La Scala's bass question?????

[Chris A]

...Being in the near field pressure zone tightens up their eardrums and distorts the pitch they hear. Being in the free field (audience) all I could do was cringe!...

I also cringe when bassists don't find the right place on the fingerboard.

Maybe it's just me, but poorly reproduced bass actually bothers me - I'd rather not
have it around if it is above about 10% THD. I like to have my music the
way it was performed. That is why I invested in the speakers that I have: well designed horn-loaded radiators with very low distortion. You can correct for frequency-dependent response, but there is no reasonable fix for distortion except buying better speakers.

Chris

[Blvdre]

As for distortion, the low bass region is the least critical in that regard. My father was a professional musician for a number of years, and he told me that when he was playing the string bass that most listeners could not even tell whether he was playing in tune or not. Distortion from tweeters is easy to hear, from woofers not so easy, and from subwoofers fairly difficult. Put your ear to the grille of a sub and see if you can pick out any distortion. I sure can't.

But playing in tune (or not) has to do with pitch variation, not distortion. Although your father's statement does hint to the fact that many people can't discern slight pitch variations in LF.

It would be interesting to see a study of distortion, and a person's ability to detect it v.s. frequency. It may be true that bass distortion is harder to detect, or it may be that it's just as easy to detect, but less objectionable.

[NOSValves]

They have Bob C's tweeters and AA XO that has been cryoed.

Trying preheating your oven and un-cryo the networks [] Sorry but Cryo treating a set of XO's is just plain crazy. In fact Cryo treating anything is getting near straight jacket time...

But seriously...Lascalas absolutely have to have corners to produce any bass below about 60 - 70 Hz...... Add a very expensive and quick subwoofer or find a way to slide the Lascalas in the corners.

As far as the bass being boomie.....I'd have to question the amplifiers or other upstream components ability to control the woofers and/or the room acoustics...

Craig

[Guest " "]

you folks should review the below discussion .

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-32205.html

Apparently, two of the bass strings are below the range of the lascala cab. The laScala cab starts to roll off at 53 hz and is -10 db by the time it gets to 40hz and by the time it gets to 30 hz.....forgetaboutit.

On the other end, above 400hz, goes to the mid drivers, so there goes a few more strings.

So it seems a wide range direct radiator is the time tested way to go.

[playntheblues]

The amp is a 4 month old Spectron Musician III SE and the preamp is an Exemplar Exception with the new cathode follower upgrade. I also have a TADAC tube DAC which is in the system. The electronics are quite good! There are now corners or back wall to be had which may be my problem.

[ClaudeJ1]

was referring to the ability (or lack of it) of some subs to match the transient (or impulse) response of the LS bass bin, which some subs are said to have difficulty with.

Look at my avatar

[jbsl]

WOW, a lot of comments to respond to. Ok the floor is carpet, speakers are 9' apart listening seat is about 11' from speakers, speakers are 7' from back wall due to stairwell. I will try lifting the speakers 6 inches and see what happens.

So the speakers are 9 feet apart and 7 feet away from the wall is that correct or did you mean 7 inches from the wall? If the speakers are 7 feet away from the wall that is going to be a bass killer []!

Can you post your room? My room is 15 x 15 x 8 and I have my La Scalas on 6 1/2 inch risers tucked into the corners. Is there any way you can move your listening seat back to 15 feet and then put the La Scalas in the corners?

[jbsl]

I also have a TADAC tube DAC which is in the system. The electronics are quite good!

I got my TADAC about 6 months ago and have really enjoyed it! What tubes you using with it? I have a pair of Mullard CV 4003 with very good results.

[mark1101]

I agree with Craig, it is probably a combination of the driving equipment and the room. The lascala itself does not have a boomy bass unit. But it can get very boomy if the amp is overdrving certain frequencies and it you have room modes.

My room has a huge problem between 100 and 200hz. I use Owens corning 705 sheets as bass traps which helped tremndously. I also use an EQ to lower those frequencies. Both the traps and EQ made the problem disappear. You are going to need to learn what frequencies are spiking in your room and make some adjustments. More than likely, just moving speakers around is not going to fix it. There is probably nothing wrong with your speakers at all. I used an RTA system to measure my room and the problem presented itself immediately. But if you have an EQ you can find the problem frequencies pretty easily if you are good with using EQs. But the room treatments are the best bet.

[oldbuckster]

Change the woofers, use BEC's Replacement Woofers ............ or get a sub ... if you're playing Rock music you'll never get the BASS you want from those speakers no matter how you position them ..............

