Putting the speaker tweaking cart before the electronics horse.

[Conductor]

Ok, so most of us here know how sensitive the Klipsch Heritage speakers are to electronics ("If you dont like whats going in..etc.), but how many of us found this out only after mega tweaking our speakers. I resisted all the tweaking that can be done to my Klipschorns until I had lived with them for a while and tried different components. I am glad I did. I first used a pair of ASL AV8's and a Foreplay pre. I tried various tubes in the Foreplay. (nice, but some sibilance). I tried an Odyssey Stratos with the Foreplay (great Bass, too harsh). I then bought a Conrad Johnson CAV-50 integrated. (Great detail, delicious midrange, sparkling highs, tight bass, airy, absolutely quiet, but again, some sibilance. I was ready to start tweaking the Khorns, but decided to roll some of the tubes in the CJ. I didnt have any 6sn7's or EL34's on hand, so I tried various 12ax7's..Bugle Boys, Mullards, Sylvania gold brand 5751's..still some sibilance. Tonight I found some grimy old RCA black plates with square getters. They tested good so I cleaned the pins and stuck them in. The sibilance all but disappeared with no loss of detail, and vocals seemed even more palpable. It was a jaw dropper. I no longer feel the need to start tweaking the Klipschorns (but, of course, I will). I guess my point to all this is; Get the electronics right, or as close to right as you can, first. Then start tweakin' the speakers. Little things can make a big difference. I can't wait to get the RCA 6SN7 VT231's I have coming to replace the Sovteks.

ATTN: Mobile H.

I WILL try DHSET amplification someday.

I MAY have the CJ triode wired.

I DO plug the CJ into the wall.

This message has been edited by Conductor on 12-27-2001 at 02:08 AM

[jazman]

Conductor,

Let me start by agreeing with you. I had the horse before the cart.

When I first hooked up my Belles, something was missing from the sound I had never forgotten from my first audition of a pair many, many years ago. My first thought was to bi-wire to achieve the musical

definition I believe is there. Thank goodness I posted on this site for advice. Mobile immediately suggested improved amplification. The more I've read these last 2 weeks, from so many sources, the more convinced I am that it's the correct path to explore first. I am about to begin my "electronic" journey, seeking to sweeten the sound of my Belles. No tweaking the speakers, instead I am revising my equipment inventory, then will try tweaking the upstream electronics which will be mostly tube based. I'm new to tubes, learning more each day, but willing to learn as I journey(sort of like on-the-job training). Rolling tubes seems to influence the sound from Heritage series speakers.

It's got to be easier with the horse in front!

Klipsch out.

PS. I've got to do an AA page soon.

This message has been edited by jazman on 12-27-2001 at 05:04 AM

[Malcolm]

I don't think its a cart before the horse situation. I think its pretty much a given that old Klipsch speakers benefit from simple tweaks like higher quality crossover parts and damping metal horns. And speaker tweaks are generally a lot faster, cheaper and easier than getting the rest of the system right. So, why not start there, and get it out of the way? Getting the rest of the system just right could take a lifetime, especially with tubes.

[mobile homeless]

I read about people in here all the time who start modifying their vintage Klipsch speakers without even listening to them for a proper amount of time to get a handle on the sound. I think it is extremely wise to listen and get accustomed to the sound of these speakers, especially if you are not familiar with the horn sound. Indeed, it might just be foolish to assume to get rid of that ancient Type B oil cap crossover in favor of something modern when one might be extremely satisfied with the simple Type B, even in comparison with the modern equivalent upgrades such as the ALK.

And ultimately, I think it really is best to wait till you get some quality amplification and sources before you start modifying since the quality of the driving gear has a big impact on the way you will interpret how to go about modifying these vintage speakers. I have now tried my 77 Cornwalls with various types of amplification... from single-ended triodes, to push-pull vintage Williamson designs, to quality solid state. Up to this point, I have elected to keep my Cornwalls bone stock to get a handle on their character. With quality tube amplification and sources, the bone stock, Type B crossover Cornwall with Alnico sounds very good.

What am I considering modifying? At this stage, the only things I am contemplating is the dampening of the horn (although I am concerned about how much), some Cardas binding posts to replace the screws, and rewiring internally with some quality solid core. I am keeping the Type B crossover as I find it very musical with plenty of natural detail.

I think much of the harshness that people complain about can be attributed to poor solid state, mediocre tube designs, harsh digital sources, or inappropriate room placement/setup.

kh

s y s t e m

Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point

Rega Planet

Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico

system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-28-2001 at 07:17 AM

[Randy Bey]

Kelly,

that sounds like a goodly amount of tweaking and I would probably stop after that.

Spend another 20 years or so before going any further. Then decide.

BTW,

I am beginning to understand your propensity here. The old AA is about as amusing as dry toast lately.

