mobile homeless Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Well, ole Earz might be correct in saying the amp will do fine duty as a subwoofer amp; I have no way of commenting on this since I have never heard a single Carver product hooked up to a sub; indeed, I have never been a big fan of subs, period (except in Home Theater applications). Still, others love them and use them in audio. Obviously, it's a matter of taste and preference. Subs seem to run well on all sorts of amps, from plate amps to old 555 Adcoms to...etc. On the other hand, I HAVE heard many a Carver amp via two channel systems. And I have to say I have never been impressed with ole Bob's designs in the mid-Fi range as they have always had an edge and harshness to the sound with prolonged exposure. None of those Magnetic Field designs could ever be accused of being refined and smooth sounding. You DID get a lot of output from a small package but the output was never that musical compared to better designs, even including the lowly Adcom 555. I think this is what Forest Sump is referring to with his acerbic ways... The Carver in two channel applications is not a particularly musical device by any means. I would chose many, many others in two channel service over Bob's designs. I do find ole Bob an interesting sort and remember the challenge years ago when ole Bob said he could make a solid state amp sound exactly like a tube amp. It was an amusing escapade an a marketing boon - Ole Bob was always market wise... kh system one online / alternate components / asylum listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-05-2002 at 07:52 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Back to the original topic. I max out the SPL meter on my DBX 14/10 Computerized Equalizer/RTA easily at 119db so the system can easily produce sound in excess of 120db in the living room but what else would you expect from Klipsch with lots of power. ------------------ Living Room Sony KP-43T70 43" Television Denon AVR 3300 A/V Receiver DBX BX-3MkII Power Amplifier (LF/ALF/RF/ARF) (Belle's - Oak Clear/Cane) & LWE-I's w/Motion Feedback (Mahogany) DBX BX-3MkII Power Amplifier (RR/ARR/LR/ALR) (Heresy II's (Walnut/Cane) & Infinity SM82 (Walnut) DBX MPA-150 Mono Split Spectrum Amplifier © (KV-4 - Black) Klipsch KSW-15 Powered Subwoofer (2) Nakamichi DVD-10 DVD/LCD/CD Player Nakamichi MB-10 Music Bank CD Changer Technics SL-DL5 DD Linear Tracking Turntable JVC HR-S7500U SVHS Video Cassette Recorder RCA DRD-303RA Satellite Receiver VC3 Deluxe Video Clarifier DBX 400XG Program Route Selector DBX 120X-DS Subharmonic Synthesizer/Electronic Crossover DBX 3BX-DS 3-Band Dynamic Range Controller (2) 1-L, 1-R DBX 14/10 14-Band Computerized Equalizer/RTA Analyzer/SPL Meter Panamax 1000+ Surge Protector/Line Conditioner Sega Dreamcast w/3 Controllers & VMU's/S-Video Output Bedroom Yamaha RX-900U Receiver Panasonic DVD-A120U DVD/CD Player Sony SLV-740HF Hi-Fi VCR DBX 400XG Program Route Selector BBE Audio Recovery System DBX 2015G 15 Band/Channel Equalizer A/D/S L300E Mini Speakers (Eggshell) GE 20" Television Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Frzin, Good to see you on the board again. Was wondering where you went to? Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Mike, "Where's the Forrest of flames?" About to flame Carver after eating two cans of beans. For sub duty the TFM-75 is a chanmp. Mobile, "I think this is what Forest Sump is referring to with his acerbic ways..." Acerbic you got that right,I dont even think Sump heard the TFM-75 as a sub amp.All he heard is his Bo$e dealer wave a pendula in front of him saying these words...of wisdom "Oh ForrestSump you will now hate all good gear and LOVE my Bo$e speakers." Seriously would you rather use a Pass Aleph as a sub amp.Its clean,its transparent and true blue Class A. As class A as Class A can be. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Well Kelly, I guess I'm just a bass heavy slob. But I'm not using subs at the moment, and I still have great bass, but It doesn't extend in the lower end just slightly like I desire. When I use the subs, I don't crank 'em. I use them for extension. Hell, I'm pushin' 40, and my taste in music is slowly calming down, slowly. But I grew up in the thrash era, I can't turn my back on that. One moment I'll listen to Carole King, then it's grindcore, and the Chorus II's pull it off pretty well. Gear and musical taste vary. Frzn, I could peg 120Db's as well, no subs. (But why?) My listening levels are around average 80 Db's or less. I'm just a two channel system, with a DVD for audio. You sure have a mountain of gear, that's impressive! Ears, I been on the Pass site, and seen some of the homebrew amps that folks have made. Man, it's spendy to just DIY these amps. Way outta my league. But wouldn't you think that a 100 watt Pass class A design could beat the piss out of a pair of FRC's? Yes, I am getting impractical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Mike, I would not use(err WASTE)a Pass on subs.Pass amps shine with great horn loaded speakers and are magical on Dynaudio Contour 1.3SE. Pass amps are I think the most musical SS amps made. