Perhaps it's time consider a new K'horn crossover...

[joshnich]

Of all the speaker tweaks that I have gone through, I would say that the networks and the trachorns were the most rewarding. Actually those are the speaker tweaks! So let's just say I found both the network upgrades and the trachorns to be well worth the money. I have bought networks from Bob and was blown away. I have since bought 3 sets of networks from Dean and have been equally blown away with each iteration. Caps make a difference. At least to my ears!

To all of you who have experienced the improvement with an old Scott amp being rebuilt with quality parts, you owe it to yourself to experience the same improvement with upgrading your networks.

Josh

[wpines]

What about the ALK extreme slope package of ES400T and ES5800 weighing in at $1,390 ?

[Erik Mandaville]

HI, Dave:

Sure, we could work out a visit sometime. With the end of the school year approaching pretty fast, there just doesn't seem to be time for much else, but when that's done, I'll be able to spend more time with hands-on audio stuff. I'm getting more and more interested some sort of music server/storage system, and I know that's something you have spent lots of time with.

On the new or rejuvinated networks: Bob's A or AA might be options you would like. I've made a few versions of both of those networks, and liked them. The Universal ALK is also well-done, I think, and a few years back built one that turned out to be pretty similar when I compared the two schematics. I should point out, though, that I didn't use Litz inductors or Hovland capacitors in either the mid or HF branch, and so am not able to say what I made was the same sonically; which is of course the most important thing. I've found the capacitor issue one that is worthy of experimentation, but would add that in my experience it isn't necessarily the most costly or exotic passive part that's the deciding factor. I've used expensive parts in the past because they sounded best in a given design, but there are an equal number of occasions where a considerably cheaper component is what provided the character of sound that I liked. One such instance is the use of resistors in the attenuation of the squawker rather than the autoformer. Paul Klipsch wrote extensively about why he didn't care for the resistive approach, and I have read and understand all of what he said. I also can appreciate and respect his preference, however I've tried both in essentially the same design, and prefer the resistors to the autoformer. Like so much of this, it's very subjective.

Some people here have also completely and comprehensively altered the entire mid and high region of the speaker (La Scala, Belle, K-horn) by adding tweeters from different companies, entirely different mid-horn designs, AND crossover networks -- but yet retain the autoformer on the squawker. I would say that the other changes made in terms of drivers and horn types likely altered the original sound of the speaker significantly more than -3db by way of the autoformer vs -3dB by way of either a single series resistor or series/parallel combination (which will maintain the original impedance of the driver being attenuated).

To start with, you might do very well just changing the capacitors in your networks for correct values of poly tubular types. Dayton and Solen both make reasonably priced capacitors for crossovers, and they are good. Since the voltages seen by networks caps are NOTHING like capacitors in an active component, such as coupling positions in preamps and amplifiers, they are not faced with anything near the same stresses. This fact makes good metallized types suitable, although you can also spend more for metal-film brands. The soldering is not a big deal after a little practice.

Have fun,

Erik

[Marvel]

Dave--

If at all possible, try to hear these before buying or being committed to them. The range of sonics with these networks is really extremely wide.

No doubt. Incidently, you're one of the guys that had an opportunity to do a head on comparison of two, new pairs of networks; an ever so slightly modified Type AA, and the same constant impedance DHA that Bruce (Marvel) uses. I got the impression that there was very little that you liked about the latter. Networks are like everything else in this hobby; one guy's "cats meow" leaves the other guy bored to tears or looking for an exuse to get out of the room.

I am a little curious about your view on the DHA, what you didn't like about it. I built a DHA2, but I don't really remember the difference between the two. I had a pair of ALK universals in place, on loan from John Albright. With my system, at the volumes I listen at, in my room... YADAYADA... the y sounded extremely close. I did go back and drop the mids down a little. I was being very cost conscious and wanting a constant impedance. An A or AA might have worked. Anything was better than the AL that came with them.

Bruce

[Erik Mandaville]

Constant impedance is not difficult to obtain. There are a number of paths. I actually liked the AL for awhile with how our system was set up then. I designed a different network at that time that was similar to the ALK U. (minus autoformer) in terms of slope and crossover frequencies, and that showed some of the drawbacks of the AL. That said, I have talked to and/or corresponded with people who still perfer the AL over other available options. Some people like less salt on popcorn, others more.