[Colin]

the shame of my experience is that no body at any of the stereo stores that I went to was any help in solving most of the problems that I had with my big old horns, I would have to say that it was this forum and the Internet that got me back into the stereo tweaking hobby a few years ago, the Cornwall Is and the B2 crossover seem to have a vicous bounce back at about 5 kHz that is barely dampened, although favorably so, by rope caulk on the horns, which I believe even BobG recommended, but which no one at any stereo store either knew about or could steer me in the right direction, only testing with a SPL meter made me realize the extent of the problem and reading here lead to possible solutions ...

------------------

Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

[Relic]

Good morning all,

I'd like to say that I believe the front-end of a system is absolutely where its heart is. Yes, I have rope caulked my '78 Cornwalls and changed the internal wiring to braided Cat-5, but that's all they need, unless the paper-in-oil caps on the crossovers are leaking. I have experimented with my ASL1003DT by converting it to triode operation and using the 4 ohm taps; it's now OUTTA THIS WORLD! The presence, detail, and sheer lifelike quality of the music is totally unbelieveable. I don't have any outrageously expensive front end sources, either: Pioneer TM1 CDP with Blue-Tac'd crystal, Rega P3/DV10x4(nuded)/Lehmann B/C, and a Sherwood tuner. If I had some "really" good stuff, I don't know if I could handle the sensory overload, quite frankly. (Just kidding, I plan on purchasing SACD in the near future). My analog setup will remain in place, however. As far as amplification goes, do not underestimate the neccesity of using quality tubes (good driver tubes especially). Well, enough rambling. Have yourselves an exceptionally Happy and Prosperous New Year!

[jazman]

I'm repeating this latest post I've made to my original posted question, "Bi-wiring Belles". I think it applies here.

Mobile,

First, I must say a HUGE Thank You to you and all of the contributing members of this thread. I have connected the HF-81. What a difference the amp makes! Did I say what a huge difference the amp makes?

Ok, I wont repeat it again. For all those who dont believe that quality low wattage tube power can make a difference, I can say that Im truly blown away with the difference in the sound from my Belles. I preceded connecting the HF-81 with playing a CD of acoustic Jazz (Joe Henderson so near, so far). Played it after connecting. WOW! Theres so much more music to be heard. The instruments are rich and alive. The sound fills the room with warmth. I could babble on and on. Mobile, you are correct about this combination of tubes and Heritage line! Lookout world, Ill be selling all my other speakers to add a pair of Cornwalls and Klipschorns, using tube power. Thanks to mobile also for the HF-81 tip. Im so happy with what it has done for my speakers. It may be the best $200 Ive ever spent. Im presently listening to Terrence Blanchard, Lets Get Lost with female vocalists Diana Krall, Jane Monheit, Dianne Reeves, and Cassandra Wilson. It will be hard to leave home when I have music like this playing inside.

Klipsch out.

This message has been edited by jazman on 12-29-2001 at 02:44 AM

[Randy Bey]

Colin,

if your speakers have something like an AA network in them, (or even if they don't), examine the circuitry for a 2.2uF cap (a big oil can) attached between the signal lead of the tweeter and ground.

Change that cap to a 6uF electrolytic (or oil can if you can) or add another 4uF cap in parallel with it.

That will put the kabosh on your 5K peak.

[chuckears]

I have owned my Fortes for 13 years now... for the first ten, I drove them with a 120-watt Carver amplifier ( and Carver preamp). I was fairly happy with the sound (until I split my speaker cables connection by going through a switching box), then I realized that I wasn't listening to very much music, and was buying more cdroms than music cds...

I had been operating under a false assumption, propagated by the deaf (and now deceased) publisher of Stereo Review, Julian Hirsch: he had written time and again in his columns and reviews that there was no discernable difference in sound between different amplifiers of roughly the same power output (I think he relied strictly on numbers, his own ears being incapable of anything like fine sonic discrimination).

Fortunately, I began to develop the upgrade bug about a year and half ago, and was FLOORED when I hooked up the McCormack DNA-1. I have been so pleased with the results of a year of tweaks (including the addition of the Hsu Subwoofer, and better interconnects, Yes Virginia, they do make a difference), I have once again began to purchase more music and am wearing out the spot on the sofa where the sweet spot lies.

My latest purchase of the Adcom GCD700 cd player actually proved to be a step backward... it helped me to discover the meaning of the word "fatiguing" as it applies to audio enjoyment: the sound from the player was very clear, and the output was louder than my older Sony changer, but it was hard to listen to; it was the "digital" sound I have discounted as being the product of a bunch of Old Vinyl Farts refusal to accept the new age... I have since gone back to my six year old Sony cd player, but am looking at the Ah! Njoeb Tjoeb 4000 as a possible replacement.

