Digital Storage Question - Shhhhhhhhhhhh

[InnerTuber]

Note – this author (aka me, myself, I, Innertuber) does not endorse illegal music sharing and doesn’t pretend or even care to understand the RIAA’s position. Author just wants to be able to create a playlist, drink wine and chase his wife around the house. Sadly, if you come over and want to listen, he will have to charge you royalties to remit to “The Man”. However, if you stand outside and listen that is ok, i.e., free. If you actually look at the device producing music you must pay the royalty even if it’s not playing anything. Since it’s inherently capable of playing and the RIAA cannot really tell if it played or not, the fee must be collected. He will remit the fees for looking to RIAA. Standing indoors, but not looking, is a gray area and if you agree to indemnify that risk is acceptable. Remember, you must agree to not look at the music. Oh, he must also charge state tax. You must provide a vendor ID and tax number to listen (again, unless you stand in the driveway). Don’t worry, he can turn it up loud. If it gets too loud and we injure (or disintegrate) any pelicans, egrets or other various Florida fauna or wildlife we must agree to jointly settle with PETA.

Now that that’s out of the way -

I know this pops up often, but the technology does change rather quickly and I would love to come close to getting it right! I want to understand how to create a good, stored, stereo digital music feed. Currently, I am using a Dell laptop and iPod for testing. I just plug into the headphone output and split that into the receiver or preamp inputs. Also feed using a PC a 128 kps, Sirus internet feed which has great WAF, but not the greatest sound. I’ve tested a variety of rip settings after a lot of helpful reading here and elsewhere, and to me, using WAV files, 320kps, 44.1 sample rate, stereo, sounds the closest to original. I’m not sure it sounds exactly the same, but I think it should. I’m guessing the differences (I think I hear) are differing output gains between our CD player and the laptop. The headphone jack or sound card may be limiting, I’m just not sure. Now for the hardware I’m considering –Mini Mac (no fan and bonus hook-up to TV).Hook up a Drobo (http://www.drobospace.com) for lots of redundant storage.Load up iTunes (since it’s easy and I just don’t know of a better solution).

Considering this Marantz 8001 CD player (http://us.marantz.com/Products/1644.asp). If required, this Benchmark DAC (http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac1/).

Do I need a DAC between the PC and preamp? I know I can make it work w/o this, but would it improve sound quality? The Mini and Benchmark can use a USB connection which might be better than my headphone jack? I am not hung up on any of the above components, so feel free to set me straight.

What would you do different, how would you approach this? The digital storage I mean. I know there are lots or ways to disintegrate pelicans.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I have a friend who uses a Mac Mini, runs SPDIF optical out to a DAC an dinto his preamp. He loves it. I'm not sure that you need a USB DAC, but you should use a DAC. The quality will be way above what the Mini is able to do.

[DrWho]

If you're going to be storing a lot of music, you should look into
FLAC. It maintains the exact same quality that is on the DVD, but packs
the data in a way that it takes up less space on your harddrive. Or you
could go with just straight up WAV (which again is the exact same
quality), but it takes up a lot more space.

You will absolutely
want to run a DAC with your computer. The headphone outputs simply
won't do a good system justice. The Syrius webstream will probably
always sound bad, but you should notice a large improvement with your
stored CDs. If your computer doesn't have a built-in digital output,
then you'll want to find yourself a USB sound card.

A lot of computers
do their own processing on the signal so if you want the absolute best
quality, then you should look into an ASIO capable sound card and then
use a media player that supports streaming ASIO. I'm not sure what all
software is available with a Mac so I can't recommend any media player
off the top of my head. Basically, ASIO is just a transmission protocol
that tells the computer that your music is just data, not music, so
that it bypasses all the internal processing usually performed by the
OS. This is a good thing because most software resamples to 48kHz and
doesn't do it very well. This isn't a HUGE deal, certainly nowhere near the level of difference between the headphone output and a dedicated DAC, so if you don't want to get into crazy technicals then you're probably better off ignoring the whole ASIO thing.

[Mallette]

Mr. Tuber, the Doc's got you covered. I've a couple variants to accomplish what Mike suggests, but no point in confusing the issue. If quality is what you want (and if not, this ain't the place to ask), fill the Doc's prescription.

Dave

[Groomlakearea51]

Author just wants to be able to create a playlist, drink wine and chase his wife around the house.

A Noble Goal, Hear! Hear! (Chasing the wife is always fun!!![6])

Sadly, if you come over and want to listen, he will have to charge you royalties to remit to “The Man”. However, if you stand outside and listen that is ok, i.e., free.

