K-77 may not go as high as other tweeters, but it is sweet enough and blends very well with the other drivers. I tried the 511B horn and found for me it disbursed the mids too much. I replaced my diaphragms, woofers, and crossovers to Bob's new AA versions, because mine were old and had been abused. I got my Klipschorns local cheap knowing with the added cost of the updates it would still give me a good value. Is the Klipschorn perfect? Maybe not. Can it be improved on? Can't everything? I do not think PWK just threw a bunch of stuff together to sell. He was a genius in my mind. When I listen to my Klipschorns it's proven to me every time! I'm glad I'm at a point where I'm enjoying the music in sonic bliss and not chasing that perfect audio nirvana that some never stop chasing and may never find.

[garyrc]

Dean and others,

Before starting, I have to say I haven't heard the Jubes, and haven't heard Beck's tweeters.

I don't know if the qualities of the K-77 that I like so much can be measured. I like their realistic warmth and clarity, without being over-zingy or too muffled.

Yeah, the K-77 is about 50 years old. It's interesting how the various horn tweeters, including the K-77 (and T-35) have gone up and down (and for some, back up) over the years. I'm not sure what year the K-77 got the Avedon loading plug, that either smoothed it out, extended its range to around 16 -- 17 K, or both.

In the 1970s I remember John Curl (later the design genius of Parasound) sitting in Berkeley Custom Electronics (where he then worked) touting the K-77 over most other tweeters, especially over the JBL "orange juice squeezer" 075 ring radiator. The K-77 sounded (and, under the right circumstances still sounds) very pleasant and a little sweet, but the 075 sometimes tended toward harshness. Curl claimed the K-77 was smoother, and at least one other engineer (name escapes) reported a big resonant peak in the 075 at 11 K that the K-77 didn't have. It may not have been the peak (if present at all); over the years, I've wondered if the 075 was just merciless with bad program material, because it (and the K-77) can sound damn good with very undistorted recordings (usually open reel tape, in those days). The 075 morphed into the 2402 (sounded about the same) and a version with a diffraction slot that narrowed its dispersion in one plane, the 2405 (used in the ubiquitous JBL 4350 studio monitor). I heard many of these in studios in the 70s and 80s, and they sounded fine. But the K-77 sounded "warmer." I never heard a cone or dome tweeter that I really liked during those decades -- horns were the only real sounding ones, at least to me. Later, as dome-like or modified conish tweeters were made out of (purportedly) better materials, with better designs, they improved, but my favorites (e.g., B&W) still seemed to lack depth, somehow, and didn't reproduce of cymbals realistically, or have the airy free floating quality of horns. True, a bad violin recording can sound less offensive on a cone or dome.

I think the K-77 has been "voiced" differently at different times, and in different speaker systems. I like the K-77 (M or F) a little better as they are used in the Klipschorn than in the Belle, but that could be a height and axis issue (?), and a lot better than in the older Heresies -- the ones that still used the K-77. I borrowed some K-77 using Heresies for a big project once, and they sounded much duller than the Klipschorns and 2402s that were in the same room.

Every once in a while, a new audiophile friend, who inevitably owned various higher end speakers would come over to my place and be surprised at the good sound coming out of the K-77s, saying something like "Wow, listen to those great highs," or in one case, while fingering the grille cloth over the tweeters, "Have I got a deal for you!" This even happened where I worked, where I had a carefully adjusted "home brew" system using K-77s (actually, in a T-35 incarnation).

[IB Slammin]

Most folks I know that have replaced their Khorns have done it with Cornwalls. They prefer that bass punch vs horn loaded. No point in replacing Khorns with Belles or Lascalas (unless for room purposes) since they are so similiar.

I still don't understand why so many are replacing their tweeters. To me it takes away from that great live, gritty sound that drew me to Klipsch in the first place.

Although I have my Khorns in a room that is way too small (only 12 feet apart), I still love them. I hope to have my room remodeled within a year so I can spread them out another 4 - 6 feet. I'm also glad to have Cornwalls upstairs and would probably keep the Corns if I had to choose. They're just way more versatile.

Here I go again. Oh my. This may be my last post on this forum.

I ran a system in the '70's that was waaay above my pay grade as a student. I had friends in key positions that worked in a little town in south AR.[]

It was the day of Quad and I ran two Khorns flank, two LaS center, and two LaS rear. Empire W/B&O cart, 7T pre, couple of DC300's, Dyna Quad adaptor (less was more in quad) and DBX.

I now run heavily braced Cornwall bass bins, with Altec 511b mid horns and 902-16A drivers, with JBL 2404 baby-cheek tweeters, and custom networks and tweeter attenuaters.

In my room, and with all due respect to my audio mentor, PWK, I would put them up to any Khorn. Granted, I have not listened to the 60 anv. Klipschorns in my room. But then in the USA, who has other than Klipsch? However, I think the Indy group will in a few weeks.

My chosen preference in PWK speakers is not about the kind of music that one listens to, but about the way that all music sounds. Musical "slam" does not just apply to AC/DC, Jimi, Audio Slave, or a synphony, but to everything at concert volumes. If we say that we want musical reperduction to sound live, then it must.

