Jubilee comments/discussion continued.

[greg928gts]

Greg, both you and your friend have described the Jubilees as sounding "grainy". I have not yet heard Jubilees for myself, but whenever I've seen or heard that term, it's been in reference to electronics, usually amps or CD players, never speakers. As well, the Crown XTi1000 amps have had mixed reviews. Some are very happy with them, others not so much. Your amplification may be holding back your speakers.

Tennessee Mike's setup would appear to deal with some of the issues that are bothering you. It's just a pity that it would be such a long trip for you to hear it.

My personal experience is with La Scalas that were first upgraded with CT125 tweeters and updated with Sonicaps, then, over a year later, converted to JubScalas with the Dx38 and a pair of Yamaha MX-D1 power amps. The JubScalas are an improvement in every way, with no negatives I've been able to notice. Even at low volume levels, very revealing detail is shown clearly. A couple of weeks ago, I had some stands fabricated for the 510 tweeters that allowed low-level vocals to to be even more clear, but I don't have the photos of them scanned just yet.

As an analogue fan, I was a little dubious about sending my LP signals through a digital processor (the Dx), but hearing is believing. The sound is improved, the LS bass bins sound better than ever, and the time-alignment makes an audible difference.

Also, I was a little surprised about your comments on the appearance of the Jubilees, after seeing the masterwork quality of the speaker projects you've done. I figured you'd see them as an interesting challenge to beautify. Are you waiting for the warranty to expire before you take any tools to them?

I believe you are correct, a lot of the graininess is probably from the Crown amps. I have done the same thing that Mike did and it did make a noticeable improvement. But I have also noticed that the K69 is grainy sounding when you get right up close to it. It's actually quite interesting to hear the horn smooth out the sound as you back away. Actually the first time I've ever experienced this; that is hearing a driver, then hearing the driver with the horn actually changing the sound. Very interesting.

I stopped by the shop today and listened to the Jubs for about a half hour. All kinds of little issues had me shaking my head. The way I have them set up right now is not good. They need a bigger room and they need higher quality amplfication.

I've had a lot of projects going lately, so I just haven't had time to do anything to the Jubs. I have a couple of ideas for the mid horns, but no matter what, they will still be BIG. I think I could make them acceptable for my WA.

The bigger thing though, is that I am going to go in a different direction than the Jubs, so I see no reason to put a lot of time and money into them.

Greg

[greg928gts]

but it seems the separate tweeter and squaker in the Heresy makes that speaker a little bit more clear than the Jubilee

I've got to think something wasn't 100% right if you came to that conclusion.???

I've not read the next page yet but anyone have any thoughts on the possilbity of going through two A/D/A conversions??

I think what Karl meant was that the high frequencies were not coming through as well as they do with a three-way setup with a separate tweeter. I notice this too, whether using the Crown amps or other amps. In my case, this is just a preference for having a separate tweeter.

Greg

[greg928gts]

The Jubilees sound impressive, we sat too close to them, maybe 8 to 10 feet away. But they will blow you away, like the old memorex ad, with the guy sitting in his chair. It wouldn't take much to blow your ear drums out listening to them. You can impress a lot of college freshmen with these. But, for multiple reasons, including a grounding problem, they didn't sound great.

Interesting post kfoss99

My experience with the Jubilee is the same as when I used Khorns anytime I felt the need to keep cranking a system searching for clarity and other things it was always an indicater that something wasn't working about the system or system/room combination. I'm not saying somethings wrong with Gregs setup just that thats been a very consistant measure for me of when I've got things optimized with my systems.

Again I'm not trying to say anyone doesn't hear what they hear but instead I'm trying to relate my experience t see if we can understand why such a different sound from the Jubilee versus the several different room and systems I've heard them in. I can tell you what I value in my system is the very things that you and Greg seem to be missing and that is the ability to play at very low to realistic levels while maintaining the clarity, tonality and musicality for lack of a better word so I hate to see Greg and others come away thinking that this ability isn't in them.

I do understand if Greg just isn't happy or feels like the design just doesn't fit what he has decided is right for him and in that case I say move on if he feels that he would rather go in another direction.

I do want to also add that if the grounding Hum in the system was that bad then I myself wouldn't make to certain a judgment until the problem was solved. These problems do frustrate people but they can and should be solved so that the system works properly.

