Arkytype Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Several forum members have mentioned the late Richard C. Heyser's review of the Klipschorn that appeared in the November 1986 issue of Audio magazine. I was able to locate the review at a university library's reference section. The Audio magazines were bound twelve issues at a time so the text on some of the page edges is a little hard to read. There are six pages so I'll post each one separately for those with dial up. Some of Heyser's measurements and comments will no doubt spark some interesting forum posts. Enjoy. Lee Review page 1 of 6.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 Here's page 2 of 6. Review page 2 of 6.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 Here's page 3 of 6 Review page 3 of 6.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 Here's page 4 of 6 Review page 4 of 6.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 Here's page 5 of 6 Review page 5 of 6.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted August 30, 2007 Author Share Posted August 30, 2007 Here's page 6 of 6. Review page 6 of 6.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 I haven't read the Articles , yet .. but .. I have the utmost respect for one of the first people to Quantify audio .......Richard C. Heyser ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Hmmmmnnn ....... Richard ....... Should He ... be Banned .. too ..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Hmmmmnnn ....... Richard ....... Should He ... be Banned .. too ..?? Sure, why not. As the truth scares far too many people who already think they know it all. But hey, it certainly adds to the entertainment value of the site. The problem? Signal alignment of the various acoustical centeris (origins) of the drivers in the time domain!!!!!! So while so many here pursue audio nirvana in the form expensive passive crossovers and new caps (but hey, that's sacred, as isn't that what PWK put in them!?) [|-)], one might want to consider an active crossover with signal alignment!!! So, in keeping with business as usual (after the usual obligatory lauding of Heyser and the comments of a few who question his knowledge without having a clue as to what he actually said), I expect the next thread to be "What cap should I use to upgrade my new Klipschorns/LaScalas/Cornwalls/etc." [|-)] But hey, I'm an optimist! At least a few will say a couple of nice things about Heyser before totally ignoring his message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Interesting and thoughtful review. Wish he'd reviewed a pair of La Scalas as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Dr. Who .. You should find it interesting that R. Heyser states the KH bass bin .. needs 8ms alignment .. didn't we always talk 7 ms...?? in the Ball Park, baby ..[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Now .. Mark ... I .. should caution you ... the JBL 4430's ... sound much better w/ the Passive X-Over ... never got a electronic one to better that look at JBL's electric model of phase relationships in the X-Over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Not only the bass bin needs alignment! ALL of he drivers do! When you measure acoustical origin offsets in feet, the phase relationships exceed 360 degrees and passives can't do that - not to mention that they constitute a significant reactive load seen by the source! And that is why so many discount the damping factor of an amp, NOT because it isn't effective in controlling a dynamic driver, but in that, seeing the load, it does not truly see the driver! So, damping with a passive crossover...yeah, whatever. That's an oxymoron. And we have not even gotten into the amount of energy that is stored as potential energy in the real component of the crossover and not converted in real time to kinetic energy (in the reactive imaginary realm of the impedance ) of the driver. There are myriad sources of problems with passive components, and they are insufficient to overcome the more significant signal offsets that constitute massive group delay errors, and the resultant superposition affects of acoustical comb filtering and polar anomalies in the crossover region. And simply using higher order slopes does not remedy this. You can play all you like with the passives, but ultimately you have to deal with that which they cannot (in addition to their already significant overhead), and that is alignment in the time domain. The horns weren't the problem, the offsets were - and still are. The rather fascinating aspect of this is that this topic is old news in most other legitimate acoustics circles, And no, I am not referring to some other web chat rooms filled with self-anointed experts who spend their days debating which cable or interconnect is best. This ranks right up their with what one can and cannot EQ. And when it comes down to it, it merges with the topic, as that is exactly what most passive crossovers attempt to do! And this situation, just like a room, is not minimum phase! And that debate (and all of the residual vestiges) was rendered moot by ~1992. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Here's page 6 of 6. Really trying to pad that post count, eh Lee?[] I miss visiting with you! Say hi to Paula from the Four Fabulous Fautleys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Hmmmmnnn ....... Richard ....... Should He ... be Banned .. too ..?? Sure, why not. As the truth scares far too many people who already think they know it all. But hey, it certainly adds to the entertainment value of the site. I'm only speculating here but I think we missed Dukes intended target...? be that as it may... I too say BAN HIS HINEY!! (can I say hiney on a public forum?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 I think "hiney" is considered cusping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Now .. Mark ... I .. should caution you ... the JBL 4430's ... sound much better w/ the Passive X-Over ... never got a electronic one to better that look at JBL's electric model of phase relationships in the X-Over uh oh.... now you've done it..... have a blessed night, roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Now .. Mark ... I .. should caution you ... the JBL 4430's ... sound much better w/ the Passive X-Over ... never got a electronic one to better that look at JBL's electric model of phase relationships in the X-Over uh oh.... now you've done it..... have a blessed night, roy Not at all. It is non sequitur. It helps to understand the offsets in acoustic centers/origins between drivers. What is it in the 4430? Is it measured in feet???? Hardly. My guess is within ~1-3 cm... If the frequency range is within 360 degrees you can adjust the phase with a passive (albeit with all the other fundamental shortcomings). So,if one wishes to debate an issue, it would help to use an example that is similar to the case at hand and show how it invalidates the original point. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Dr. Who .. You should find it interesting that R. Heyser states the KH bass bin .. needs 8ms alignment .. didn't we always talk 7 ms...?? in the Ball Park, baby ..[] The real trick would have been dialing it in by ear. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Thank you Arkytype for posting this thread. I can't take credit for the attached pdf. Some other forum member posted it some time ago and I saved it. Nevertheless, here it is. The whole article is attached as a single pdf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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