Randy Bey Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Spurred by a tweak frenzy and repeated reference to a light hand (if at all) in horn damping I tore off all my dynamat and rope caulk from my Khorns last weekend. The effect was immediate and fairly dramatic. No 'break in' required . Now I am in a quandary, and gentle reader, read on. After taking the damping off, I played some female vocals at around 85dB and gently placed my hand on the various sections of the K400 horn. The vibration, were there any, was subtle at best. Ditto the tweeter. I also noticed during the 'taking off' part that I had done a poor job of mating the dynamat with the K400, and I have been told that it is IMPERATIVE that there is a good mechanical bond between the dampening material and the horn. The rope caulk OTOH adhered well, but was only on the tweeter and the first couple inches of the K400 (nearest the driver). The most immediate effect was an increase in high frequency content. This demonstrated itself as a quality I refer to as 'air', but more along the line of that emminent blowhard HP, where what one hears is the 'air' around each instrument. This became palpable, whereas before it was merely hinted at. This is a good thing. The other side of the coin is the increase in high frequency noise. This is a bad thing. In fact, I am not sure if the two are separable. Remember good old AM radio, where the station sounded a bit more 'crisp' if you slightly de-tuned it? I wonder if the 'air' effect is caused by the brains interpretation of the added noise as high frequency content. In fact, I am wondering now if my tweeters are blown and I have masked that effect with the rope caulk. I will try to get more caulk and perform damping on solely the tweeter ASAP (cuz my system is almost un-listenable) and see if that does the trick. Is this a 'tweak'?, removing the previous tweak? If so, I wish for the days of yore. It was a bit darker, yes, but the highs floated up out of space and sparkled like diamonds. Now they sparkle like diamonds under a 500 watt light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 The Creek is not a good match with the horns I am finding out. A good quality tube preamp is better to me. Also, dont you have Monster Cable as IC? Holy Bright Night! Lastly, Get Rid of Those pathetic Amps! Everyone knows the 300B is a wash! heh.... Lord, if YOUR system is bright, that scares me. BTW, have you fiddled with your driver tubes? Makes a big diff over here. What are your 300b? kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 15, 2002 Author Share Posted January 15, 2002 Way to go, K! Cast aspersions on the REST of my system. And no, I don't (nor have I ever) owned Monster Cable anything. But I agree on the preamp, that Cary might be the better way to go -- send it to me for an audition, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 yes, he's still here... Randy, I noted that you said you did this test at 85dB. My experience with my La Scalas (well, mine for another week, anyway, then off to New York...) is that the degree to which the damping alters the sound increases as volume increases. I noticed a BIG difference for the better when I was hitting peaks of 110dB or so. Continuous levels of 95 - 100dB (which resulted in the 110dB peaks on the stuff I was using to measure) were noticeable, but it was on the transient peak levels where the damping played the most significant role in eliminating a "honk" ish sound in the mids. At levels of 85dB I'm not sure I'd notice a lot of difference. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 17, 2002 Author Share Posted January 17, 2002 I have been giving this more thought and I am fairly well convinced that the issue lies with the tweeter rather than the squawker. As it is smaller and easier to remove, I am going to damp it again and see if that changes things. I never noticed a 'honk' from the midrange, my only concern has been a forward aspect to the speakers that has been difficult (pre damping) to alleviate. Hey Ray, hope you don't feel bad. My own business came within an RCH (that's an engineering term) of tanking this summer. Went w/o pay for over half the year. Things are a bit better now but still not out of the woods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 Okay, I'll, er, bite... I know what a CH is. What's the "R" part? Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLUngurait Posted January 17, 2002 Share Posted January 17, 2002 uh...well Ray the "C.H." part is certainly more interesting...The "R" can stand for either "Red" or "Royal" depending on who you ask. I myself perfer "Red"! I'd like to say that I know alot more about these types of things than I do about speakers but...I need more time in the field..don't we all? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 18, 2002 Author Share Posted January 18, 2002 Well red of course. But scientific evidence suggests that b for blonde would be even 'finer', no pun intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 18, 2002 Share Posted January 18, 2002 ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 21, 2002 Author Share Posted January 21, 2002 Oh how fickle the fates are. I have revised my opinion regarding damping horns. It would seem that the first track I listened to has what I would describe as mike saturation here and there, when the vocalist belts out the words. This first impression is what lasted for the longest in my rig. I went through an extensive selection of music two weekends ago now. I did not always hear the glare as evident on this referenced track, but I did hear brighter sound in general. This should come as no surprize. Ever put your hand in a glass of lukewarm water, then after a minute move it to a glass of cold water? I spent another 'agonizing' weekend here, listening critically to most all of my 'reference' tracks. I am now of the opinion that: a) initially my rig sounded too forward. the damping moved it back closer to 'straight' c) subsequent component changes produced a leaning towards 'dark' d) removing the damping moved it back closer to 'straight'. The 'dark' sound was more forgiving of such tracks as I mentioned, while the straightup sound shows them, warts and all. I am going to live another week or two or three and see what I think. In the meanwhile I have a friend whose ears I trust and will have him over for a listen. My main lack is a reference point. This makes comparisons difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 Randy, You've been surprisingly analytical and honest. Most people, including me, want to prove something to themselves or somebody else with their tweaks. So, the tweak always sounds better, regardless of the truth. I have always tried to address a physical and audible problem with my changes. For instance, I changed caps in order to make the original Type AA and the Lab-built Type AA match in value and cape type. the happy coincidence was the tweeter caps smoothed the sound. The Hovlands on the squawkers wasted about a $100. The same thing was behind Dynamat. I heard a ring with some piano notes that I could feel with my hands a well. I had read about Dynamat being used for vibration damping in cars and tried it. Later I found out Altec built some of their horns with tar-filling. It is my opinion that a vibration in a cabinet or horn, no matter how pleasant or "involving", is undesireable and unwanted. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Perhaps, so John. Yet in fixing that vibration, you can sometimes introduce other problems and end up doing more harm to the reproduction. IT is just this very point I am trying to ascertain. So far, my 2A3 triode system sounds extremely smooth with good detail without harsh glare or ringing. It does let me know when I am working through a bad recording but I dont see too many of the side effects of the ringing horns yet. When I rap my mid horn it sounds pretty "thunk" like without much overshoot. So as is, without modifications, I dont seem to be receiving the negatives that ride along with undamped horns. Perhaps I will break down a try it for educational purposes. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Grab some rope caulk and dive in there! I have some junk metal 12 ohm Sansui horn tweeters that ring like dinner bells. (I could see damping aiding these tweeters.) How could a guy notice a ringing overshoot in plastic horn mid/tweeters? What would this be noticed as? THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 "When I rap my mid horn it sounds pretty "thunk" like without much overshoot. " And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The K400 horn is much larger than the K700 in the Cornwall.Smaller = more rigid.The K400 also handles a lot more energy by virtue of it being crossed over about an octave lower.I'd like to see you do your 'thunk' test on the plastic K401.Of course your 2A3 with its 3.25W won't do justice to something like the Sheffield Drum Record and maybe you can't excite the resonances that plague people that like this kind of program material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 22, 2002 Author Share Posted January 22, 2002 Kelly, I couldn't help but notice the crossover in your picture. The PIO caps are practically shiny! As are the transformers. Mine, and they are quite old of course, all have a patina of rust on them. And the driver on that tweeter! What a honker. But yes, the K400 is a bigun. And it's solid metal, but the issues I have with it are at somewhat lower volumes with somewhat quieter material than DJK mentions. And, for what it's worth, I am capable of self-delusion, ala Tom Brennan, but eventually that complacency slips away. I am wondering if I like the darker sound or not. I liken this to adjusting the 'contrast' on your TV. What is right? That which looks most like real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 djk, I think you do SET amps a bit of an injustice