jwc Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 My problem is the end user then claims to be an audiophile. Btw, how do you know what you like if you don't train your ears? I have found that I have blaimed a lot of things incorrectly until taking the time to learn a bit more....I can't imagine how skewed some people's perspectives are when they've never tried to learn anything about what they hear. Of course, they also seem to be the most vocal about knowing what they like to hear... Bentz. I don't understand what you are trying to say here. I don't know whether I'm an audiophile or not. Doesn't matter....I would never quote that I am one. I'm not really sure I know the definition. But what do you mean "train your ears". I mean...you like what you like....right. I mean what if someone were a total duffas (sp) when it came to the technical understanding but has a lot of years of experience "listening" to different systems. They may not even be able to "put in words' what they are hearing. But they have have "experienced ears" for speakers and have developed a taste for certain presentation. I don't agree with all of Greg's comments (from a listening preference). As I like the jubilee bass bin and I do think it is better than any other bass horns produced by Klipsch. The top section is "different" for sure and I think the K402 horn is "state of the art". Maybe not the driver. Somebody shoot me but I was never really impressed with the Khorn (I'm sure you will dance a jig with that statement) . The bass does nothing for me.....but that is just me. I also like the EV unit to run the jubilee system. Anyway......Greg's comments may be incorrect from a technical standpoint...not sure. But....you like what you like. Whether he is an audiophile or not.....he has a preference and it didn't include the jubilee system. At least he obtained the system before he made negative comments. This might be a first. He could have a different opinion if he had a nice passive and used one of his SET amps....don't know. I'm sure my music preference sets the stage for what speaker will work for me. I mean there are times when I've got some full blown, down right profane rap songs perfusing my speakers. The Jubilee bass bin nor the Khorn will work well for this....IMO. I guess I may also be excluded from the "audiophile league" but I listen to jazz...blues and other stuff that will shine on those systems. Another weird one.....I like a refreshed pair of heresy 1's better than any reference series I've heard. Heresy 1's are totally old school but somehow....still satisfy my ears. Heck...now I'm rambling. Why did I jump in this thread. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Bentz...gave this a little more thought. Are u saying "train your ears" in order to explain what "technically" what you might think is wrong with speakers? I think I get it. Buy how would you explain technically why a system doesn't deliver ""soundstage" or "warmth". Some folks like systems for those reasons...... jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever55 Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 "Train your ears"... That allways gets me...It's like I'll give you the "best " pair of shoes in the world but they will be the wrong size... When you complain my response will be "train your feet" Speakers like a lot of other things are very subjective... If you like what you hear or see then that is the best... Time for my meds.... (pixie dust and 3 fingers of Bulleit) oh and stir... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Bentz...gave this a little more thought. Are u saying "train your ears" in order to explain what "technically" what you might think is wrong with speakers? I think I get it. Buy how would you explain technically why a system doesn't deliver ""soundstage" or "warmth". Some folks like systems for those reasons...... jc Yes, that's exactly what I'm driving at. There are things that we can quantify and then correlate to our own subjective response. Ear training would be the process of isolating each variable in an attempt to learn what it sounds like. That way, when your system doesn't sound the way you want it to, you can knowingly make a change in the intended direction. If your goal is to make your favorite music sound its best, then chances are you're going to have a different "compromise tree" than if you were aiming for the most accurate reproduction of the source material. (Note that accurate reproduction still requires a subjective correlation.) There is a reason PWK was always reminding us to recalibrate our ears to live music... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Actually I do train my ears, it's called experience over time and learning what I like for speakers. Like most audiophiles, it's constantly changing and probably will continue to do so. But this has absolutely nothing to do with the technical specifications of a pair of speakers. You like what you like and technical perfection is not the goal. We all hear differently, which is why there will always be so many different speakers competing out there in the marketplace. If we should recalibrate our ears to live music, then I assume you think the reproduction of live music is the goal. If that's the case, I want to know how time-aligned an orchestra is to the listeners in the audience, or how perfect the technical aspects of the sound of that orchestra is. Where you sit in the audience will greatly affect your perception of the sound quality, but even two people sitting side by side will often have completely different evaluations, just as two people listening to Jubilees can have. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 just curious, in case i missed it, what is the goal of a speaker? take care, roy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 I don't agree with all of Greg's comments (from a listening preference). As I like the jubilee bass bin and I do think it is better than any other bass horns produced by Klipsch. The top section is "different" for sure and I think the K402 horn is "state of the art". Maybe not the driver. Somebody shoot me but I was never really impressed with the Khorn (I'm sure you will dance a jig with that statement) . The bass does nothing for me.....but that is just me. I also like the EV unit to run the jubilee system. Anyway......Greg's comments may be incorrect from a technical standpoint...not sure. But....you like what you like. Whether he is an audiophile or not.....he has a preference and it didn't include the jubilee system. At least he obtained the system before he made negative comments. This might be a first. He could have a different opinion if he had a nice passive and used one of his SET amps....don't know. jc The Jubilee bass bins are the best sounding Klipsch bass bins I've heard. But I've built bass bins that sound even better, so I know there's plenty of room to advance the state of the art in fully horn-loaded loudspeaker design and construction. I've used my SET amps on the K402 /K69 combo and they sounded much better than the Crowns. Actually I spent the most time evaluating the Jubilees with the EV, a crown on the bass bins and my SETs on the horns and as I've said before, it was very nice sounding and I think overall better than Khorns. Then I get into my critiques of the Jubs and what I like about my simple Khorn system which I won't do again here. I said more positive than negative regarding the Jubilees. I just would do things differently if it were up to me. Obviously a lot of people don't like the Khorn, it seems there are more people modifying them than leaving them stock. But they still stick with them all the same. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 just curious, in case i missed it, what is the goal of a speaker? take care, roy I suspect the goal is different for an engineer than for someone like me! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 how about for a musician, songwriter and over all music lover.....uh........someone like me.... take care, roy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 If we should recalibrate our ears to live music, then I assume you think the reproduction of live music is the goal.No. It's just that live music is the only source of music that doesn't have speaker distortions present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 If we should recalibrate our ears to live music, then I assume you think the reproduction of live music is the goal.No. It's just that live music is the only source of music that doesn't have speaker distortions present. Not when the sound is coming out of speakers at a live performance. But even so, live music without the PA, has distortions, coloration, and a whole host of other imperfections that go along with the substance of the music that is very difficult to put into words, and even more difficult to reproduce in our living rooms. Or perhaps we don't really want to reproduce it the way it sounded originally, I mean I've been to plenty of concerts where that is the case. What we are all striving for is something that we like, something that makes us happy with what we are hearing. That is completely subjective and difficult to quantify. It's rarely about the numbers and technical improvements, and more often about building on something that has proven itself in the past, either to you individually, or to the world over a successful long-term run in the marketplace. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 how about for a musician, songwriter and over all music lover.....uh........someone like me.... take care, roy Exactly, I think all of our own experiences shape what we like in a loudspeaker. Again, I don't believe good speaker design is more about being technically correct, I think that is just a starting point. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 But even so, live music without the PA, has distortions, coloration, and a whole host of other imperfections that go along with the substance of the music that is very difficult to put into words, and even more difficult to reproduce in our living rooms. Or perhaps we don't really want to reproduce it the way it sounded originally, I mean I've been to plenty of concerts where that is the case. So are you saying there is no set of live music in the world that one can use to identify whether or not a speaker is being faithful in its reproduction of source material that was intended to sound like the real thing? I am all for the creative liberties of the artists in the studio, but at the same time I would never consider drawing a moustache on the Mona Lisa - even despite the fact that it would dramatically improve my enjoyment of the painting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Again, I don't believe good speaker design is more about being technically correct, I think that is just a starting point. For what it's worth, that statement (as I'm interpreting it) requires a total impass in logic...simply because it is totally ignoring that which defines technical correctness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Actually I spent the most time evaluating the Jubilees with the EV, a crown on the bass bins and my SETs on the horns and as I've said before, it was very nice sounding and I think overall better than Khorns. ooppss. I must have missed where you stated you gave the jubilee system a try with that setup. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 So are you saying there is no set of live music in the world that one can use to identify whether or not a speaker is being faithful in its reproduction of source material that was intended to sound like the real thing? I am all for the creative liberties of the artists in the studio, but at the same time I would never consider drawing a moustache on the Mona Lisa - even despite the fact that it would dramatically improve my enjoyment of the painting. No, what I'm saying is, the whole experience is completely subjective from the start of the live performance to the end of CD. Technical correct speaker design is only a starting point, a point which I believe the industry reached many decades ago. I equate a technical advancement in design to an artful tweak of a known design. Each has their merits, but each is also subjectively evaluated by the listener. A brilliant engineer can come up with a new horn design that plots and tests better by the numbers. The listener who prefers a different and technically inferior design is no more wrong about their assessment than the engineer is right about the technically superior one being better sounding. But in the end, it's the listener that wins out every time because they are the consumer buying the product. I'm also all for drawing a moustache on the Mona Lisa copy one has hanging in their living room, if that's what makes them happy. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 That said, I think some people prefer the sound of highs with exagerated power response...and projecting from higher in the air too. There needs to be a willingness to retrain your ears... I appreciate your technical knowledge, it's impressive. But if I have to retrain my ears to like something that just doesn't sound as good to me, then all that technical knowledge is of no benefit. My reading of this is that one must get used to listening to a new piece of equipment because it is different than what one is used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 If we should recalibrate our ears to live music, then I assume you think the reproduction of live music is the goal.No. It's just that live music is the only source of music that doesn't have speaker distortions present. Not when the sound is coming out of speakers at a live performance. But even so, live music without the PA, has distortions, coloration, and a whole host of other imperfections that go along with the substance of the music that is very difficult to put into words, and even more difficult to reproduce in our living rooms. Or perhaps we don't really want to reproduce it the way it sounded originally, I mean I've been to plenty of concerts where that is the case. What we are all striving for is something that we like, something that makes us happy with what we are hearing. That is completely subjective and difficult to quantify. It's rarely about the numbers and technical improvements, and more often about building on something that has proven itself in the past, either to you individually, or to the world over a successful long-term run in the marketplace. Greg Give me a break guys. If reproduction of the original sound is not the goal then all this is absoultely pointless. That is when you cross the line move into the existential realm of "MY SOUND". It's not "your sound"!! That's for the musicians, the composer, vocalists, wind blowing chimes & leaves rattling, car doors slamming. Real, Live, Sounds. "Live sound", at home, on the street, at work, or in a music concert is NOT amplified!!!!!! (the only possible exception to that are electric instruments which require their own amplification source and which are considered to be part of the "sound" ~ and consequently should also be "reproduced" accurately). You may consider a Pink Floyd or Dianna Krall concert "live", but as far as the sound your are hearing at these kinds of events, it is anything but "live". It's been microphoned, amplified, compressed, EQ'd, mixed, etc, etc. This is not the same thing as having Ms. Krall singing and playing her paino for you in your living room or backyard patio. Those large speaker systems you see hanging from the ceiling at large music concert halls are rarely, if ever used for professional live performances of the acoustic kind. They are there simply for PA purposes ~ announcements and such. Any microphones you may see are almost always there for recording and/or broadcast purposes only, not amplification of the live performance for the attending audience. So what is "accurate" reproduction of the origianl sound? As far as I'm concerned there is only one answer. Can you tell the difference? Did you get fooled? Can you fool at least some of the people some of the time? If your sound reproduction system can do that, that's it, you're there. With todays technology that's as good as we can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever55 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 The Jubilee bass bins are the best sounding Klipsch bass bins I've heard. But I've built bass bins that sound even better, so I know there's plenty of room to advance the state of the art in fully horn-loaded loudspeaker design and construction. I've used my SET amps on the K402 /K69 combo and they sounded much better than the Crowns. Actually I spent the most time evaluating the Jubilees with the EV, a crown on the bass bins and my SETs on the horns and as I've said before, it was very nice sounding and I think overall better than Khorns. Then I get into my critiques of the Jubs and what I like about my simple Khorn system which I won't do again here. I said more positive than negative regarding the Jubilees. I just would do things differently if it were up to me. Obviously a lot of people don't like the Khorn, it seems there are more people modifying them than leaving them stock. But they still stick with them all the same. Greg Greg, What are the power differences between the 2 amps ? I have a MC252 that I could use for the bass and if I wanted to compliment that for the 402's how much power would I need ? I know you can adjust the output of the EV but what would match it so one does not run out of steam before the other ? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 But even so, live music without the PA, has distortions, coloration, and a whole host of other imperfections that go along with the substance of the music that is very difficult to put into words, and even more difficult to reproduce in our living rooms. Or perhaps we don't really want to reproduce it the way it sounded originally, I mean I've been to plenty of concerts where that is the case. So are you saying there is no set of live music in the world that one can use to identify whether or not a speaker is being faithful in its reproduction of source material that was intended to sound like the real thing? I am all for the creative liberties of the artists in the studio, but at the same time I would never consider drawing a moustache on the Mona Lisa - even despite the fact that it would dramatically improve my enjoyment of the painting. buuuuutttt .............................that's the way i like to view her....................with a hairy lip........ take care, roy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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