Belle Crossover Replacement vs Rebuild

[bauhaus1]

I just bought 1979 Belles with original AA crossovers. I realize I need to rebuild or replace these. I have decided against going with anything other than the original specs but i have 3 choices:

1) Replace the caps on the AA's

2) Buy newly built AA spec

3) Buy newly built other Klipsch spec crossovers (AB)

I am trying to understand the advantage of buying newly built (option 2) vs just replacing the caps. If I go newly built, should I consider one of the later crossovers that were used with the Belle since the speaker design didn't change or am I better sticking with the AA.

Thanks in advance

[PrestonTom]

Seems like simple question, however ....

Option 3 (the AB) may not be appropriate. Some of the drivers changed over the years and their sensitivities may have required different crossovers (this would certainly be true of using AKx in an older K-Horn cabinet).

Option 1 would be my choice. Yank the caps and get the same value ones from Parts Express (the metal polyprops are fine, but others will disagree). While you are at it, now is a good time to clean any oxidized surfaces. The project will cost less than $20-25.

Be warned that you are about to get a stream of much more expensive alternatives. Some will include a re-design (diff valued caps or a different design/configuration) and these can sound different. Others will recommend the same design, but with more expensive parts (perhaps much more expensive). I do not know if they will sound different than the Solens.

Good Luck & congratulations on your new cabinets,

-Tom

[Audio Flynn]

2) Buy newly built AA spec

http://www.alkeng.com/

and speak to DEANG are good alternatives

[Audio Flynn]

Seems like simple question, however ....

Option 3 (the AB) may not be appropriate. Some of the drivers changed over the years and their sensitivities may have required different crossovers (this would certainly be true of using AKx in an older K-Horn cabinet).

Option 1 would be my choice. Yank the caps and get the same value ones from Parts Express (the metal polyprops are fine, but others will disagree). While you are at it, now is a good time to clean any oxidized surfaces. The project will cost less than $20-25.

Be warned that you are about to get a stream of much more expensive alternatives. Some will include a re-design (diff valued caps or a different design/configuration) and these can sound different. Others will recommend the same design, but with more expensive parts (perhaps much more expensive). I do not know if they will sound different than the Solens.

Good Luck & congratulations on your new cabinets,

-Tom

All depends on if you are a "ametuer solder slinger" or you have time on your hands to tinker. I travel 8-10 nights a month for business so I have little time for doing the detail work myself. DeanG, Juicy Music, ALK Eng and NOS Valves are experienced guys in their specialized area of audio to do business with so you can spend more time listening to music.

[Deang]

2) Buy newly built AA spec

http://www.alkeng.com/

Rick, Al builds for Klipsch speakers, but doesn't build 'Klipsch networks'.

I've handled quite a few of the parts from old networks. The caps aren't always the only thing in need of replacement. The windings on many of the T2A autoformers are loose. The iron core inductors can be bad too -- I've pulled those off boards and had the windings fall right off the core. Those parts for a pair of networks runs a little over $100, I think it's worth it to replace them, especially the autoformers.

[Audio Flynn]

2) Buy newly built AA spec

http://www.alkeng.com/

Rick, Al builds for Klipsch speakers, but doesn't build 'Klipsch networks'.

I've handled quite a few of the parts from old networks. The caps aren't always the only thing in need of replacement. The windings on many of the T2A autoformers are loose. The iron core inductors can be bad too -- I've pulled those off boards and had the windings fall right off the core. Those parts for a pair of networks runs a little over $100, I think it's worth it to replace them, especially the autoformers.

True alkeng makes "replacement networks", but the website is a good read on alternatives to the stock design. I should have been more specific.

[bauhaus1]

Yeah, I think I want to keep AA spec, but I think I need more than caps. Any links for new AA specs would be helpful. I have seen bobcrites, but would like to know if there is a choice or price difference.

http://myworld.ebay.com/bobcrites/' class="findresulttitle">

[DizRotus]

My advice would be to refurbish them yourself. New caps and a thorough cleaning should suffice. The auto-transformers should be fine; everything else should clean up and be as good as new.

If that's not your cup of tea, then I advise getting new or refurbished units from Bob Crites or Dean (if he makes them). You might find a lower price somewhere else, but you won't find a better deal. If price is always your ultimate criterion, then you're in for many disappointments.

[pocket.change]

DizRotus, 

I agree.  

If you deal with Mr Crites you will get an idea of what's possible with good design and fresh parts without going with the hiigher priced spread.

  

I'm very pleased with Mr. Crites "A" XOs for my KHorns but one day I will be sweetening things with a example of ALKs efforts.