The condensed version of this discourse is, "Yes, I agree, the front end does make a huge difference."

------------------

Klipsch Fortes, Oiled Oak

McCormack DNA-1 Power Amp

McCormack TLC Pre-Amp

Adcom GCD-700 CD Player

NHT SA3 Subwoofer Amp

Hsu TN1220 Subwoofer

Old Akai cassette Deck

Akai AAR22 used as tuner

Nordost Solar Wind interconnects

Kimber 4TC Speaker Cable

[djk]

The playback chain is exactly that, a chain.And as such every link in it is important.Most of the speaker mods on this forum consist of damping resonances of some sort.Mechanical; in the horns and cabinets, and electrical; in the crossovers.Thinking you can fix a resonance by tube rolling and other such ilk is akin to thinking you can fix an engine problem in your car by waxing the paintwork.The biggest problem for most people is deciding what to work on next, ie identifing the weakest link.

[mobile homeless]

Tube rolling can dramatically change the parameters of the signal being fed into the speaker, hence it is akin to attacking a possible weak link. Your analogy is a bit off the mark as well. Surely, no one thinks you can actually "fix" a resonance within the speaker by replacing an amp, changing a cap in the preamp, swapping cable, or getting a new cartridge. On the other hand, running a decent tube amp with a bevy of Chinese input/driver tubes will make the sound appear glassy as a Maine lake in February. Dont underestimate the benefits of tube rolling. Equipment selection does amazing things with horns, even more so then non-horn speakers.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-30-2001 at 10:21 AM

[mike stehr]

I'm totally ignorant to this subject, so

excuse me.

While I know it's important to have a good

quality tube with the essential parameters desired,

but doesn't circuit design topology of the

rest of the amp play a major role in the

overall sonic achievements?

I know quality of the transformer, and when

there are trannys used for output, are a couple things.

I know tube rolling is very important, but OTOH, IMO,

tube rolling can be not such a good thing

if the basic circuit design topologys of the

rest of the amplifier suck.

But like I headed, I'm totally ignorant to this topic.

THANX!

[mobile homeless]

How can we come full circle? The preceding post just strengthens the overall point I (and Conductor) was trying to bring home. With excellent amplification and sources with attention and detail paid to both, one will find the modification bug and the supposed faults of the Klipsch vintage horns to be far less intrusive, mainly because many of them are actually SOURCE AND AMP related with mediocre designs bringing out the ugly side of the horn that is practically ameliorated when quality gear is used upstream. Yes, the horns do have faults...and some of these can be helped with mods such as horn dampening etc...but many of the faults that users attribute to these vintage speakers are actually symptoms of and reactions to the **** going IN! My BONE STOCK Cornwalls sound as smooth and musical as silk with NO harsh ringing and ugly piercing highs unless fed more mediocre recordings. The idea that mdeneen relates about most of the average SS devices CALL for tone control is just what I have been saying. One shouldnt begin modifying these beasts without getting the mess upstream situated first, as some of these needs for mods are actually coming from the piss poor dreck in the chain. In all actuality, many have yet to hear what these STOCK vintage horns can really do with top notch gear.

And when you hear that annoying sibilance and start thinking your horns are rearing their ugly horrible innerds, take a look OUTSIDE the box first. You might be trying to fix the wrong end.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-31-2001 at 04:17 AM

[djk]

Homeless has a pair of Cornwall with type B networks, 6dB/oct. http://www.klipsch.com/ubb/uploads/ak-3.gif This is a newer style Klipschorn network. All the newer speakers have some variation of this, including the beloved AA network used in pre-'82 Klipschorn/Belle/LaScala.If you break the connection between the 2µF cap and the 500µH inductor you will disable the elliptical portion of the filter and your network will look more like an AA network (and it will not sound as sibilant on female vocals).You could go all the way back to a type A network and replace all this with a single 2µF cap.This is what a type B network does.Power handling will suffer though, I wouldn't run an amp bigger than 50W.Remember that the type B network drops the level to the tweeter, thus giving the system greater power handling.Is 6dB/oct the optimum for the Klipschorn? No.Because the midrange and tweeter are not coincident, ie a point source or even in the same plane time wise, a 2-1/2 octave wide series of peaks and thoughs exist at the crossover point.Going to an 18dB/oct high pass on the tweeter reduces the amplitude of the peak to trough ratio and the bandwidth it affects.But isn't the type AA network 18dB?Yes it is.But it is an equal response ripple Chebychev, it rings.The best way to deal with this is to go to a maximally flat Butterworth type.Replace the 2µF, 125µH, 2µF with 2.2µF, 175µH, 6.8µF and delete the 2µF, 500µH (only found on the newer networks).Add a 27R 2W resistor in parallel with the tweeter, this helps damp the filter.