Ok, but I need some clarification. Is that to listen to the music? or listen to the wife chasin'? Or both? If both pro rated dependent on whether a particular tune sucks and we track you down and watch (excuse me... "listen") to the chasin' show? Details? Rates? Group Rates?[<)]

If you actually look at the device producing music you must pay the royalty even if it’s not playing anything. Since it’s inherently capable of playing and the RIAA cannot really tell if it played or not, the fee must be collected. He will remit the fees for looking to RIAA.

Got it, not happy, but I can live with that. Couple minor questions on that (visitin' you could get expensive...). If I'm lookin at the RIAA equipment and decide to listen, are we still ok with flat rate form from part A? Also, can I blindfold myself and get a reduced rate; unless I chase your wife around while blindfolded and run into furniture, which in that case can I get a partial refund or credit for entertainment purposes (union rate vs RIAA rate)?

Standing indoors, but not looking, is a gray area and if you agree to indemnify that risk is acceptable. Remember, you must agree to not look at the music.

Does that also apply if I watch you chase your wife around, but avert my eyes when scanning past RIAA stuff? Also, If I agree to not grab your wine while you are chasin', is that fee waived?

Oh, he must also charge state tax. You must provide a vendor ID and tax number to listen (again, unless you stand in the driveway). Don’t worry, he can turn it up loud.

Ok, but... If I listen, and can get you to believe that I'm a yankee snowbird, do I still have to pay tax? Also, on that whole tax thing, If I come over and while you are chasin your wife and I do grab some of the wine, do I still have to pay tax on the amount I drink?

If it gets too loud and we injure (or disintegrate) any pelicans, egrets or other various Florida fauna or wildlife we must agree to jointly settle with PETA.

What about Elvis, my pet alligator? He was raised on AC/DC Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap. Besides, he can eat the evidence... Also, since he's endangered, is he exempt from the RIAA charges (provided he stays outside)?

This is going to get complicated... Gonna' have to develop a release and hold harmless agreement for anyone coming over. Will it Never End!!![:'(]

[jbsl]

I just set up my computer as a transport for the tube DAC I bought and it has worked out great!! I have been saving all my cds the last few weeks to my comp and will soon start making and saving different playlist.

I use EAC to download the cd to my computer and then use FOOBAR as my player(downloaded both for free). I bought a Sound Blaster external sound card so I run a usb cable from my comp to the ex sound card and then run a dig coaxial to my tube DAC and then to my Luxman.

This has worked out great!! Sound wise I cannot tell the diffrence between my cd player but there are some cds that sound better from the comp and some cds sound better from the cd player but both still sound great.

One thing I noticed on my comp/stereo is that most bad recording sound better from the comp. Better but not outstanding.

I make playlists with hundreds of songs and go about whatever I have to do around the house for hours and don't worry about changing out discs.

One problem I have is my comp and stereo is in my bedroom and my speakers and tv are in the living room(set it up this way for hometheater) so I don't have a remote control for the comp but I do have a remote for volume so no big deal.

This is not difficult to set up so I say go for it.

Well just bought Robert Plant / Alison Krauss-Raising Sand cd so going to go give it a good listen.

Let us know what you end up doing.

[wpines]

" This isn't a HUGE deal, certainly nowhere near the level of difference between the headphone output and a dedicated DAC, so if you don't want to get into crazy technicals then you're probably better off ignoring the whole ASIO thing. "

That's an interesting statement to me. The improvement when I went from and internal soundcard to and external USBDAC was tremendous. I've now got an external USBDAC and I use Itunes for playback. I've been considering switching to Foobar and utilizing ASIO,but computer programs are a steep learning curve for me.

If I'm understanding you correctly, your statement is saying that the improvement in sound to go to a playback software that supports ASIO won't be as dramatic as the switch to an outboard DAC? Is that correct?

That would be in line with most things audiophile; dimishing returns as the time and money investment levels climb

[mifanning]

InnerTuber, you might also consider a dedicated unit, such as an Olive music server, through which you can:

• 
  

  Rip and tag your music collection
  to the built-in hard drive

  
  
• 
  

  Use the built-in CD drive as a precise transport to feed an external dac (via coax
  or optical digital outputs) or feed directly into a
  power amp via a remote volume controlled RCA line output

  
  
• 
  

  Burn a CD from the internal CD-RW
  drive

  
  
• 
  

  Archive music from an external analog
  source (e.g. vinyl) to the internal hard drive

  
  
• 
  

  Control the Olive music server via
  a network computer or wireless PDA (e.g. Nokia 770)

  
  
• 
  

  Wirelessly stream Internet radio
  stations (or music from another computer in your home)

  
  
• 
  

  Transfer music to/from an iPod, as
  well as playback files stored on an iPod

  
  
• 
  

  Connect an external USB hard drive
  to playback and backup your music collection

  
  
• 
  

  Plug your headphones into the built-in
  1/4" headphone jack mounted on the front panel (with
  built in volume control)

  
  

I had my Olive Musica modifed by Vinnie Rossi at Red Wine Audio, so it plays totally "off the grid" without the prospect of AC interference. Vinnie also adds a 75-ohm BNC digital output jack so you can hook up to an external DAC but I use the Olive's internal DAC, which sounds fine to me. Vinnie also upgraded the standard 180gb hard drive to a massive 750gb hard drive, so I don't believe I will be running out of hard drive space soon! If I do, I can always connect to an external hard drive via one of the USB connections.