I have owned, and still could run six PWK horn loaded bass bins as I did in the past. Why would I opt to go with the PWK designed reflex bins today? It's the live 'slam factor"girls. Be it as inaccurate as it is, PWK's reflex is a "boot in the chest like no other", IMHO.

So I answered your question, ........ you got it in spades.....

PWK's bass horn does not have the slam that his reflex designs have....JMHO

All that said........the Jub's .....I have not heard them all, but the Jub is the best bass horn I ever heard........OK, its the best speaker I ever listened to......very accurate, huge SPL's, and a slite "bloom" that equates to that reflex "in your chest Slam" of the above referenced Cornwall bass bin sound.

tc

tc,

I think you are agreeing with me but I'm not sure.

Gary, there are times that it is difficult for me to agree with...............ME[8-)]

...............I'm also glad to have Cornwalls upstairs and would probably keep the Corns if I had to choose........................

We do agree on this one, and on many other things. No matter how many times I swear-off making the above referenced post in public, and especially at this place, I continue to do so. I have never said that the Khorn, LaS, & Bell were a POS. They are all beautiful speakers, and better than most horn loaded units. If we factor in the cost, they are the best IMHO. Having run Khorns & LaS together in Quad, (two bastar$ Mod-H before) I ordered a pair of vert decorator CW's in '73. As flanking two channels, I thought that they sounded more like PWK's Corner Horns than the LaS or Bell. In retrospect, I must have been focussed on the LF extention that LaS and Bell were lacking. In '75 I ordered my second pair of CW's in oiled walnut. (WAF) Before 1999, I would have "gone to the dirt" with anyone that might suggest that one could better the orignal PWK Heritage products. Years later, a (fourm) buddy in Boulder sent me an up-graded set of CW networks at no charge. He did this in effort to change my antiquated philosophy. I installed them, and the CW's sounded better. A lot better.

I have listened to stock (with ALK netwotks) Cornwall 1's in the last few years, and they sounded wonderful to me. They sounded like CORNWALL, but dressed up for a party.

For years, I thought:

The ill's of the Cornwall was always of the nasty little K-600 horn needed to fit in the box. Ever crank a CW, (or Klipschorn) only to back it off due to mid horn hash? When my thinking got past the depth of the CW box, the speaker got better. Much better.

Cornscala (a CW bin with a K400 horn) was getting there. Hell, It did get there. Not only for two channel, as was the concept, but in a multi-channel HT application, they are an increcdable bang for the buck. But, the Cornscalla is short and a bit deep as is the LaS. But get the stuff up to ear level, so that you can look down the the horn throat and see the driver, things become a bit more intense.

The Alcorns, a heavily braced CW1 bass bin, with an Altec 511b mid horn and 902-16a driver, crossed at around 400-450 hz, a JBL 2404 tweeter on top. With my stuff and in my room? It's like my old drag-racing days. I have a $100.00 bill that says that I will have any and all takers. Bring your Khorns(i have good corners) and if I don't blow your doors off, I will pay. And you be the judge to boot[H]

all said to answer the orignal question.

tc

[Modified-Tractrix]

If I had unlimited room I would have kept almost all of my Klipsch speakers, at least a pair of each, how fun it would be to drag out a different pair every week and have a listen, but alas my back is not cut out for this type of torture any more. I have been a "Loveroklipsch" since that first time my father took my into a wonderful room that only had one pair of speakers in it, Klipschorns, driven off a small Marantz amplifier and a Dual turntable. I was hooked, my dad decided on the ESS AMT-1A's instead. I vowed to one day have a pair. I got a job when I was fifteen years old and saved every penney, soon a pair of raw birch LaScala's arrived in my 10'x10' bedroom. My parents, bless their hearts never complained or asked me to turn the music down. Alas, audio bliss for many years.

I sold my LaScala's and bought Klipschorns, sold the Klipschorns and bought Belle's, sold the Belle's and bought another pair of Klipschorns, keep the Klipschorns and bought Cornwalls, Cornwall II's, Choruses, Chorus II's, Forte's, Forte' II's and countless other speakers including many Altec speakers, A-5's, A-7's, Model 19's, Model 15's. Also a few ADS speakers including the 1530

I could never put my finger on why the Klipschorn would be it one day then put in the closet the next. I think it all comes down to that darn K-77. It is a horrible tweeter. What people think of as revealing is distortion from this bad boy. There have been many attempts over the years to tame this beast, felt glued against the horn on the inside, different crossover tricks, foam , you name it, with mixed results. Also, the lack of upper bass kept me from true audio nirvana. So instead of modding, all the heritage went away except two pairs of Cornwalls. Now Crites has a tweeter, ALK has a crossover, maybe these would have got me to a good place.

It all boils down to what I was happy with out of the box. For me it is the Chorus, and Forte' line. There are no caveats like the Forte' or Chorus are a good speaker for the money they are good speakers period. They are better than a Klipschorn, Lascala, or Belle out of the box. I would like to hear a modded Klipschorn to compare them against, maybe I would fall in love again. I wish the K79 was efficient enough for the Klipschorn as it is a much better tweeter.