As I found for most speakers, the room and proper settings make the speaker. So in a different setting the Jubilees may be great. But, I didn't hear it.

Totally Agree!

At the Indy 07 pilgrimage the Jubilee setup was severly compromised and most people just got a little indication of what is truely possible with the Jub so like you said this can happen to any speaker!

mike tn

Mike, I totally agree with your statement about when you find yourself turning up the volume that is usually an indicator of a problem. LOL, if it doesn't sound quite right, or it's not impressing the person you are demostrating it to, turn it up louder!

As I stated before, I think there are a few problems with the way I have the Jubs set up. It's too bad that Karl had to hear them that way. It's one of those things where I put the system together to do some casual listening, but I knew the shortcomings of the way I set them up and I was willing to overlook them. I wasn't setting it up the system to really show them off in the best light. I had no system in that room and I had Jubilees sitting in the storage room!!!!! So I threw it together one night.

In my living room I had no problems at all with grounding issues. Except for the different CD source, it was exactly the same setup, so I don't get why I had so much noise at my shop. By the time Karl heard the system, I had most of the noise under control. I guess it was a lot of noise for him, but to me it's not too bad. Long term it would not be acceptable, but for quickly throwing the system together to do some casual listening, yeah whatever. It is odd though. I'm sure it has to do with balanced and unbalanced components being wired together. It reminds me of my PA days. Actually the whole system reminds me of my PA days.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Some of us are sitting here on the sidelines wondering what the heck is going on with the development of Klipsch's high end speakers? I'm sure the Palladium is an awesome speaker, but where is the same commitment to the Jubilee? And why the heck not?!! The Jubilee is fundamentally tied to the history of Klipsch in a much more profound way than the Palladium. Can't Klipsch do both with same gusto?

We are only thinking of the Jubilee in a home setting. It would be interesting to know how many are going into theaters.

Funny how the Belles are 3 way and not much talk of them needing "time alignment" like the Jubilees. And as far as extreme slope ... tried it and did not like it. I was told..." you must play you music on the quiet side"

Enough... I feel much better now.....Let the shooting begin.

Not gonna shoot at all. I think the Belles would benefit with time alignment on them.

So... how loud do you play your music? I am using a 6db slope on the woofer to mid and 12db between the mid and tweeter. I'm using 2A3 amps, and had certain folks I trust tell me they didn't think Al's extreme slops networks opened up until you put some power to them. I'm happy with my LS, although I can think of some things I would like to try, still.

Bruce

I want to rephrase:

Some of us are sitting here on the sidelines wondering what the heck is going on with the development of Klipsch's high end speakers? I'm sure the Palladium is an awesome speaker, but where is the same commitment to the fully horn-loaded loudspeaker? And why the heck not?!! The fully horn-loaded loudspeaker is fundamentally tied to the history of Klipsch in a much more profound way than the Palladium. Can't Klipsch do both with same gusto?

I don't know why the heck I care so much.

Greg

[Deang]

Greg, you have a PM.

[edwinr]

Aesthetics are such an important part of any loudspeaker purchase. When I told me wife I was selling my Martin Logans to buy Klipsch again, she hit the roof. As usual I went ahead anyway. When I unpacked the Belles from their shipping containers the very positive coments made by my wife about their looks was reassuring. Everyone, friends and family alike, that have seen the Belles since have made similar positive comments about their appearance. That does wonders for my case when justifying the purchase on my family budget. The fact that these speaker sound awesome too will really help my case for my next upgrade - possibly a new pair of Klipschorns soon. Frankly the appearance of the Jubilees completely rules them out as a contender in my home.

Getting on to the Jubilee sound quality issues raised by some, I have to support Roy here a little [:|] - there is NO speaker in the world that will sound perfect in all rooms - not without some help. It just can't be done without substantial room tweaking. Some may get lucky and buy a speaker and just plonk it in place with little or no tweaking and be happy with the sound. Others like me will want to maximise the sound quality. But if the room doesn't play ball, you will never realise really good sound with passive speakers.

There is another way to do it. That's by using active equalisation. I suppose there is no reason why the Jubilees can't sound good in any decent sized room - I reckon you still need to give the Jubilees room to breath, just like you should with the mighty Klipschorn. All the room glitches and nodes etc should technically be able to be 'tuned out'. So if you can live with the thought of an active crossover network and the associated electronics inserted into your signal chain, this is not a bad way to go.

