jks20 Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Well my khorns will be arriving in a few weeks and within this time I would like to purchase a tube set up for them. My budget is $3000. Around 1000 for a preamp and 2000 on an amp. Any suggestions would be appreciated. The only other peice I have picked out for the system besides the khorns is the ah tjoeb cd player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Re: The amps take a look at Antique Sound lab,Jolida and Anthem. Whichever you choose that is going to be one sweet system. ------------------ It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 look at rogue tempest intergrated amp. www.rogueaudio.com i would like Mobiles thought's on this. i'm thinking about this for my system. danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 unlike most cone speakers that I hear, big old horns deserve a quality front-end, I would seriously consider 2A3, possibly even 45, tube amps from Bottlehead, Wright Sound, Wellbourne Labs and Don Garber. The combination will put you into an audiphile league of which many of us can only dream. Bottlehead amps are simple to make kits. See my review of their custom Paramour at: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/paramour-tube-amplifier-4-2001.html The Don Grabber's Fi X is a good 2A3 amp for less than a grand. Don Garber knows 2A3's. No web site, call 718-625-7353 George Wright is very highly regarded. His amps will be more expensive than the Bottlehead ones. They are at: http://www.wright-sound.com/ The Wellbourne Moondog amps appear to be even better, with some great reviews from listeners. See http://12.16.160.65/moondogs/ for Kelly's great home page and go to http://www.welbornelabs.com/ By the way, Positive Feedback article (volume 8, number four) is an excellent comparison of the Wright and Wellbourne 2A3 amps. I am also of the schoolthat the mid-bass and the low bass should be powered by stornger tubes or SS amps. so plan on a powered sub-woofer someday ... ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jks20 Posted January 15, 2002 Author Share Posted January 15, 2002 Hello, Thanks for all the replies. So what you are saying is that going low powered set amps that the klipschorns will not supply sufficient bass output. They will be used for music only. I would like to use them without having to implenent a sub. Would going higher power tube amps supply sufficient bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 jks--Generally SS does the bass a little tighter and with better definition than tubes do, SS won't make the speaker go deeper though. It's really no big deal, tradeoffs you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jks20 Posted January 15, 2002 Author Share Posted January 15, 2002 I know. I know that I want to go tubes. Right know I'm looking at a BAT VK60 does anyone have experience with this tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 I have a BAT CD player and I must say it is wonderful and the folks back there in Delaware have been great. I am also partial to push-pull tube amps (I'm a McIntosh fan and have been FOREVER), and can say with authority that a 60 watt p/p amp will give all the bass the K-Horn can deliver. I'm not sure you can say the same about a 3 watt 2A3 amp--I auditioned a pair of ULTRA-expensive (over 8 grand!) SE 2A3 monoblocks a while back and while I REALLLLLY liked them for their pure, liquid midrange and high end, they certainly didn't have the "ooomph" on the bottom end that my old MC-30s have. I would try to audition a VK-60 and an SE amp IN YOUR HOME and come to your own conclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 What a great 2A3 amp like the Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs DO have, is an amazing open quality that is hard to put into words as it is not really equaled by any push pull tube amp I have ever heard. Indeed, once you taste this immediacy and open quality, a character that does present a completely unfettered presentation allowing the music to breathe with an ebb and flow that seems reeled in and slightly truncated via normal push pull amps (tube or solid state), you are addicted to it...and a trip back to the more congested push pull seems like a certain something was added BACK to the music, a something or character that is like adding a sweater on a mild day... The single ended tube amp is perhaps the most intimate and direct communication to the recording. When it is on and firing on all cylinders, I have felt it was near BETTER than live...as if I was taken within the notes. It is a certain type of transparency that surpasses the normal "hi-fi" audiophile slate which tends to attack the listener with detail without the music or soul of the event. Push-pull DOES get the soul but it loses that intimacy, that magic that allows you to see within the performance. The first time I heard a single ended triode amplifier was way back in 89-90, before much of it had come back to light. The Japanese had been getting into it but it was virtually unknown in the United States. I lived right outside of Cary, NC which is the home of Cary Audio Design. Dennis Had was trying out single ended via this pair of 300B monoblocks that was to be known as the Cary 300se. At that time, I happened to be running 200w, heavily Class A biased solid state monoblocks. I was in the clean power camp. My girlfriend and I stopped by the local hi-fi hut to peruse this new company that had only been in the area for a year or so. In the main room were this pair of long narrow monoblocks with exposed tube....at the time, I thought they were very wild looking. When I inquired about them, I was informed these were single-ended 300b amps with a whopping 8w of power per channel! I was dumbfounded. I had never or heard of anything like it. For Christ's sake, that was less