[Erik Mandaville]

I agree that the inductors and autoformer (should) be fine, and that a good place to start if you know how to solder would be to just replace the caps, if needed, with metal/poly or even mylar types. If you find something not right later, or if the inductors and autoformer seem oddly loose or on the verge of unwinding, which is less likely than ESR and capacitive values of the caps being off, you can always update those at a later date.

If you don't solder, it's easy. I know another forum member who said he felt it would be impossible to learn, and was happy (not to mention really proud) to find that it's not that big of a deal at all. If you can use a knife and fork, the sort of motor skills required to hold a hot iron in one hand and a length (or spool) of solder in another is more simple, still. If you don't have the time or would rather let someone else do the work for you, there are other alternatives, some very reasonable in terms of cost, others very expensive.

Good luck!

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

You might also like the type 'A', which is even more straightforward. Cheaper, too.

Erik

[Deang]

"...but would like to know if there is a choice or price difference."

Well, I build them too. I don't think anyone is building those except Bob and myself. Technically, right in the ballbark with each other. Bob uses Sonicaps, I use Auricaps or V-caps (for the upscale build). Bob's coils are identical to the stock parts, I use Jantzen air cores and Erse Super-Q steel laminates. Bob uses the same Cinch barrier strip that Klipsch used, and I prefer the ones from Parts Express, which provide some serious positive contact once the screws are tightened down (and won't vibrate loose over time). Most of my parts cost more and my labor is higher -- I'm anal retentive and it takes me a couple of evenings to build up a pair. Actually, we might have about the same amount of money into the parts because Bob still uses the zener diodes and I don't -- those are kind of pricey at $40 for four of them. Bob prefers crimping the leads into spades going to the barrier strip, and I prefer using locking solder lugs -- and solder the leads. Bob builds on Cedar and polys the top surface, I use Red Oak which I sand down and rub out with oil. Bob's are industrial looking, mine aren't. A pair of mine run about $100 higher than Bob's. That about covers it I think.

[Audible Nectar]

I am a BIG fan of the old PWK Heritage network formulas, the AA in particular. I have sampled the AA using several different capacitors, including the original GE types, Jensen, Auricap, and my "keepers", the V-Cap OIMP (which is the best cap for a horn that I have ever used). I spent about $600 for the complete new set of V-Cap networks. For a AA, that's about as "high end" as you can go.

The simplicity of the A/AA networks allows for maximum flexibility in cap choices....very easy to choose a flavor, because you can always find the right cap values. They also convey a "closeness" and "bloom" that some of the more complex aftermarket networks do not. For most listeners the A/AA work very well. The exception might be a listener who uses high power in a large room, or pushes the speaker to extreme volume levels, in which case a more complex aftermarket network (like those built by Al K.) might be the ticket. The more complex the network becomes, the more difficult it is to build the network with those "top flight" caps....I am one who wants only the best caps available touching the signal, and my listening tests have confirmed for me that the caps do matter. My network listening/auditions have turned me into a bit of a "cap snob"[]

Forum member DeanG is a very knowledgeable network "tutor" and seems to know all of the "flavors" and options. He's built just about every network type for these imaginable.

MUCH of network selection is a personal thing.....some like the simple stuff, some like the aftermarket designs in various flavors.....much of this will be based on your listening habits and preferences.

[Deang]

I spent about $600 for the complete new set of V-Cap networks.

Man, you got ripped off. Did I really charge you that much for those, I'm selling them for half that now.

You can definitely build a pair yourself with some practice. However, if you don't have the tools, the cost layout for the stuff is about as much as the labor you'd pay to have someone else do it for you. You can buy a cheap iron from Radio Shack, but the tips are awful and unless you have some experience, the whole project can turn into an act in frustration. I still get the occasional email from someone who bought into the "it's like tying your shoes" bit, and I have to spend two days in email correspondance with them helping them untie the knots. Beginners always think about "soldering", they don't think about desoldering, which is something they invariably end up doing after they've tied their shoes together.

This thread has some helpful info. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/118136.aspx

[Audible Nectar]

I spent about $600 for the complete new set of V-Cap networks.

Man, you got ripped off. Did I really charge you that much for those, I'm selling them for half that now.

You can definitely build a pair yourself with some practice. However, if you don't have the tools, the cost layout for the stuff is about as much as the labor you'd pay to have someone else do it for you. You can buy a cheap iron from Radio Shack, but the tips are awful and unless you have some experience, the whole project can turn into an act of frustration. I still get the occasional email from someone who bought into the "it's like tying your shoes" bit, and I have to spend two days in email correspondance with them helping them untie the knots. Beginners always think about "soldering", they don't think about desoldering, which is something they invariably end up doing after they've tied their shoes together.