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 HUH?..WHAT??..wait-i think someone's at the door-the light that flashes when the doorbell is pushed is flashing-it's the police, they are writing a citation to me for holding an unlicenced live concert in a residential area. avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds RSW-15 on the way!! sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/$22 vinyl pull-down window shade 'screen'-rough side out Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feersum dreadnot Posted January 11, 2002 Share Posted January 11, 2002 I've settled on SVS as well, and also have the "how to power them, will this old amp work?" question. Anyone used an Adcom GFA-1A to run SVS? It is a mid 80's 200 w/ ch relic. I shelved it when the GFP-1 crapped out and I got a Yamaha rxv995 for HT. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgourlie Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 Back to the original question. How loud? Well about 160.32db.... Wait thats my car audio system. Ooops, but my Pair of Heresy II's, KLF C7, and KSW15 do the job in the home. Haven't measured it yet with the Radio shack SPL meter. Maybe that will be my project tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 160.32db is a mess of noise nobody will listen to. Most car systems are huge subs on wheels often costing more than the car. No finesse just DAT BIG WOOFAZ on THEM WHEELS TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted February 4, 2002 Author Share Posted February 4, 2002 I agree with TheEAR. The world record is 196.? dB., 48 Cerwin-Vega subs in a Ford van, somthing like that. It needed a very expensive bullit-proof (literally) windsheild to keep the glass intact. Not exactly a nice drive home from work system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 With the windows and doors open, with the pioneer SX 950, and this amp i have here, in the car i estimated 2 square miles, thats with the cornwalls realy screaming, i only did that once to see how far i can be heard! Then again this is a small open feild town! When the lights blink in the living room i turn this system down, thats loud! I havent done that in a while! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 The world record is 196.? dB., 48 Cerwin-Vega subs in a Ford van, somthing like that. But why? You can't sit in the the rig and listen to the stereo, without ear muffs or some hearing protection. You'll either Puke, Sh*t your pants, and lose your hearing. What has this got to do with enjoying music reproduction? I got into it too, but I didn't do Rap. That Whomp Whomp Whomp,Boom Boom Boom, it's always the same, hasn't changed in over ten years. Like Ears posted, It's just WOOFAS and WHEELZ. (And Clown Exhaust Tips.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 The world record is 196dB! Holly $.... Them WOOFAZ can scare and knock Tyson out! That is totally absurd,NO HUMAN will stand anything above 130dB for long,I dont care who it is.And 160 will destroy your hearing...anuthing over 190 will kill you(no jokes). Wanna see just catch Ladin and force him in this Cerwin Vega van you'll see...BLOOD. I am telling ya its lethal,over 195dB good lord. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 I play my music at average levels of 67 to 73 dBs on a pair of big old Klipsch Cornwall horns rated at 100 dB/w/m. This is slightly above normal room conversion levels. With normal volume set at 9:00 on the dial, musical scale peaks are some 10 to 15 dB higher. At higher volumes, the peaks appear to be compressed and that is when the trouble starts for someone seeking the ultimate audio system. My seating spot is 9 feet away, in a carpeted 14 by 17' living room with popcorn painted 8 ceilings. It opens to the kitchen behind with a doorway and a pass-though window. The front and sidewalls are CBS construction. The room opens to an enclosed porch with two sliding glass doors at the back of the room (238 square feet). A clapping test shows slight echo and brightness. My latest addition is a pair of custom Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour mono amps rated at 3.5 watts at 5% THD. Full out put is over 6 watts at 6 1/2 to 7% THD. My pre-amp volume control approximates the actual amount of power being sent to the speakers. Unlike most volume knobs, which send out almost all of the power by 2:00 on the dial. At the 9:00 setting, I get 73 dB (+- 2 dB) at the listening spot with possibly about 1.6 watts. . This is a 1 kHz tone, with both subs set at their normal setting, measured at back of my couch, 117" from the front of the speakers, on a "C" weighting, and fast response, using a