As does DrWho, I use FLAC compressiion. Sounds great to me.

I use this source with an RWA Signature 30.2 integrated amp (also "off the grid") and my venerable Klipsch (original) Forte speaker, modified by Bob Crites with his X-over and titanium tweeters. I am a happy camper!

If any of this is of interest, you can check out the following links:

Olive music servers <www.olive.us>

Red Wine Audio mods <www.redwineaudio.com/Olive.html>

Hope this helps!

[Mallette]

" This isn't a HUGE deal, certainly nowhere near the level of difference between the headphone output and a dedicated DAC, so if you don't want to get into crazy technicals then you're probably better off ignoring the whole ASIO thing. "

That's an interesting statement to me. The improvement when I went from and internal soundcard to and external USBDAC was tremendous. I've now got an external USBDAC and I use Itunes for playback. I've been considering switching to Foobar and utilizing ASIO,but computer programs are a steep learning curve for me.

If I'm understanding you correctly, your statement is saying that the improvement in sound to go to a playback software that supports ASIO won't be as dramatic as the switch to an outboard DAC? Is that correct?

That would be in line with most things audiophile; dimishing returns as the time and money investment levels climb

Don't get confused as to "external" being the operative word as to "better" in PC sound. It is irrelevant. It is the DAC itself that counts. All high end DAC's, whether internal or external offer ASIO support. I have both kinds, depending on the application. On my laptop (and anywhere I need to carry it, since I can install it on anybody's computer "ad hoc" in a minute or two) I use an M-Audio USB Audiophile. Very nice. On my music server, an internal Card Deluxe, the sound of which I do not believe I could improve upon, and on my location DAW, an ESI WamiRack which provides up to 8 channels at up to 24/192 and has both internal and external components.

I am a bit confused as are you as to Mike's comment "...so if you don't want to get into crazy technicals then you're probably better off ignoring the whole ASIO thing." as loading an ASIO driver is no more difficult that any other.

Dave

[Mallette]

" This isn't a HUGE deal, certainly nowhere near the level of difference between the headphone output and a dedicated DAC, so if you don't want to get into crazy technicals then you're probably better off ignoring the whole ASIO thing. "

That's an interesting statement to me. The improvement when I went from and internal soundcard to and external USBDAC was tremendous. I've now got an external USBDAC and I use Itunes for playback. I've been considering switching to Foobar and utilizing ASIO,but computer programs are a steep learning curve for me.

If I'm understanding you correctly, your statement is saying that the improvement in sound to go to a playback software that supports ASIO won't be as dramatic as the switch to an outboard DAC? Is that correct?

That would be in line with most things audiophile; dimishing returns as the time and money investment levels climb

Don't get confused as to "external" being the operative word as to "better" in PC sound. It is irrelevant. It is the DAC itself that counts. All high end DAC's, whether internal or external offer ASIO support. I have both kinds, depending on the application. On my laptop (and anywhere I need to carry it, since I can install it on anybody's computer "ad hoc" in a minute or two) I use an M-Audio USB Audiophile. Very nice. On my music server, an internal Card Deluxe, the sound of which I do not believe I could improve upon, and on my location DAW, an ESI WamiRack which provides up to 8 channels at up to 24/192 and has both internal and external components.

I am a bit confused as are you as to Mike's comment "...so if you don't want to get into crazy technicals then you're probably better off ignoring the whole ASIO thing." as loading an ASIO driver is no more difficult that any other.

Dave

[DrWho]

I am a bit confused as are you as to Mike's comment "...so if you don't want to get into crazy technicals then you're probably better off ignoring the whole ASIO thing." as loading an ASIO driver is no more difficult that any other.

I guess that makes me an idiot [] lol

I have had a few variations of ASIO capable cards on my computer, but could never get it working properly with any of the free media player, like winamp, foobar, or quintessential player. I had the best results with QP, but it would create a gap in the music inbetween tracks - which drove me nuts on albums that faded between tracks. I also tried a bunch of flavors on my linux dual boot, but couldn't get anything ASIO working there...

I never had any issues with OSX in the studio, but then it was a slightly different application...

I have the M-Audio USB Audiophile for my laptop and it has been more than adequate.

