Jubilee comments/discussion continued.

[edwinr]

I know I have come very late to this discussion, but in this open forum, this is the most informative thread I have read concerning the Jubilees. At one point, as some may know, I was VERY interested in the Jubilee concept. I had the dollars and the desire. Without going over old ground [:#] I went into electrostatics and mega dollar power amps (Mark Levinson and then PassLabs) for a while. But now I'm back to horns with my beautiful Belles and Audio Note Single Ended amplification. You know something? I agree with Greg, there's something special about a very simple system that gets to the very essence of the music.

The complex electronics apparently required to get the best out of Roy's Jubilees is a little off putting to me. I have no doubt that these Jubilees probably sound very impressive in an appropriately sized room, but like the Martin Logans which featured some fairly sophisticated equalisation to get the full range sound, I think the processing might get in the way a little for me. As Roy has suggested 'everyone to their taste'. I just don't think this is the direction PWK would have taken - but I have been known to be wrong []

Anyhow, getting on to my point, I agree that if Klipsch are taking this Jubilee thing seriously, these things should be marketed and promoted properly. I don't think Klipsch are doing themselves any favors by selling the Jubilees using the white van speaker marketing strategy. For those of you that may take offense at that comment, Klipsch are my all time favorite speaker company. Nothing would give me more pleasure to see Klipsch market Roy's Jubilees successfully - even if I would probably prefer Klipschorns for my own listening room...

[colterphoto1]

I appreciate all of the comments here. This comes from a fan who was an employee.

Many of us without extraordinarly deep pockets appreciate the current strategy of selling commercial product for use in the home. Remember the LaScala?- it was a theater and PA speaker. Rarely was one sold in hardwood veneer, only slightly more were stained at the factory. It's an 'everyman' approach that works for us Klipsch fans. Decorator Cornwalls, Heresies, and Klipschorns were in the same league. I have a 1955 Shorthorn that my great-uncle built from a kit while he was a poor kid at Purdue.

When you consider that many of these have already been sold for 5 or 7 channel arrays, the pricing issue becomes more problematic. Perhaps the 2 channel folk might like a dressier speaker but most of us have grown far beyond the 'look at what big boxes' stage.

To dress the Jubilee for the home and give it the full marketing treatment (and probable retail markup) would most likely double it's price. I think for the most part that the Jubilee fans of today are overjoyed to be given the opportunity to own some of PWK's last and Roy Delgado's finest work. PWK did not consider himself or his loudspeakers to be for the average listener and we do not consider ourselves mainstream buyers.

Michael

[Don Richard]

Different digital processors have different DACs and different software, and consequently sound different. Dolby Lake and Xilica processors are considered to be the state of the art by the professionals who are using them. But the state of the art is changing so fast that there may be a new "king of the mountain" by now.

Just when you think you've got something, something else better comes along.[:^)]

[Coytee]

I bought two of the Crown amplifiers that were recommended and the EV DX138. I went with both so I could try both setups. Currently I've got a AH! Njoe Tjoeb CD source to a Creek OBH-10 passive remote control volume, to the EV to the Crown amps (with DSP off) to the Jubs.

Glad to hear you bought a pair!

Onto the next... (and I'm by NO means, any kind of expert) You're running your signal from your pre to the Dx38 and then on to the Crown (I presume you mean the XTI series?)

Wasn't it ascertained here once that even though the DSP section is turned "off" that the Crown is still using it?

If no, then disregard my comments.

If yes, then isn't your signal going from analog/digital/analog BACK to analog in (on Crown), digital and then analog again??

In other words, aren't you processing the signal twice even though you have the dsp turned off? (I thought someone said that even though it's "off" that it's still going through that process, just not being 'eq'd'??)

If correct, then I'd say drop the Dx from the system & try the crown. Later, use the Dx with your favorite amps and drop the crowns.

That's one thing I like about using the Dx is, you can put any amps you want on it and change them on the fly...only thing you need to keep aware of is their input sensativity so you can adjust for that if needed.

If I misunderstand your signal chain then I beg your pardon.

[]

[Coytee]

I don't intend on putting words into Deneen's mouth. I think this is where I got the thought that you can't get around the DSP section....now the question is... with it "off" are you still converting from A/D/A???

??