low cost Radio Shack SPL meter. Noontime on the dial is a 91-dB average with about 3.2 watts. Three o'clock with this extrapolation is 101 dB with about 4.9 watts. At flat out, with the volume twisted far right to 5:00 on the dial, they will put out something like 6 watts, providing an unmusical pain at 110 dB. The calculations estimated about four watts to get 95 dB in room response. This appears to be about right, for between one and two on the dial, I am getting something like 92 to 97 dB with about 3 3/4 to 4 1/4 watts. If you have not heard it before, let me say it again: HORNS love tubes! The sound is delicate, detailed and um, well, real. Every time the name Carver appears, I just have to take a poke. There are a few amps that I feel are not a good match for the super-efficient models of Klipsch. Carver is one. What he has done with class D amplifiers and small powered sub-woofers is remarkable, but his amps are not a good match to horns. Klipsch horns are super-efficient (95 dB/w/m or more). At one point, I lived with a blue-gray solid state Carver (M1.5t?) amp capable of 750-watt peaks per channel. It was capable of sustaining 350 watts RMS into an 8 ohm load with no more than 0.5% total harmonic distortion from 20 to 20,000 Hz. It pushed 600 watts per channel RMS into 8 ohms for musically significant time periods. As for the power supply. The M1.5t is regulated to charge the output stages for a maximum total drive of 1200 watts when the program material calls for it. One of the best warnings in the manual is as follows: "We would suggest only one additional precaution when using the M-1.5t. It involves your speakers. Fuse all loudspeakers according to the manufacturer's recommendation, and proceed gingerly in experimenting with the joyous undistorted sound levels the M-1.5t can drive them to. Amounts of on the order available here can easily - unseat woofer voice coils, damage cone suspensions, char or fuse tweeter voice coils and and even demagnetize driver motors... " They drove by big old horns like a diesel engine on a go-cart. Lots of raw power. Every once in awhile, we would tempt fate and turn up the volume in my small 100 year old New England home. The live cannon shots on Telarcs 1812 Overture smacked the floor, tickled the toes, raised dust, rattled windows, impressed teenagers and created a tsunami sound wave big enough to flatten Tokyo. You could feel it all right. Even with out a sub woofer, my Cornwalls had no problems with this unusual musical piece. The combination of the two components however did not make music. At the low power levels that horns require, the Carver still had copious amounts of THD. Carver's amps are NOT a good sounding or practical spending match with sensitive horns. Nobody else is running around saying that class D or H amps are smooth enough to drive the mid-range of sensitive speakers. The advent of the class was birthplace of powered sub-woofers. The noisy THD of the amp wore out my ears at normal listening levels and eventually, over a period of time listening, it lost its pleasure and "stereos" fell to the bottom of my hobby list. More power doesn't seem to be the proper solution for the big old horns, such as the 100 pound Klipsch Cornwalls. Except for the lower bass notes. In the range below 100 Hz the higher wattage of SS powered speakers is a good solution. Pushing the lower notes, the larger drivers and the impedance curves seems to be better handled by SS amps. While type of Total Harmonic Distortion that SS amps have seems to wear out the ears in the critical range of 500 Hz to 12 kHz, it not appear to be detrimental to sounds at the lower frequencies. Unlike the warm and lush mid-range that tubophiles have come to revere, the vocals with the Pass X250 on the big old horns, were clear and neutral, and very easy to get used to. In this respect, as well as every thing else it did on these subjective tests, it is a reference grade amp in every regard. It has all that power; just so it can stand aside and not be heard. Whatever the engineer wanted to put on his disc, you will hear it here. The X250 construction and design means that there is none of the wonderfully euphonic things that horns and tube amps add to the disc to make something akin to music. There is no added warmth or softness to this baby. Imaging is okay, though it is not the extended dimension (3D) that tube amps do so well. In fact, I double checked the phasing, just to be sure that something wasn't set wrong. Yet it is not cold or unemotional; it is merely majestically accurate. The sound might be derided as dry, without any bloat or bloom. Musical horns, such as saxophones, although they sounded wonderfully natural, did not have some of the "edge" or "bite" that tubes on ultra-efficient horns give them. As might be expected with an amp, that can not only delve deep into the lower ohms, but also come up with oodles of A/B power when demanded, bass and drums were remarkable tight and well controlled. They knocked. They thumped. A super-symmetrical super-amp is "technophile" overkill for big old horns that need only six rude watts to pump out 110 dB in my living room. This is not one of the wonderful amp and speaker combinations that make audio history. ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickey Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 I'll probably get knocked upside the head for saying this, and with all due respect to my learned namesake (whose posts I thoroughly enjoy reading), not all Carver amps sound bad! Granted, the old Magnetic Field Amps that Colin references like the M1.0t and M1.5 were big old brutes that could never be considered truly musical. But Carver evolved with the times, and right before ole Bob himself left, they produced some nice gear. Carver began to get away from Magnetic Field transformers (notorious for hum, especially when paired with highly sensitive speakers) and other crazy gimmicks, and as a result produced some quality sounding solid state amps. I have Carver TFM 35x's paired with Chorus II's and a KLF-C7 front. Granted, I'll never use a fraction of the 250 WPC these amps are rated at. These particular amps have a conventional design (they're not class D), and even eschewed Carver's Transfer Function Modified circuitry (despite the TFM designation) and as a result sound very musical. They're quiet as a church mouse (no mean feat when paired with speakers rated at 101 dB sensitivity). And as for the sound...well, it's warm, and shudder to say...almost tube-like!! If you don't believe me, ask the guys at Stereophile, who commented on its tube-like sound and put it on their recommended components list circa 1996. It's this tube-like sound quality that attracted me to this particular amp, as opposed to the raw power output. One day, I'm sure I'll graduate into the league of tubes ala Colin and Mobile, but for now, my schedule doesn't permit me to dedicate the time required for the care and feeding of tube amps. One day for sure! Net-net and IMHO, good sound can be had from Carvers, even when matched with our favorite horn-loaded speakers. Consider it tube sound on a budget. Colin (aka Chickey) ------------------ My System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Nashville Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 I just returned from Radio Shack, having purchased an analog spl meter. I set it up on a camera tripod at my listening position ten feet in front of '77 LaScalas (ALK crossovers) being driven by a 55wpc '71 Sansui 5000x tuner. I put on a cd of Annie Lennox (Eurythmics) singing "Would I Lie To You?" and turned the volume up to 50%. On the slow sampling rate, the meter indicated 118 db with highs up to 120 db+/-. As far as I could tell, there was no distortion. However, it was painful and my ears are still ringing an hour later. Dave This message has been edited by Dave in Nashville on 02-04-2002 at 04:33 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 yea my meter like dave's only goes to 125db plus i don't want to bend the needle. so i'll just say 125db peaks is enough here. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 had the first party at our new house yesterday, and the first group gathering in the theater room since it has been 'completed'. superbowl on an 84" screen-wow! wish the fox affiliate in new orleans wasn't so %&*'n cheap, and would upgrade to stereo broadcast, watched in 'mono movie' s.s. mode. had two people, both sharp on audio/video knowledge, ask if i had other amplifiers in the room. i JUST added the rsw-15 sat.pm,but other than its' built-in amp, the strda777ES and really efficient speakers were doin'the job! that wasn't even 'cranked'. after the game, the small children and younger must leave the room warning was issued, and the 'demos' began! 5.1 version of 'yes-'homeworld'started us out-toward the last 3rd of the song there is a sustained deep bass note (keyboard) that can be felt as well as heard (not sure what frequency, but it's LOW!) rsw-15 played it like a champ! set the bass mgmt. to speakers 'small' sub 'yes'and roll-off at 40Hz for the klf-30's, and 70Hz for the c-7 and ksps-6's. hell's bells on 'stiff upper lip' ac/dc dvd was next, gotta get an spl meter to keep from hurting myself, when it's loud and clear, then you lean on the volume and it's still clear and o.m.g.LOUDER..well you got a killer system. 'for those about to rock' was next. had a great time, still playing w/ the rsw-15 some, hope to post pix soon. avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds RSW-15 on the way!! sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 av, congrats on the sound & excellent material choices! btw, you need to change your signature list to "rsw-15 in da house". ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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