UPDATING CROSSOVER CAPACITORS {Need Advice}

[kb5obw]

Hi to the group, I am updating several crossover capacitors in my Cornwalls and Belles. I would like some advice on what brand has a good product at a reasonable price.Also is there any advantage of a 1% over a 5% or will a 10% do. I do want to replace these caps with ones that are as good as the original or better.I notice there are several different types and manufactures. Im sure I should be asking other questions but I am also sure the GURUS out there will inform me.I have been asking a lot of questions on this forum and have been getting a lot of good answers. Your input is valuable to me. Thanks a bunch, Bill

[WMcD]

If you have not checked out Parts Express, you should. I buy from them, when I buy.

http://www.partsexpress.com/crossover-capacitor-index.cfm

In my few projects I've used the Dayton poly and sometimes slightly more expensive.

I refuse to believe that the very high priced units are anything than functionally equivalent to the lower priced, just with more artful claims and a higher price tag. Granted, some people report wonders.

As far as tolerance, I can't see that 10% is going to make a good design, bad. Others may disagree..

Gil

[Blvdre]

http://www.partsconnexion.com provides a matching service, $1.00 a pair. That way, you don'y have to worry about tolerances.

[SET12]

Hi to the group, I am updating several crossover capacitors in my Cornwalls and Belles. I would like some advice on what brand has a good product at a reasonable price.Also is there any advantage of a 1% over a 5% or will a 10% do. I do want to replace these caps with ones that are as good as the original or better.I notice there are several different types and manufactures. Im sure I should be asking other questions but I am also sure the GURUS out there will inform me.I have been asking a lot of questions on this forum and have been getting a lot of good answers. Your input is valuable to me. Thanks a bunch, Bill

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the Forum, I guess I might by many to be considered extreme! in what I have done with my crossovers but I have found the investment worth every penny I have spent so far!

I guess it largely depends on how much your interest in performance is!

Check these sites out on cap sound!

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htm

If your looking for just a simple up date I can certainly recommend Bob Crites I found his Titanium Tweeter and Autotransformer to a great upgrade! And he offers full network upgrades as well.

I also like the sound of ALK crossovers which the midrange is user adjustable and IMO is a very valuable tool to dial your systems performance in with!

SET12

[joshnich]

For what it's worth, I have found that upgrading the networks in my Belles has been one of the most satisfying and noticeable of all system upgrades. My first upgrade was from Bob Crites, basically a rebuilt stock network. The improvement was phenomenal. I then upgrades to a Jensen capped stock aa and again experienced significant benefit. Next up was one of Deans Super AAs that coincided with a trachorn addition and the Bob Crites tweeter. The super aa's had the ability to adjust the crossover points which was useful given the abilities of the new tweeter and the trachorn. My final change was to a custom V-capped network that is just the cat's meow.

Put me in the camp that believes that the quality of the caps do make a difference.

Josh

[jerohm]

http://www.soniccraft.com/sonicaps.htm

These are a good reasonable choice WITHOUT spending an arm and a leg - if you want to experiment. Are you going to be amazed? ( The BEST upgrade, I personally EVER found, was having a center speaker IDENTICAL to the front mains - irrespective of any capacitor mod. )

[Erik Mandaville]

"If you have not checked out Parts Express, you should. I buy from them, when I buy.

http://www.partsexpress.com/crossover-capacitor-index.cfm

In my few projects I've used the Dayton poly and sometimes slightly more expensive.

I refuse to believe that the very high priced units are anything than functionally equivalent to the lower priced, just with more artful claims and a higher price tag. Granted, some people report wonders."

As above.

I've used Dayton poly capacitors many times, and they have been very good for the money; and every bit as 'good' (IMO, IME) as some costing many times the price, which I have also tried. If you are able, maybe it would be worth auditioning some different types and brands of the needed values, and let that help with discovering what works best for you. It's possible to pay extra for matched tolerance values, which has not been a worry for me. For others, a 10% rating may be too high, so that may be an issue for them. When I listen to music, the ability (or interest) to quickly distinguish between a 5% 2uf cap and 1% 2uf cap would be non-existent. If you can detect a difference and one sounds better to you than the other, and cost isn't a factor, it's entirely your call.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

"Put me in the camp that believes that the quality of the caps do make a difference."

I agree with this 100%. I also think that the difference a part makes has a closer correlation with the design in which it's used than what it cost. "Different" is not always better, in other words. For my part, there have been times the more expensive part was judged to be better, sometimes it wasn't; and the cheaper cap or resistor or choke was used for the component while the more expensive part was used to take up space in a parts bin -- then used for something else where it resulted in an improvement.

Put simply: over the past couple of decades, I remember times where I tried a given part that was indeed constructed very well and would have lasted a long time, but just did not sound as good (or any better) to me as the decent-quality-but-cheaper part I already had on hand.

Where one is able to try for oneself and/or learn very basic soldering technique, it can be extremely liberating to have the freedom to make a choice based on one's own preference, rather than be told by someone else that the more OR less expensive part will be best.

Erik

[Deang]

Polyesters sound different than polypropylenes, and polypropylene film sounds different than the metallized variety. Of the metallized variety, which most end up using -- some of the inexpensive brands impart an etched quality to the high frequencies. Solens are a fine example of this and I'll only use them in low pass sections. I do agree with some of what Erik is saying, for example; the Hovland, which is a very good film type -- can really wear on the nerves after a while in Klipsch tweeter filters.

Auricaps, Kimbers, Sonicaps -- all of the quality metallized types sound a little different to me. It very well might just be in my head, but I notice it nonetheless -- and I AM a sucker for caps wrapped in yellow tape.