Now here's my take on Jubilee sound quality issues that some have raised here and in private conversations. If you're going to go the Jubilee route, why would you use Crown amplification? This stuff is good for it's intended purpose (pa and stuff like that) but to drive Jubilees? You're kidding me! I don't care what side of the fence you're sitting on with regards to Jubilees and their current commercial slant, KLIPSCH JUST DON'T MAKE CRAP HORNS! But Klipsch horns will sound like crap if you put crap in. I would imagine the Jubilees will reveal any harshness in amplification and source that may not be apparent in lessor speakers. If I was going down Roy's active equalisation path, I know I would have to firstly budget for the Jub's, then budget a not disimilar amount for the electronics. I'm not talking about high power stuff, just really good stuff. I acknowledge that most who bought Jubilees and are trying to get the best out of them with lower cost amplification are limited by their budgets.

This is the crux of the whole Klipsch sound philosophy thing. PWK designed speakers that would sound really good with relatively low power amplification -for Klipschorns suggesting a minimum of 25 watts per channel [A]. I can now see why despite my previous rants, Klipsch are not promoting the Jubilees in their current form as a mainstream speaker. They are definitely very specialised and don't quite fit into mainstream Klipsch sound philosophy...

[Marvel]

I'm not talking about high power stuff, just really good stuff. I acknowledge that most who bought Jubilees and are trying to get the best out of them with lower cost amplification are limited by their budgets.

I was thinking the Crown that Mark Deneen tweaked would work well. Dean tried that one I think. It would be enough power for me but a far better sound. And the D-45 isn't too expensive, even after Mark's upgrades.

Bruce

[whatever55]

"There is another way to do it. That's by using active equalisation. I suppose there is no reason why the Jubilees can't sound good in any decent sized room - I reckon you still need to give the Jubilees room to breath, just like you should with the mighty Klipschorn. All the room glitches and nodes etc should technically be able to be 'tuned out'. So if you can live with the thought of an active crossover network and the associated electronics inserted into your signal chain, this is not a bad way to go."

Could you use a Behringer DEQ 2496 (the RTA part) to accomplish this ??

Also would the Behringer DCX 2496 work in place of the EV ?

[colterphoto1]

You really need a unit with at least 24 db/octave crossover slope, preferably 48 db/octave. Chief engineer Roy Delgado has worked out PEQ curves for the most popular Jubilee setups. All of these utilize some HF shelving type compensation (similar to CD horn eq), and several bands of eq in both the HF and LF sections.

I'm going to do a setup using the DBX DriveRack PA unit that has only 3 bands of PEQ per section. My initial amp setup with by Crown D150II and D75A (because that's what I have). That a whopping 75 watts into the bass bin and 30 into the high horn. WIll post results here.

[PrestonTom]

The goal is not to use EQ to "compensate" for room nodes and anomalies. A little bit of EQ (knocking down a peak is okay, but not a perfect solution - it's a long story, Floyd Toole on the Harman site has a good discussion on this). EQ really does not "compensate for a room.

Re: Behringer equipment.

Behringer DCX is their electronic crossover with a bit of EQ also. It is certainly affordable (about $300) and its sound is okay and it reliability is questionable. However, at that price .... It can be made better if you avoid the ADC in the unit (take a digital out from the CD player) and can be further improved by substituting transformer(s) for the output section (no need to go crazy with ultra high-priced transformers, remember it is a $300 unit). With that mod it will probably be better than most DACS that folks use anyway.

The DCX will provide 24 and 48 dB/octave filters: 2 ch in and 6 ch out. You will need to figure out a multi-channel volume control however (I use a couple of stereo pots that are ganged together)

The DEQ is their EQ machine and has the same caveats and possible improvements as the DCX. It will provide multiple graphic, PEQ, etc functions

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Edgar]

There is another way to do it.  That's by using active equalisation.  I suppose there is no reason why the Jubilees can't sound good in any decent sized room - I reckon you still need to give the Jubilees room to breath, just like you should with the mighty Klipschorn.  All the room glitches and nodes etc should technically be able to be 'tuned out'.  So if you can live with the thought of an active crossover network and the associated electronics inserted into your signal chain, this is not a bad way to go.