This thread has some helpful info. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/118136.aspx

LMAO! That's exactly why I had you build them. I figured you would rather spend an evening or two just building them, rather than spending those two evenings helping me unty my shoelaces, and explaining to me why the tweeters cannot handle that much bass energy[] Makes it all worth it, even if I did spend double[][]

[PrestonTom]

Gosh, The poor guy has just purchased some Belle cabinets and asked a question about crossovers. Within 11 posts the price has climbed from $25 (my suggested option) to $600.

Wait, I believe the ALK site will have an even more expensive option.

Soon the tube amp suggestions will boost the price even further. Maybe I am just a tin-eared fool (or a cheapskate).....

Seriously, why not just spend the $25 on Solens and two hours to solder and tidy up and then just listen, listen, listen. If you are still dis-satisfied, or simply curious, then by all means go ahead a pull out your wallet and go the premium route. Personally, I think experimenting with the toe-in and chair location will have a bigger impact. But I will reiterate that I may just be a simple-minded tin-eared fool.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Audible Nectar]

Gosh, The poor guy has just purchased some Belle cabinets and asked a question about crossovers. Within 11 posts the price has climbed from $25 (my suggested option) to $600.

Wait, I believe the ALK site will have an even more expensive option.

Soon the tube amp suggestions will boost the price even further. Maybe I am just a tin-eared fool (or a cheapskate).....

Seriously, why not just spend the $25 on Solens and two hours to solder and tidy up and then just listen, listen, listen. If you are still dis-satisfied, or simply curious, then by all means go ahead a pull out your wallet and go the premium route. Personally, I think experimenting with the toe-in and chair location will have a bigger impact. But I will reiterate that I may just be a simple-minded tin-eared fool.

Good Luck,

-Tom

You are correct that he came here to learn about crossovers. If a person were to come here asking for a pair of speakers and I showed him Heresys and nothing else with no other considerations, that would not be very complete information. In my time in sales, I was taught to show the bottom to the top, because a person will never select what is not offered.

It is also well understood that we might give TOO much information and confuse the original poster. We're good at that around here[] But since we're not on commission here, I guess that's a price the original poster will have to pay, hehe[][]

Your suggestion is likely good advice, but there is more than that one option available, to which the original poster should be aware. I am curious about any particular preferences the original poster has, such as listening tastes, room, what gear might be used, and so forth, to give more complete information as to what he might in fact prefer.

[bauhaus1]

First of all I cam here so I would get TOO much information. My main preference is to get the crossovers back to factory spec without overkill. I know how to solder but I don't want to spend too much time wondering if I did everything I could to make these Belles sing. That means I would have to replace or test all components and then test the crossover when done.... not worth it when I can get something with the same specs as original. At least that's the way I am leaning.

Dean, do you ever make them with the larger more modern spade connections on the speaker wire side? I have some good cables hooking this up to my Cayin 50-T, but they terminate in plugs which can easily be adapted to the larger 5/16"(or 7mm) spade size, but the the babys on the original AA's are like 3/16" and are hard to work with unless I buy new cables.

[Deang]

I've built boards for folks where I've added five way binding posts, it's a pain in the butt. It's a lot simpler and less expensive to reterminate the cables with the proper sized spades. If you don't want to mess with it, you can send the cables back to the vendor who will do it for you.

[cjgeraci]

Gosh, The poor guy has just purchased some Belle cabinets and asked a question about crossovers. Within 11 posts the price has climbed from $25 (my suggested option) to $600.

Wait, I believe the ALK site will have an even more expensive option.

Soon the tube amp suggestions will boost the price even further. Maybe I am just a tin-eared fool (or a cheapskate).....

Seriously, why not just spend the $25 on Solens and two hours to solder and tidy up and then just listen, listen, listen. If you are still dis-satisfied, or simply curious, then by all means go ahead a pull out your wallet and go the premium route. Personally, I think experimenting with the toe-in and chair location will have a bigger impact. But I will reiterate that I may just be a simple-minded tin-eared fool.

Good Luck,

-Tom

In virtually every thread in the past twelve months in which a person asks for crossover advice, you post early in the thread, giving the standard $25 recap pitch and then "warn" them about the evil (and "expensive") crossover suggestions that are about to come. Then, once others suggest some alternatives, you browbeat and chastize them for flooding the original poster with too much information and some options that might actually cost some $$$. Strangely enough, in most of the threads, you fail to acknowledge that some of the more "expensive" options might actually provide some sonic benefits beyond just moving the speakers. Then, you wrap it up with an aw shucks comment.

Well, at least you are consistent.

Carl.

P.S. I did not expect your disdain for tube amps to show up in a crossover thread. Wow, that's something new.....................