I consider the Daytons to be a pretty decent entry level type, but I would use the Jantzen Z-Standard for a budget cap in tweeter filters. They come in 1.8uF and 2.2uF, and I would go with the 1.8's. The great majority of caps run to the high side of their stated value, and just about anything marked "1.8uF" is going to run between 1.85 and 1.9 -- plenty close enough. I have no problem using 10% 12uF caps for Klipschorn, LaScala, and Belle networks. I've never bought one that after measuring didn't put me within 5% of the needed value (13uF). Really, in the world of first order filter sections even being 20% off the mark probably isn't going to have much impact.

I still say that if you're going to go through the trouble to do your networks, live a little and get pretty yellow caps instead of ugly black or white ones. )

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Check out Clarity Caps. The PX Series are very reasonable and rate very high on Tony Gee's site.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

[Blvdre]

Tiger, I was just about to suggest the same. Even the Clarity SA series is reasonably priced. haven't tried 'em yet, but have some new crossovers to build, so will give them a try.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Tiger, I was just about to suggest the same. Even the Clarity SA series is reasonably priced. haven't tried 'em yet, but have some new crossovers to build, so will give them a try.

I'll never use Solen's or Daytons again now that I know about these.

[Erik Mandaville]

"I'll never use Solen's or Daytons again now that I know about these."

That's exactly my point. That you don't care for Dayton or Solen caps doesn't make them inferior, except for you. Try different types and brands; use what works best for the sound-catchers on YOUR head, not those of someone else.

I think Solens and Daytons are great regardless of their price.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

I admit, 'Solen' and 'Dayton' don't have much of a catchy name -- like MUSIcap, or SONIcap, or CLARITYcap, or AURIcap, or JUPITERcap (they must sound out of this world).

One of the best single-ended amp circuits I've built and heard uses INVISIcaps. edit: wink

[tigerwoodKhorns]

"I'll never use Solen's or Daytons again now that I know about these."

That's exactly my point. That you don't care for Dayton or Solen caps doesn't make them inferior, except for you. Try different types and brands; use what works best for the sound-catchers on YOUR head, not those of someone else.

I think Solens and Daytons are great regardless of their price.

Erik

Erik,

I was actually going to add the following to that response but just posted it.

The Clarity Caps are the same price as the Solens. I have never compared them and cannot say if they definately make a difference. I have used Solens in several pairs of Klipsch speakers, bypassed Daytons in JBL's and Clarity Caps in B&W's. To the extent that the Clarity Caps are well regarded and are the same price as the Solens, I used the Clarity Caps. I have only built one pair of crossovers in the last year and it was in the B&W's with Clarity Caps.

I will use the Clarity Caps in the future. I am pretty sure that they are used in the B&W Nautilus speakers (802 and up). I'm not sure if it will make a difference but why not if it is the same price?

I had good results with the bypassed Daytons, but they were in JBL L100T's, not exactly the most detailed speakers ever made. The Solens could sound bright in Klipsch at times. I'd be interested in hearing the Clarity Caps in Klipsch.

[Erik Mandaville]

"I will use the Clarity Caps in the future. I am pretty sure that they are used in the B&W Nautilus speakers (802 and up). I'm not sure if it will make a difference but why not if it is the same price?"

Absolutely! I completely agree. That's the thing that is nice about learning how to solder: One does not have to rely on others to make the choice of capacitor, resistor, or whatever else. I have seen your networks, by the way, and you've done some neat work! My point again was just that we (as a collective) often perceive the sound quality of music differently, and can thus make individual choices about how to go about altering or shaping sounds to our own liking. I've learned to not make cost part of my decision making process, because I have found it unreliable in terms of its relationship to performance. I have used some of the most expensive capacitors available because they sounded best in a given circuit, yet on other occasions chose a very inexpensive part -- but not because of its lower cost. Because it sounded better. The price wasn't even considered.

Another example: The drivers in our two channel system now cost over $2,000/pair for JUST the drivers alone. No cabinet. Our Klipschorns, including a total of six drivers and a like-new pair of complex horn-loaded cabinets were $500 less than that. Of course money comes into play sometimes -- I'm a public school art teacher, after all. I have just found, as far as my own tastes and preferences, that what sounds good to me in terms of passive part selections is not something that is (always) determined by cost in the sense that 'more expensive' universally equates with better performance.

The Clarity caps sound like they might be a great value, and I can tell you are happy with your B&Ws. I know someone who has a pair of B&W monitors in his office system, and I was very impressed by the sound.

Erik

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Erik,

The Clarity caps are actually in an older pair of B&W's, and I do like them.

Are you building any crossovers that need 6.8 uF's? I have an extra pair of Clarity Cap SA's (the higher end ones) and would be happy to send them to you free of charge.

Chris

[kb5obw]

Hi to the group, I have been away from the computer for a few days and surprised at the responce here. I have been doing some price checks on the different caps out there and some are quite costly. I will probably stay in the mid price range caps.I think I am leaning towards Clarity and sonicaps.I guess when it comes to picking out caps, its like picking out speakers,everybody likes something different. I will start with these and see what happens. I am getting lots of good advice here,Great Group! Thanks for all of your input, BILL

[Blvdre]

Chris

If Erik doesn't need the 6.8's, and you don't think you'll use 'em down the road, I'd be happy to take 'em off your hands. The new network I'm currently building uses a 6.8 per side for the contour circuit. I'm building it up with the inexpensive Solens, and if the values pan out, I'll replace them with Clarity's.

[Erik Mandaville]

Chris:

I just now saw this, and wanted to thank you very much for that kind offer. I honestly don't need something in that value right now, but just for kicks might order a couple to use in the Klipschorn networks. As you said, they are also reasonably priced.

Thanks again!

Erik