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/102784/1037893.aspx#1037893

(quoting Deneen)

"Jim--

I didn't quite understand. Are you saying Chops had amp buzzing using the 511B/Usher woofer with Xti? And when you say "DSP Bypassed" I assume you mean DSP OFF. It can't be bypassed."

[bodcaw boy]

what is it that bothers you the most about the active processing, the peqs or the compensation for the top end? would it bother you if the peqs or compenstion for top end was done passively?

have you ever listened to a system that used 6db slopes for crossovers?

take care,

roy

I'm not sure if there is a difference between a load of active electronics and a load of passive electronics from my point of view. Both seem unecessary to me.

not from where i sit....

Do we not have mid horn designs that are relatively flat in response? Are we not able to combine a relatively flat-response midrange horn with a relatively flat-response tweeter and a simple network that all improves on the Khorn design?

yes you can but the polars are not going to be consistent.

I would be much more interested in a design that included the Jub bass bin, a tractrix midrange horn with a high quality 2" mid driver, a lush sounding tweeter like the Beyma CP-25 and a simple network like the "A" network, but of course made to balance these particular drivers. This is not my expertise, but it just seems to me that compared to the Khorn, this combination would offer higher efficiency, a relatively flat frequency response, a deeper voicing, smoother response through the midrange, and sweeter highs. I could run a speaker like this (and achieve superior sound quality) with the same 2 watts per channel that I'm feeding into my Khorns.

there is alot here. flat freq response as a single goal is not the what you think it would be. in my experience, i have done pretty flat freq responses that i was proud of but it didn't sound good (this was with horns and back some 20 years ago). that is when i began to learn that there is more to speakers than a pretty freq response.

In addition, the speakers could have grill cloth covering the bass bin openings, a nice veneer on the fronts, and a good looking cabinet for the top horn section. Then I would actually be allowed to put them in my living room!

wouldn't we all. you get what you get. didn't make up the rules; just play by them.

Isn't the "A" network a 6db slope crossover?

yes it is and i think it would interest you to know that in his later years, paul was playing with steep slope networks......

Greg

take care,

roy

[Don Richard]

I don't intend on putting words into Deneen's mouth. I think this is where I got the thought that you can't get around the DSP section....now the question is... with it "off" are you still converting from A/D/A???

??

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/102784/1037893.aspx#1037893

(quoting Deneen)

"Jim--

I didn't quite understand. Are you saying Chops had amp buzzing using the 511B/Usher woofer with Xti? And when you say "DSP Bypassed" I assume you mean DSP OFF. It can't be bypassed."

All DSP on the XTi series can be turned off, but the signal still goes thru the A/D/A conversion process.

[Coytee]

All DSP on the XTi series can be turned off, but the signal still goes thru the A/D/A conversion process

Ahh... so if he's routing from his Dx38 into his XTi, then he's in fact going through two evolutions of A/D/A, correct?

Gregg.... do I interpret your signal chain properly? Again, if not, disregard but if so then don't throw the bath water out just yet....

[kfoss99]

Since I was mentioned, I'll toss in my two cents about the Jubilees. This is what I have to compare them to: My own RF-82, and Greg's MCM, custom LaScallas, Heresies, and my buddy's KLFspeakers. So, my Klipsch knowledge is intermediate. Take that for what it is. The common source for most of my listening is Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms, heard on all but the KLF speakers.

The Jubilees sound impressive, we sat too close to them, maybe 8 to 10 feet away. But they will blow you away, like the old memorex ad, with the guy sitting in his chair. It wouldn't take much to blow your ear drums out listening to them. You can impress a lot of college freshmen with these. But, for multiple reasons, including a grounding problem, they didn't sound great.

Greg's custom LaScallas were crystal clear and hard hitting, simply the best speaker I've ever heard, but probably five times more expensive than the Jubilees. The Jubilees didn't hit as hard and sounded a bit muffled/grainy. But, again that is an unfair comparison. Comparing them to the RF-82, Heresies, and KLF is not an equal comparison in any way, but it seems the separate tweeter and squaker in the Heresy makes that speaker a little bit more clear than the Jubilee.

The height of the high-end horn is nice and high, it is large enough that it is at ear level, pretty much, if you are standing or sitting.