with you comments, measurements notwithstanding. The very fact that you mention the Sheffield Labs Drum record is amusing in and of itself; do you listen to this record for enjoyment very often? The power supply in my Moondogs is EXREMELY stiff and very well regulated, using top notch caps and a choke. The idea that 200w is needed to achieve bass is a prosaic one. I get as deep and tuneful bass as I have with even above average solid state designs with good power supplies. I am still chuckling about the Sheffield Labs Track/Drum Record reference. I hadnt heard that reference for quite a while.... IF you sit around testing your speakers with drum solos to look for ringing...well, power to you. I think my system does very well with drums... Max Roach, Elvin Jones, Mitch Mitchell, John Bonham...all are done with great tone and presence with no real ringing. Since I have been playing drums for over 30 years and still have my vintage Ludwigs from the 60s, I can say I have a bit of experience in assessing the sound reproduction of a drum kit and cymbals. Now your comments pertaining to the difference in the horn size and crossover point seems valid to me. I have not heard the Khorns in years and years, and only on solid state amps, the last being a Linn pre/power combo in the early 80s. Perhaps that ringing you needed to fix might be from the 200w solid state power house from the 70s? Man, those modified Phase Linear amps kick ***! Of course, no commercial solid state device holds a candle to the DIY solid state dream with proper caps...it's all in the caps...right? Of course, I'm just giving you a hard time. Perhaps the dampening is needed. Indeed. I am happy I dont feel the need for the putty yet. kh - Randy, I would think the more true to life and faithful to the overtones of the recording would be the more desired. On the other hand, if it renders many of your favorite recordings as unlistenable, then that is another story. There still might be something within your system to correct this. Alas, maybe a bit of dampening is needed...but not overdone. As for the drivers and crossover within my CW, they are in excellent shape, looking almost brand new. It surprised me when I first opened it up as well. I agree with you that some of this ringing problem might even be more noticable with a piano which is extremely hard to reproduce. In my mind, dampening has the ability to perhaps inhibit the presence of air and life in the recording if overdone. I have found dampening to be easy to overdo in the past with all sorts of equipment. This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-23-2002 at 09:41 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 23, 2002 Author Share Posted January 23, 2002 Last night I was listening to one of my guilty pleasures, "Jewel, Pieces of You" which is pretty much all little-girl-with-acoustic-guitar music. I was fairly drunk with the beauty of it. On track 4, whatever the hell that one is, there is a piano. Now, in my book, pianos (and brass instruments, for a different reason) are one of the most difficult to reproduce musical instruments out there. Mostly one listens to a thing that could be a piano, is doing piano-like things, so must be a piano in the recordings. This piano, now, was truly alive. However I have sinned. Only two weeks after yanking off the dampening material, I changed the input tubes on my amps to 5691s. They've been settling in since Saturday. I'm still on the fence about the rope caulk. It's very hard to decide what is right and wrong. I have a bit of a cold right now but when I have recovered I will have a friend over whose ears I trust. It's always good to have an objective opinion. He's into Maggies and they are the only other classification of speakers that I admit capable of good sound, other than horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 quote: Originally posted by mike stehr: How could a guy notice a ringing overshoot in plastic horn mid/tweeters? What would this be noticed as? Anyone? Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 I meant vibration of a plastic horn. I don't experience 'Rapid listening Fatigue', so I geuss I'm safe. I don't feel like tearing into my speakers to put rope caulk on the plastic horns, because the difference, would more than likely be small if even at all. Now a metal horn, with standing bass waves? At 1 meter banging on a cheesy Sansui 12 ohm metal horn with a bic lighter, (Out of cabinet,BTW) I get 92 to 94Db, 90 range, C weight on slow, with a rat shack SPL meter. I know this makes no point whatsoever, but wouldn't rope caulk applied properly, kill ringing in a horn from standing bass waves? (If the bass waves were a source of the ringing?) Not diaphragms, just the horn itself. THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 It may be crude drawing, but I see what you are explaining from it. THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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