[Mallette]

>I guess that makes me an idiot lol

Certainly not my intention. It's just that I've never had an issue with an ASIO driver and was unaware that there were any (anymore than with any MS-POS situation).

With Card Deluxe as well as my ESI, ASIO works perfectly with all apps, and I've had both in several different machines with XP and 2K.

Dave

P.S. Hey, Mike. Does that green grasshopper have a red... Oh, never mind.

[DrWho]

What playlist apps are you using that stream ASIO? One thing to keep in mind is that you may have an ASIO driver installed, but if your player isn't streaming ASIO then you're not getting the advantages of ASIO. For a while there I thought I was crazy for not hearing a difference until I discovered the player also needs to be configured...

"A red..." what? Come on, you can say it []

[Mallette]

Now I feel like an idiot...

What does a player have to do with it? I rip everything to HDD and play directly. The only player I can think of would be if you played directly from a PC computer drive. I certainly see no advantage in hooking a CD player to a PC.

Dave

PS-I can't recall all the apps I've used. I tested a bunch a couple of years ago for the MBS-5 project. All worked. I use Sound Forge 7/8/9 on various machines. WinAmp, WMP, Media Center...

Dave

[DrWho]

The player (and we're talking software here) takes the file stored
on your computer (or the file stored in the buffer on your cd rom) and
then tells the computer to send the data to the sound card.

If you tell
the player to use the ASIO data transfer protocol, then the file from the
computer is sent directly to the sound card, which then goes
to the ASIO processing section on the soundcard.

If
you tell the player to use the standard audio transfer
protocol (which is the default setting), then it just sends the file
stored
on your computer to the default audio processing section in the CPU on
your motherboard. There, the audio will undergo whatever bit-mangling
that
goes on with all the other sounds on your computer. Most every OS
down-/up-
samples the audio to 16bit 48kHz (probably because it makes it easier
to work with any sound card on the market). After that, the audio is
sent to the soundcard where it will down-/up sample the audio back to
the
rate of the original file before it gets sent to the digital outputs or
the DACs. It's kinda decieving because if your audio file is 24-Bit
96kHz, the digital output stream will look like 24-Bit 96kHz despite
the fact the file was down-sampled in the middle by the CPU.

In other words,
not only do you need an ASIO capable sound card, but you need to make
sure your player is sending audio with ASIO.

[Fish]

I don't know that this applies but just in case someone is looking for a less sophisticated set up.I got a Sansa view(portable media player) for Christmas so I thought I'd put my cd's on my computer to load on player.Since I had to load anyway I loaded about 500 cds in lossless format through windows.This takes up a lot of space but I also got a 300gb portable media drive that slides into my computer,which it about filled up.I then made another file mp3 at 320k for my player(which took up about 30 some gb)and put lots of it on my player.

But...that's not really the story.I put an audio card(an hdmi vid card too but that's another story) in my pc a while back,high resolution dvd audio/dts/dd with analog and digital outputs.I ran a coax cable to my stereo and the whole thing sounds great.I've listened more in the past few weeks than for a long time.I love having most of my library on pc,easy to find and play,random is great for hearing those songs you don't listen to,too often.The whole deal was pretty easy for a not too tech savy guy like myself.

[DrWho]

Yea Fish, that's exactly why I suggested not bothering with ASIO...it sounds great either way. [Y]

[Mallette]

Ok, following you now.

What IS news to me is any downsampling. I've the otachan ASIO plugin for Winamp, but I was only concerned with latency due to Windows totally foobared structure. Granted MS logic is, well, not, but I've no idea why or even how an Intel CPU could downsample and upsample audio. I am not much on CPU architecture, but my understanding is that in WinTel architecture all audio processing is handled by the cards as coprocessors.

Dave

[Duke Spinner]

Foobar

[Marvel]

Ok, following you now.

What IS news to me is any downsampling. I've the otachan ASIO plugin for Winamp, but I was only concerned with latency due to Windows totally foobared structure. Granted MS logic is, well, not, but I've no idea why or even how an Intel CPU could downsample and upsample audio. I am not much on CPU architecture, but my understanding is that in WinTel architecture all audio processing is handled by the cards as coprocessors.

Dave

Dave,

I believe it is the OS that is the problem. Windows has a mixer application, that all packages use, unless you use an asio driver. I believe it is the kmixer app. You can look it up on the net for mor info than you care to read.

My M-Audio card is set up for asio as well, and it works great. I know that most/all of the SB cards were hardwired for 48k, so everything was mangled with their drivers. GSIF drivers would be great, but I'm not sure how many player would support that. (GSIF = Giga Sampler Interface, by Tascam) It is made to stream massive amounts of instrument samples. But that is a bit OT, I guess.

Bruce