They are big,ugly, and look cheap. That's not a problem if you have the space and are single. But, not having heard K-Horns, I don't know if they sound so much better to make the aesthetic differences worth while. If the K-Horn sounds 90% as good, why would Klipsch make the Jubilee available for the home market? It really seems to be a less practicle loudspeaker.

As I found for most speakers, the room and proper settings make the speaker. So in a different setting the Jubilees may be great. But, I didn't hear it.

[Islander]

Greg, both you and your friend have described the Jubilees as sounding "grainy". I have not yet heard Jubilees for myself, but whenever I've seen or heard that term, it's been in reference to electronics, usually amps or CD players, never speakers. As well, the Crown XTi1000 amps have had mixed reviews. Some are very happy with them, others not so much. Your amplification may be holding back your speakers.

Tennessee Mike's setup would appear to deal with some of the issues that are bothering you. It's just a pity that it would be such a long trip for you to hear it.

My personal experience is with La Scalas that were first upgraded with CT125 tweeters and updated with Sonicaps, then, over a year later, converted to JubScalas with the Dx38 and a pair of Yamaha MX-D1 power amps. The JubScalas are an improvement in every way, with no negatives I've been able to notice. Even at low volume levels, very revealing detail is shown clearly. A couple of weeks ago, I had some stands fabricated for the 510 tweeters that allowed low-level vocals to to be even more clear, but I don't have the photos of them scanned just yet.

As an analogue fan, I was a little dubious about sending my LP signals through a digital processor (the Dx), but hearing is believing. The sound is improved, the LS bass bins sound better than ever, and the time-alignment makes an audible difference.

Also, I was a little surprised about your comments on the appearance of the Jubilees, after seeing the masterwork quality of the speaker projects you've done. I figured you'd see them as an interesting challenge to beautify. Are you waiting for the warranty to expire before you take any tools to them?

[colterphoto1]

Roy - "yes it is and i think it would interest you to know that in his later years, paul was playing with steep slope networks...... "

and the throngs let a collective "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo "

I did not know that. Very good tidbit, thanks Roy!

yer buddy,

Michael

[colterphoto1]

Pat, thanks on your thoughts on entering the digital domain by a dyed-in-the-wool analogue guy.

Got patches for your Scala LF sections? (what PEQ are you using?)

[Coytee]

but it seems the separate tweeter and squaker in the Heresy makes that speaker a little bit more clear than the Jubilee

I've got to think something wasn't 100% right if you came to that conclusion.???

I've not read the next page yet but anyone have any thoughts on the possilbity of going through two A/D/A conversions??

[mikebse2a3]

The Jubilees sound impressive, we sat too close to them, maybe 8 to 10 feet away. But they will blow you away, like the old memorex ad, with the guy sitting in his chair. It wouldn't take much to blow your ear drums out listening to them. You can impress a lot of college freshmen with these. But, for multiple reasons, including a grounding problem, they didn't sound great.

Interesting post kfoss99

My experience with the Jubilee is the same as when I used Khorns anytime I felt the need to keep cranking a system searching for clarity and other things it was always an indicater that something wasn't working about the system or system/room combination. I'm not saying somethings wrong with Gregs setup just that thats been a very consistant measure for me of when I've got things optimized with my systems.

Again I'm not trying to say anyone doesn't hear what they hear but instead I'm trying to relate my experience t see if we can understand why such a different sound from the Jubilee versus the several different room and systems I've heard them in. I can tell you what I value in my system is the very things that you and Greg seem to be missing and that is the ability to play at very low to realistic levels while maintaining the clarity, tonality and musicality for lack of a better word so I hate to see Greg and others come away thinking that this ability isn't in them.

I do understand if Greg just isn't happy or feels like the design just doesn't fit what he has decided is right for him and in that case I say move on if he feels that he would rather go in another direction.

I do want to also add that if the grounding Hum in the system was that bad then I myself wouldn't make to certain a judgment until the problem was solved. These problems do frustrate people but they can and should be solved so that the system works properly.

As I found for most speakers, the room and proper settings make the speaker. So in a different setting the Jubilees may be great. But, I didn't hear it.

Totally Agree!

At the Indy 07 pilgrimage the Jubilee setup was severly compromised and most people just got a little indication of what is truely possible with the Jub so like you said this can happen to any speaker!

mike tn

[Coytee]

But, for multiple reasons, including a grounding problem, they didn't sound great.