[Randy Bey]

I took DJK's advice and updated my 2uF tweeter cap to 6uF (actually added two 2.2uF Hovlands I had).

This, more than anything, took a 5-6K peak out of my in-room response curve. For that I will forever be in DJK's debt. Next time I'm in Cedar Rapids, it's the CR Brew pub!!! (Ever had their ribs?)

I would agree that 'gross' problems are often speaker/room related. I would also agree that wires, cables, etc. are 'tweaks' and don't produce profound changes, only minor ones. You don't staunch a bleeding artery with a q-tip.

I am disinclined to mess with my crossovers any further. What I have is quite good. In that respect I am content.

I think Kelly is correct in pointing out that many (many, many, many) complaints about horns -- and Klipsch in particular -- comes from people running them with Crown amps and trying to pump 200 watts through them. Most references to khorns involve playing Edgar Winters 'Frankenstein' at 130db. Huh. Even me, your lowly author, once relished my khorns for their high db abilities. My brothers reminded me of this (oh, how far we travel in this life) when they visited for xmas and talked only about 'feeling' the music from my stereo. "Hey, I can feel my buttons vibrating" they say.

While I never heard any changes in tube rolling it may be because I rolled the same tubes with different names -- vt229's v. 6sl7's -- and haven't reall changed anything at all. Next stop is some 6591's for me.

[mobile homeless]

Randy, I cant believe you are not getting any changes in sound via your input tubes and the Laurel IIx. I will admit, it is the kind of subtle change that is the difference between the presentation appearing more harmonically rich and/or refined...IOW, not a earth shattering change in low end etc. But still, the changes with my Moondogs drivers produced a noticably better sound in this regard. The stock Philips JAN 6SN7 have NOT been back in since. I actually hear very different presentations with changes in gear and wire. Lately, I have discovered that the Creek passive just doesnt have the bloom and midrange richness that a good tweaked tube preamp like my mod Cary SLP-70 exhibits. Audrey and I both agreed that the Cornwalls sounded more pleasing with the Cary and the Creek is finally off the rack after switching back and forth when the mood hit (I even believe the stock Cary is an improvement).

djk, I have seen your discussion of this mod from Randy in past. How would this be performed with a simple Type B using the vintage oil caps? See below pic (one I had done comparing the ALK with Type .

Thanks,

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-31-2001 at 11:00 AM

[mike stehr]

Are those PIO cans Aerovox or Revox's?

I scrounged a pair of those off a couple

of 1977 Digital printers, they were the

bypass caps for the transformers.

Hell, they are even 2uF! 660v.

I wouldn't think that Type B network would

fare to well with solid state amps, Tubes, yes.

I figure tubes with a Cornwall is better off

with the stock X-over network.(Or them fancy Jensens.)

With AL K's network? IMO, this would be better

off with Solid State amps, I think, I geuss, I don't

know?

Would Al's network sound good on Tubes?

(That seems to be the million dollar question.)

My two cents?, you got valves, PIO capacitors

and tubes have been hand in hand since our freinds

at Bell Labs got together.

The designs of new Thermionic devices are

mostly what? Designs from the old days!

(With some differences, of course.)

Makes sense that the high tolerance PIO cap

works so well, of course I can't forget that the

PIO caps have tighter tolerances now.

Bad iron will make for a bad valve day, also.

But doesn't everyone agree that the prices

for 'audio grade' capacitors in general,

are totally ridiculous?

IMO!

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[Randy Bey]

Kelly,

I don't have a type B schematic, but it looks much like a type A to me. If that is the case, one of the PIO's is a 13uF and the other is a 2uF. The 2uF connects to the tweeter. That would be the guy to change.

Forgive the size, I have no freaking idea how to control image size in UBB!!!!

This message has been edited by Randy Bey on 01-01-2002 at 10:09 AM

[Al Klappenberger]

Hi Guys

Since Mobile put up a picture of my "B" network, I figure it's my invitation

to put in my two cents worth!

As to the oil cap versus the polypropylene caps, the oil caps have

considerably higher loss compared to the polypropylene caps. The losses in

the poly type are to low to measure on my impedance bridge. The "Q" factors

of the Hovland MusiCaps is over 2000. The oil caps would be equivalent to

connecting a resistor in series with each cap. The usually measure about 400

on the Q factor if memory serves me. What this does to the sound is

subjective, but it definitely adds loss to the filter and rounds out the

crossovers.

The question of what my network would do to a tube amp is probably a

function of the particular amp. It presents a nearly constant 4 Ohm load as

compared to a load that goes very high in the middle of the squawkers

frequency range as the transformer does it's job to cut down the squawker

level. Some amps might even like that! I really haven't had enough

experience with enough variety of amps to be sure. I have been using the

same McIntosh MC250 for the last 25 years!

Oh yeah --> And a happy new year to everybody!

Al K.