[playntheblues]

They are for sale.........$500.00 Local pick up Dallas Texar area [Y]

[PrestonTom]

Gee, $500 is a very reasonable price, very reasonable. Quick question. Are you selling these because you think the "boominess" problem is not solvable or that it would be difficult or expensive to solve?

If so, then let me present some alternatives so you and your speakers can live together.

First if you and I are using the word "boomy" to mean the same thing then let me suggest the following since you have gotten advice that is all over the map.

Forget the idea of replacing the woofer. It is very unlikely to solve the boominess - it may do other things but not the boom.

Forget trying to solve the problem with an expensive or exotic amp. Unless the amp is undersized then this will not solve the boom (a small amp may have difficulty with the lows - but it would be rolled off or distorted and not boomy). BTW an amp is unlikely to restore bass that the speaker was not designed to provide.

Some of the other suggestions would extend the bass to a lower frequency. Those are good ideas but not necessarily attacking the problem you are describing.

Do try re-orienting the cabinets and the listening chair. The best advice you have gotten (if we are discussing what most consider to be "boominess") is that this a room interaction. Certainly there will be room modes (always happens) but some of these may have a long decay time - hence the low-frequency ringing or boominess. Sometimes if the mode is severe then the issue is not so much a "boomy" sound but rather the bass is "one note". That is a certain frequency range is quite exagerated relative to the rest.

In these cases, if re-orienting the speakers and chair do not do the trick, then some absorbent material in the room will help (won't cure it entirely, but it will help). If the mode is at a very, very low frequency, then it becomes difficult to absorb (the wavelength is simply too long), but it can be trapped using a Helmholtz device. These are within reach of the DIYer, but may require some measurement first. BTW: if it is a room interaction, it will occur with other speakers also.

Good Luck and don't give up so easily. They are a speaker that is worth the effort and I am afraid that you have gotten a mixed bag of advice (some good and some not so good). Part of the problem is that folks may use the term: "boomy" differently.

-Tom

[oldbuckster]

Preston Tom ; I'm not being a wise-guy here, but I think he just wants to sell them, and the boominess issue is just the lead in. If he posts them in the Garage Sale section for that price they'll go quick ...................

[PrestonTom]

Preston Tom ; I'm not being a wise-guy here, but I think he just wants to sell them, and the boominess issue is just the lead in. If he posts them in the Garage Sale section for that price they'll go quick ...................

OB, you are probably right and that price they should sell quickly.

I was taking the thread at face value and trying to be helpful.

-Tom

[playntheblues]

OB "'m not being a wise-guy here, but I think he just wants to sell them, and the boominess issue is just the lead in" I wouldn't use the boominess as a lead in. If my plans were to sell them I would have listed them on audiogon and eBay. Where did you come up with that? I brought these speakers up from the band room since there is no longer a band and I had sold my main speakers awhile back. I thought I would give them a go. They are no where near the speakers my K-horns where.

[Islander]

They are no where near the speakers my K-horns where.

La Scalas are not Khorns, but they can be just as satisfying to listen to, as well as easier to get the best performance from. I was a little disappointed with the sound of my LSs when I first got them, but after a bit of tweaking and experimenting with positioning in the room, I was much happier. They don't have to be in corners, but they should be within a foot from the front wall. A sub is also strongly recommended, since their bass does roll off sooner than a Khorn's does.

After a year-and-a-half of very good sound, I did the JubScala conversion and now I'm getting great sound. The only speakers I'd replace these guys with would be a pair of Jubilees.

[playntheblues]

Can you show me what a Jub Scala looks like?

[Islander]

Can you show me what a Jub Scala looks like?

Sure! It's a La Scala with a Jubilee tweeter in either a 510 or 402 horn, bi-amped with an active electronic crossover, or, less frequently, a passive crossover. The crossover settings smooth and boost the bass output, plus the modern tweeter takes the mids and highs to a new level of clarity.

The tweeters (with the 510 horns) can be integrated into the LS cabinet, or set on top for a bigger sound. The 402 horns are bigger than the LS cabinet, so that's a different look altogether, but there's said to be even better sound.

[Islander]

The K-55 and K-77 drivers and the crossover are disconnected, then the woofer and the new tweeter are connected directly to their power amps, one for both tweeters and one for both woofers, with no resistors or capacitors in the signal path. Here's a rear 3/4 view of the new K-69A tweeter in the K510 horn. BTW, that right speaker is nowhere near a corner and the left speaker is 4 feet from its side wall, angled away from the wall.

[oldbuckster]

They are for sale.........$500.00 Local pick up Dallas Texar area

That's where I got that from ........................ You wrote that, not me !!!!!!!!!!!