I don't know your setup & parts but I had a confounded hum I could NOT get rid of until I put a Art Cleanbox in between my preamp (Peach) and the Dx38 to convert from RCA to XLR.

Using the Cleanbox = no hum

Taking Cleanbox out = some low level hum

I've tried various ways to rid the hum but as of now, this is the only way that actually works for me. I'm thinking if I do anything else to try to get the Cleanbox out of the system, I'll simply get a preamp that has XLR outputs.

[whatever55]

Very Interesting....

I have a pair of Jubilees with a passive network Roy's design. Powered by an MC252. They sound good.... they have to after the trouble I went through to get them. I can only compare them to a pair of Bells that have Al's mid range horn and Beymas tweeters, I tried Al's extreme slope networks but they seemed to take away as much as the other two mods gave. ( He took them back with no problem after spending alot of time with me checking ny setup.

To be honest as of today if I had heard them side by side I think I would have kept the Belles. The difference does not seem to be worht the money. I just might try active networks... Behringer DCX 2496 seems to do what is needed. I asked someone here if this would work and the answer I got was "it will if it does what it has to do" ??? Clear as mud.

I know I will get a lot of flack but that is what I hear.

Funny how the Belles are 3 way and not much talk of them needing "time alignment" like the Jubilees. And as far as extreme slope ... tried it and did not like it. I was told..." you must play you music on the quiet side"

Enough... I feel much better now.....Let the shooting begin.

[greg928gts]

I appreciate all of the comments here. This comes from a fan who was an employee.

Many of us without extraordinarly deep pockets appreciate the current strategy of selling commercial product for use in the home. Remember the LaScala?- it was a theater and PA speaker. Rarely was one sold in hardwood veneer, only slightly more were stained at the factory. It's an 'everyman' approach that works for us Klipsch fans. Decorator Cornwalls, Heresies, and Klipschorns were in the same league. I have a 1955 Shorthorn that my great-uncle built from a kit while he was a poor kid at Purdue.

When you consider that many of these have already been sold for 5 or 7 channel arrays, the pricing issue becomes more problematic. Perhaps the 2 channel folk might like a dressier speaker but most of us have grown far beyond the 'look at what big boxes' stage.

To dress the Jubilee for the home and give it the full marketing treatment (and probable retail markup) would most likely double it's price. I think for the most part that the Jubilee fans of today are overjoyed to be given the opportunity to own some of PWK's last and Roy Delgado's finest work. PWK did not consider himself or his loudspeakers to be for the average listener and we do not consider ourselves mainstream buyers.

Michael

Michael, per your previous post, I don't think it matters what level you're on, I think we all have something to contribute here. But I do think you know at least as much as I do about these subjects, and probably more.

I can appreciate what you're saying about Klipsch selling dressed-down speakers to enthusiasts. Maybe that's as good as it gets with the Jubilee. But I can't put them in my living room!!! What good is that?

Some of us are sitting here on the sidelines wondering what the heck is going on with the development of Klipsch's high end speakers? I'm sure the Palladium is an awesome speaker, but where is the same commitment to the Jubilee? And why the heck not?!! The Jubilee is fundamentally tied to the history of Klipsch in a much more profound way than the Palladium. Can't Klipsch do both with same gusto?

Greg

[greg928gts]

I bought two of the Crown amplifiers that were recommended and the EV DX138. I went with both so I could try both setups. Currently I've got a AH! Njoe Tjoeb CD source to a Creek OBH-10 passive remote control volume, to the EV to the Crown amps (with DSP off) to the Jubs.

Glad to hear you bought a pair!

Onto the next... (and I'm by NO means, any kind of expert) You're running your signal from your pre to the Dx38 and then on to the Crown (I presume you mean the XTI series?)

Wasn't it ascertained here once that even though the DSP section is turned "off" that the Crown is still using it?

If no, then disregard my comments.

If yes, then isn't your signal going from analog/digital/analog BACK to analog in (on Crown), digital and then analog again??

In other words, aren't you processing the signal twice even though you have the dsp turned off? (I thought someone said that even though it's "off" that it's still going through that process, just not being 'eq'd'??)

If correct, then I'd say drop the Dx from the system & try the crown. Later, use the Dx with your favorite amps and drop the crowns.

That's one thing I like about using the Dx is, you can put any amps you want on it and change them on the fly...only thing you need to keep aware of is their input sensativity so you can adjust for that if needed.