I'm in general agreement, but I do have a couple of comments:

First, the Jubilee is a BIG loudspeaker. Putting a BIG speaker into a small room can cause problems that EQ might not be able to solve. Many of the comments I've read in this thread about how the K402 sounds look to me like they can be explained by the fact that the listener was in the near field of the horn. Move away from the horn, into its far field, and all will be well. Room is not large enough to do that? Then the room is too small for the speaker.

Second, if you're going to use an active crossover, BUY THE BEST THAT YOU CAN AFFORD. People think nothing of spending thousands of dollars on a preamp, then cheap-out on an active crossover. The crossover's job is MUCH harder than the preamp's job! Don't skimp here! Some of the modern pro audio digital speaker processers are simply outstanding, but you have to pay the price.

Greg

[colterphoto1]

Good points on the room size. If a room will support proper imaging and distance with a Khorn, it should work for a Jubilee, despite the enormity of the horn.

I'm of the thought that some modest eq for room anomalies can help, but all rooom conditions can't be eq'd out. Reason- listener (mic) position is everything. You eq for one particular spot, move 6 inches, it's different.

I look forward to getting my Jubilees in place and with the designer-prescribed eq, then judisciously tweaking the eq to account for some room conditions by using Doc's measuring rig and listening tests.

[Coytee]

Second, if you're going to use an active crossover, BUY THE BEST THAT YOU CAN AFFORD. People think nothing of spending thousands of dollars on a preamp, then cheap-out on an active crossover. The crossover's job is MUCH harder than the preamp's job! Don't skimp here! Some of the modern pro audio digital speaker processers are simply outstanding, but you have to pay the price.

I think that's an excellent point

[whatever55]

My current setup uses the passive network built from Roy's plans... any thoughts on improving that ????

[Deang]

Aren't those the ones I built? Want me to send some Pixie dust?

What value resistor are you using for attenuation, or are you?

[Marvel]

Dean,

Are you using passives with your system now?

Bruce

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Anyone looking for an outstanding professional dividing network, I will let my Yamaha D2040 go for $500. Professional 2 in 8 out, dividing network, time delay, parametric eq, DAC, etc. It also has volume control, analog and digital in and doubles as a preamp. List was $4000 and they sold for $3000 online.

http://www.usersmanualguide.com/yamaha_audio/signal_processors_(dsps)/d2040

[DrWho]

The Jubilees didn't hit as hard and sounded a bit muffled/grainy.

As would be kinda expected when ground loops are at play...

[DrWho]

Also would the Behringer DCX 2496 work in place of the EV ?

I've seen you ask this without a proper reply a few times, so when I get internet set up at my new place I will check this out for ya. If you want to do some of your own homework, then check to make sure the DCX can do stereo 2-way with about 7 filters per channel. If there is a master section, then you only need about 4 on the master and 4 per channel. I am pretty certain that it can do what you need it to do, but I can't make that recommendation until double checking for sure.

Btw, if you used the DCX, then you will really want to use the digital input straight from your CD player. Volume control would get annoying (since you'd need to control 4 channels at once), but that can be remedied for rather cheap.

I mention the digital input, because if you're interested in the most minamalist approach possible, then keeping the signal digital all the way through the xover is absolutely the best way to go....because then, you're not adding any extra stages to any signal path. Everything has one D/A, which is fed directly to an amplifier.

I would be willing to wager good money that any issues people have been having with the active xovers so far are because they don't know how to maximize the SNR through the unit. If you're running at 16-Bit and only have the input peaking at around -20dB, then all of a sudden your noise floor becomes -76dB...throw in some coupled noise from signal interfaces and you're looking at -66dB to -56dB...all of that noise gets mangled into the digital world and ends up being totally unrelated to the music - in other words, it should sound very nasty.

Low gain (not necessarily low power) amplifiers coupled to an active xover fed with digital inputs is totally the way to go. I wouldn't pass judement on the Jubs until hearing them set up this way (though I don't know of anyone that has heard them in this configuration yet...)

[whatever55]

Another thought...... older speakers like various Altecs model 19 VOT etc are 2 way with a very simple network and sound good. I looked on sites for these speakers and read very little on exotic networks. Why is that ? Do they need them ?