I think the DHA would be a great network. In my case, with the crossover to the tweeter at 4kHz, there is a decade between the high and low ends, which enables the use of a narrow band pass network; which is a little more, in a sense, discriminating. It's what I'm using now and sounds very good. If I remember right, the DHA also has the tweeter connected directly to the amp input, no? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The thing about the A or AA is their simplicity. With so much published information on the behavior of the common drivers and horns in the Heritage line, it's much less challenging to arrive at something that works well.

Erik

[Deang]

Bruce, there's three-different ways to do the tweeter filter on the DHA; wide open, auto bulb/resistor, and L-pad. I sold Mark my pair which had no attenuation on the tweeter filter. I'm only 12 feet from speakers and listen at pretty low volumes, and that's what sounded best to me. Mark didn't like it all. He's not much into the "tweeter sound" to begin with, and in his room he found it obnoxious as hell. He also bought my modified AA's, which used PPT Thetas and a first order bandpass. That network is kind of cool actually, it's basically an ALKJr (Super AA) without the swamping resistor. I ended up building another set of those for myself later, and when I went back to Type A's they were sold to another forum member. Mark mentioned a third pair he tried, but they didn't come from me -- and of those two I don't which he preferred.

Dave mentioned wanting to stay stock, so I don't see the point in elaborating on, or going into detail regarding the hundred different ways to mod a Klipsch network. The way I handle this is if someone tells me they basically like what they're hearing, I tell them to stay with the network type they have, and just update it with new parts. Even this simple thing will change the sonic signature of the speaker. The old networks with worn out caps can sometimes have high frequency output that's as much as 3dB down from it where it should be. When they go back to "factory spec" and experience the full output of the tweeter, reactions are sometimes mixed. I've heard everything from "incredible!", to "...the highs sound like they're coming from a kazoo!" The ears do adjust, and most of those not too thrilled after the initial exposure end up coming around and appreciating the difference as a real improvement.

[Deang]

Kevinmi -- if you sent me an email I won't see it until I get into work tomorrow, I have email from here pointed in that direction. If you want info before then, you send it with a PM or email me at dgwescott@sbcglobal.net.

[Deang]

Dean said: "Each of us knows where the other stands on the various issues, and we basically just agree to disagree. In spite of the differences and the friendly rivalry, we get along pretty good."

Rats!! Now you tell me. I thought you conceded and that I had won. Now I have to start over with you.

Bob

No, it's O.K., you don't have to start over. I just can't admit that you won in public -- it's bad for business.

[wpines]

Although there are a thousand crossover threads if you use the "search"function, this is a good thread and a current one. Would someone please comment on their opinion of the relative merits and/or disadvantages of the ALK Extreme Slope networks in comparison to the other options being discussed here?

[Deang]

It's like every other network; you have people that like them and people that don't. Some people that I have a lot of respect for really dig them: Shawn Fogg, jwcullison, Mark1101, and that Al guy of course. I'm kind of lukewarm to them, and so is Craig who recently got a chance to try them. There are a lot of purely technical reasons to like them, but I had issues. They emasculate the "horn sound". They lost much of that "dynamic sound", and took on the personality of a polite cone speaker. Boring. 12 feet back, I could hear instruments moving between the drivers -- very annoying. The only thing they did well was in the imaging department, pretty impressive actually. It takes some power before they come into their element, but by that time it was way too loud for 90% of my listening. Nothing here I haven't told Al -- his response to me was that I liked the sound of comb filtering and distortion.

[Mallette]

Dean:

What do you consider "loud?" My opinion and preference is that anything less than very close to "real" volume=inaccurate reproduction just as missing octaves, distortion, or other issues.

That means that, for me, too loud would be 80db for a harpsichord (60db would be intolerable for a clavichord), but 96db just adequate for the John Wanamaker organ.

Of course, non-acoustic rock, unless recorded live, has no inherent loudness except that dependent upon the number of beers consumed...