If I misunderstand your signal chain then I beg your pardon.

Yes, that's a possibility. If so, it's just one more reason to steer clear of the Crown Xti amps.

I have used the DX38 with tube amps and everything sounded much better. BTW, very easy to integrate the DX38 with other amps, there is so much control on input gain and output in the DSP. Worked like a charm, much to my surprise. My SET amps are about as far a stretch away from the Crown XTi as you can imagine, and yet there they were, working together in the system like they were exactly the same topology.

I think the Crowns are going to the MCM system. One on each pair of MWM's! That should do.

Greg

[Marvel]

Some of us are sitting here on the sidelines wondering what the heck is going on with the development of Klipsch's high end speakers? I'm sure the Palladium is an awesome speaker, but where is the same commitment to the Jubilee? And why the heck not?!! The Jubilee is fundamentally tied to the history of Klipsch in a much more profound way than the Palladium. Can't Klipsch do both with same gusto?

We are only thinking of the Jubilee in a home setting. It would be interesting to know how many are going into theaters.

Funny
how the Belles are 3 way and not much talk of them needing "time
alignment" like the Jubilees. And as far as extreme slope ... tried it
and did not like it. I was told..." you must play you music on the
quiet side"

Enough... I feel much better now.....Let the shooting begin.

Not gonna shoot at all. I think the Belles would benefit with time alignment on them.

So... how loud do you play your music? I am using a 6db slope on the woofer to mid and 12db between the mid and tweeter. I'm using 2A3 amps, and had certain folks I trust tell me they didn't think Al's extreme slops networks opened up until you put some power to them. I'm happy with my LS, although I can think of some things I would like to try, still.

Bruce

[greg928gts]

Since I was mentioned, I'll toss in my two cents about the Jubilees. This is what I have to compare them to: My own RF-82, and Greg's MCM, custom LaScallas, Heresies, and my buddy's KLFspeakers. So, my Klipsch knowledge is intermediate. Take that for what it is. The common source for most of my listening is Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms, heard on all but the KLF speakers.

The Jubilees sound impressive, we sat too close to them, maybe 8 to 10 feet away. But they will blow you away, like the old memorex ad, with the guy sitting in his chair. It wouldn't take much to blow your ear drums out listening to them. You can impress a lot of college freshmen with these. But, for multiple reasons, including a grounding problem, they didn't sound great.

Greg's custom LaScallas were crystal clear and hard hitting, simply the best speaker I've ever heard, but probably five times more expensive than the Jubilees. The Jubilees didn't hit as hard and sounded a bit muffled/grainy. But, again that is an unfair comparison. Comparing them to the RF-82, Heresies, and KLF is not an equal comparison in any way, but it seems the separate tweeter and squaker in the Heresy makes that speaker a little bit more clear than the Jubilee.

The height of the high-end horn is nice and high, it is large enough that it is at ear level, pretty much, if you are standing or sitting.

They are big,ugly, and look cheap. That's not a problem if you have the space and are single. But, not having heard K-Horns, I don't know if they sound so much better to make the aesthetic differences worth while. If the K-Horn sounds 90% as good, why would Klipsch make the Jubilee available for the home market? It really seems to be a less practicle loudspeaker.

As I found for most speakers, the room and proper settings make the speaker. So in a different setting the Jubilees may be great. But, I didn't hear it.

It's true, I really hit on an unusual combination of things with those La Scalas in that room (same room the Jubs are in right now) I perhaps will never be able to do that again, it was fateful. Just one of those things where everything comes together just right. I couldn't believe it either. Karl, you have to believe me, La Scalas are not supposed to make low notes like that! It was an anomaly. But a nice one! Those were the Rosewood La Scalas that I sold for about $4,500. The Jubs cost $6,600.

Karl, I think you'd find that the Jubilees sound much better in a bigger room. When I had them in my living room they sounded a lot better than what you heard the other night, even with the Crown amps. I won't get the chance to let you hear them in my living room though, unfortunately they had their brief time "uglying up our house" as my wife puts it, and they are banished.

Also, the Jubs sound much better with better amplifiers.

My Khorns are in the restoration stage right now, so we'll have wait a bit before I get them back into my living room. But when I do, you'll be the first I call to come listen to them.

Greg