wattage than my car deck! I have written this several times now so I'll just quote it verbatim, from the first time I posted about it via Rec.Audio.Tubes: "I have been too many audio stores in my lifetime, some obviously better than others, although none were able to match an in home experience....except ONE. It's 1990 or so. I was in Cary, NC visiting ol TOM at Advanced Audio. Well, more like bugging Tom...but anyway... In his main listening room were two small exposed tube amps from Cary Audio, a set of rosewood ProAc mini towers, and a modified Cary Audio SLP-70 with a Pioneer Laserdisc/CD player. The little monoblocks were only 8 watts each. They were this thing ole Dennis Had was trying out called "single ended." Remember now, this is BEFORE the big single-ended exodus. Well, let me just get to the point. This was the BEST sound I had ever heard in my life. I just turned out the lights and listened. And OH WHAT SOUND IT WAS! The soundstage was so deep and articulate, I was almost shocked. The definition and complete natural qualities of the sound coming from this setup left me literally in tears. It was almost BEYOND goosebumps to the direct communication of the musical event itself. I listened to music that I didn't even LIKE and it moved me! The communication of emotion and nuance from these little 8 watt amps was something I had never experienced but at a live event, and even then, it almost felt BETTER than live if that's possible. The laserdisc player was a precursor to the THETA laserdisc player based machines. I stayed for several hours listening to these 300B amps and left remembering them to everyone I knew, whether they cared or not. They had limitations which I explored that day. But within their limitations, there were none finer. I have since heard the big 805 Carys and I still think the original 300SE amps were the best they had to offer. By the way, they also had this experimental massive box of power filtration hooked up to the monoblocks...a double bank of monster blue caps! I never heard any of Had's designs again with that contraption hooked up but I do think it made a difference as well. Only years later did the single ended craze start to take hold. It started with me back in that store in 1990..." f>s> Reading that makes me realize that was a damn long time ago... and it was amazing how long the memory of that first exposure to the 300B SET amp has hung with me, surely longer than any other audio experience I have encountered before or since, to be honest. It is easy to be jaded these days. Yet I still remember that first time like yesterday. It took me quite a few years later to finally jump headlong into the low watt tube camp but I have surely found that power does indeed corrupt....unless you NEED it. Which is what is so great about something like the Klipschorn or others of that ilk. With a 104dB sensitivty, you can now DIVE head long into quality SET amplification and not suffer the lack of volume or output. Indeed, as I have said many times within this forum, my 2A3 monoblocks deliever bass with amazing tone and coherency, and with a slam and impact that betters many, many solid state brethren (my friend and I both agreed that it betters the bass quality of the Bryston 4B-ST). Yet, I still do love push-pull, I just dont think it equals the magic of a good SET amp with the right speakers. IT is nice to have both.... But if you have a 104dB set of speakers, you owe it to yourself to test the waters of the magical first watt, something that is fullfilled with the direct purity of the Single-Ended Triode. kh Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-16-2002 at 01:24 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conductor Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Wow! Mobe, you remind me of Charlton Heston when he came down from the mountain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 I have to agree about the quantity and quality of bass put out by my Moondog 2A3 amps. It really amazes me that I am getting this much bass out my Khorns with these amps. I had been using an LF-10 (dialed to the lowest crossover point and not very loud on the volume dial) to supplement the lower bass but I have quit using it completely since getting the Moondogs. I can also hear now that the LF-10 was not as good a match for the Khorns as I had previously thought. ------------------ Ed W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 the bass I am talking about on the big old horns is the amount below the 50-40 Hz where the full range speakers give out, yes the LF10 could do better, though clearance models were about $450, a pair of the SVS would be better, Khrons have the same great bass than many full range speakers have, they just don't have the sub-40 low bass that most moderate full range speakers miss, the 2A3 is first, however, get the best you can afford, the speakers really are worth it, even a Parts Express cheapo sub will show you want I mean about the sub-woofer, very good for music like rock and piano, great for movies, wonderful for action moives like Matric or U-571, with such wonderful 2-channels as Khorns can give you, there is little need to rush to the special effects of multi-channel sound, so get a really good flea-powered amp, your extreme-efficiency horns are one of the few speakers that can actually use such subtle and refined power, a $1500 2A3 amp will put your horns into a high-end audio class that the dealers can barely touch with $15K worth of modern style equipment! ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Am I the only one that hates to mix HT with audio??? I dont even like to have a tuner or tape deck hooked to me system, even though I have excellent tape decks (reel to reel and Cassette). I have my tuner and/or decks hooked to my second system. The idea of hooking up my Television and/or video to my system is about as appealing as sitting in a vat of whey... although....that isnt that bad a thought either... Subs with Khorns? Why bother. It only serves to muck a music system up in my opinion. So much can be lost trying to achieve that 20hz region. I guess I dont think of my system as an amusement park ride, which is very much what Home theatre has become. Alas, the best movies are not served by a massive subwoofer and sub 20hz bass. I love movies...but have felt little need for the HT approach. My brother, on the other hand, is exactly the opposite. He has a HT system that will rattle your doors and cranium. Watching dreck like "Pearl Harbor" can actually fool with your heart beat! Of course, that was the problem... We were watching dreck like Pearl Harbor to HEAR the amazing bam, pow, crack, boom. And it was amazing, I will give you that. Still.... it bordered on a fair ride... I guess there are just two camps here. I find subs to really add a little something that masks the musical event ... if not the impact. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-16-2002 at 12:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 I think randy bey would second the motion about the moondogs! he was searching and searching for quite a while for an amp and seems to be thrilled, almost a year later, with the moondogs...I have to "make do" with a old set of dynaco MkIVs modded to triode...not a 2A3 or 300B...but darn those k-horns love tubes! regards, tony ------------------ *1993 K-Horns w/ ALK x-overs*Marantz 7T preamp*Dynaco MkIV monoblocks (modded to triode)*Sony CDP-CX350 and CX-230 CD changers*MSB link DACIII (96k upsampling)*MSB silver digital director (for switching and jitter reduction)*Technics M-85 professional Cassette Deck*SAE MK VIII tuner*Luxman PD-272 turntable, Grado Red cartridge*Cardas Crosslink speaker cable*Monster M550i for all interconnects*Monster HTS3500 Reference Powercenter Conditioner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Actually, ole Randy has the Welborne Labs Laurel IIx 300B Monoblocks, not the 2A3 Moondogs. Still, he loves those amps as well. I just think the Moondogs beat them out! heh... I love to get ole Randy going. For two new Moondogs owners, see Edster00 and Jazman. I happen to know ole Ed is ecstatic with his Moondog-Khorn pairing as he has written me many times about it...as well as post above. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 Yes, the Moondogs have ended my search for the "perfect" amps for me (so far...)! I did go through several different SS and tube amps until I was satisified with the sound I was getting. I don't mix my 2 channel system with my HT either, my HT is in a different room on a different floor of my home. My Khorns are in my 2 channel system and I really don't miss the sub at all. Now if I were really into organ music or something that would be a different story. ------------------ Ed W This message has been edited by edster00 on 01-16-2002 at 02:11 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jks20 Posted January 16, 2002 Author Share Posted January 16, 2002 It sounds like the moondogs are the way to go. I have a few other questions. I listen to most rock, for example creed,lifhouse,etc. I like to listen at around 90-95 decibels from my seating position of around 15 ft. away from where the speakers will be located. My 2 channel only room is about 16ft. wide by 22 ft. long. Will the moondogs provide the sound you describe and this is the sound I'm looking for, at my given listening levels and the dimensions of my room . Also what preamp would you recommend to use with the combination of the khorns and the moondog. I have a little over a thousand left after I purchase the amps to spend on a preamp. Once again thanks for all the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 CREED???? Lord. Mother of Jehovah. On second thought, ditch the Moondog idea and go with a really well designed push pull tube amp with a great power supply. Come to think of it, maybe YOU would be happy with the T16 OTL amp. http://www.transcendentsound.com/T16OTL.htm This might be just what you are after. I think the Moondog will do rock well (I listen to it all the time) but based on those two examples as your FIRST, I would probably go to something like that T16. Creed sounds like Satan with a Fender Stratocaster released into a hell pit with molten lava as a side-kick. You dont want to see into the subtle nature of the music as much as rocket to Russia... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 jks20, While I love my Moondogs I am sure they are not for everybody! Why else would there be so many good tube (and SS) amps out there? That being said, I am able to get the SPL's you are looking for with my Moondogs (with the ultimate parts upgrade). My listening room is about the same size as yours (a couple of ft. less wide) and I sit a bit farther back than you ~17'. The other thing about my listening room is it is in an open unfinished basement, it does not have 2 of its walls up yet. There is a pool table right in the center between me and the Khorns. The actual room is kind of "L" shaped with the vertical part of the "L" being the listening room and the horizontal part of the "L" being a rectangle ~15' x 25'. I could not get the SPL's that I wanted with Decware Zen monoblocks or with an ASL MGSI-15DTS. My preamp is a AES AE-3 Super Preamp DJH edition. I much prefer this pre to the Cary SLP-74 I had for a little while with the Moondogs. ------------------ Ed W This message has been edited by edster00 on 01-16-2002 at 04:10 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 How would a pair of Moondogs fare with a pair of Chorus II's? They claim to be 101 decibel efficiency. THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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