Dave

[Deang]

I consider 90dB pretty loud these days. I didn't measure the SPL with the ESN's -- just noticed that by the time things started sounding pretty good it was louder than I cared to listen.

[mike stehr]

I heard your old Khorns with the original networks (ALK JR?), and then ALK ESN networks at another visit when I picked up LaScala cabinets.

Both were very brief listening sessions. The thing I recall the most was the ESN networks did throw off a wider and taller soundstage.....I dunno....they both sound good to me....

I'm using the DHA circuit in my LaScalas at the moment.

I take it the 10 ohm resistor bridged across the autoformer keeps the impedance from flinging around when changing taps on the autoformer for the midhorn?

Is the .20 millihenrie inductor after the 40 uf and before the T2A, the lowpass cutoff for the midhorn?

I'm using a 6 ohm resistor padded across the CT-125 tweeters, the value in the schematic seems redundant at that high value. I went as high as 20 ohms, and it didn't seem to be attenuated much at all.

I'd like to pull off bandpass with the midhorn, and be able to blend the tweeter in with it.

Since the networks I have are glorified breadboards anyways, I may try some other network types.....

[kevinmi]

David, just to let you know, I've decided to just upgrade my caps and see what that does for the sound. I talked to BEC today while ordering my cap kit, and he is a wonderful person to deal with. 77 bucks for the kit and free shipping! I'll let you know how it goes. -kevin

[Deang]

I heard your old Khorns with the original networks (ALK JR?), and then ALK ESN networks at another visit when I picked up LaScala cabinets.

The networks that shipped with them were 450/4500 first order filters (modifed Type A's).

Both were very brief listening sessions. The thing I recall the most was the ESN networks did throw off a wider and taller soundstage.....I dunno....they both sound good to me...

I told Bob on the phone when we were working out the details on the transaction that I was afraid the networks might not work for him. That whole deal was tweaked for late night listening at around 70-75dB. The Beymas would start to "spit" if I dumped much power into them. I was surprised when he went ESN though -- I kind of figured he might go Universal Type A (ALK). Anyways, yeah -- the imaging is awesome with the ESN.

"I take it the 10 ohm resistor bridged across the autoformer keeps the impedance from flinging around when changing taps on the autoformer for the midhorn?"

O.K., you need to be careful here -- the DHA is a fixed tap design. If you carefully compare the schematic of the ALK and the DHA, you'll notice that on the ALK that there is no common connection on terminal strip for the squawker -- Al floats the "ground'. You have to do the same with the DHA if you want to use the T2A as a pure attenuator.

Is the .20 millihenrie inductor after the 40 uf and before the T2A, the lowpass cutoff for the midhorn?

Yes.

I'm using a 6 ohm resistor padded across the CT-125 tweeters, the value in the schematic seems redundant at that high value. I went as high as 20 ohms, and it didn't seem to be attenuated much at all.

Try a 2 ohm series resistor.

I'd like to pull off bandpass with the midhorn, and be able to blend the tweeter in with it.

Sure, you can do that.Try this: Just use the Type A schematic -- parallel a 15 ohm resistor with the squawker, and change the 13uF value to 26uF.

[mike stehr]

Ok, I'll look over the DHA and ALK networks and correct as needed. I may as well experiment with the type A schematic as well. It isn't hard to lash up different network types on the fly.

I'll try the 2 ohm in series, too...or whatever value I prefer. I picked up some Jantzen silver Z-caps for a good price, maybe to use with the tweeters. Now to pony up for higher values of boutique capacitors. Something I'm not to thrilled about doing, but it may be a necessary evil.

I dunno if Bob is still using ESN networks still or not, that was last Fall. He liked them at the time.....

Thanks for the reply, Dean.

[consistent]

Hi,

I have flung this around from time to time http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html this guy experiments with lots of caps and keeps on updating his work and most times he seems to be on the money but 'horses for courses'

Cheers

[Mallette]

David, just to let you know, I've decided to just upgrade my caps and see what that does for the sound. I talked to BEC today while ordering my cap kit, and he is a wonderful person to deal with. 77 bucks for the kit and free shipping! I'll let you know how it goes. -kevin

Looking forward to your experience.

Dave