Colter's Shop of Klipsch

[greg928gts]

Michael, does your state offer any kind of rebates for energy efficient lighting installations?

The generous taxpayers of the great state of Maine helped to buy the lighting in my shop. Pretty nice huh?

Greg

[fini]

Greg,

I'm gonna email you about an insulation question, since you live where it gets cold, and you are freaking awesome...

[colterphoto1]

I'm told we're most of the way through the permit process but no drainage permit yet. They're being very strict with this due to the legal and zoning issues with my property.

My cousin who was my realtor should be strung up. And they wonder why I don't attend family functions anymore?

On the radiant floor thing, you have to do the entire slab. It would not be effective to heat one half (workshop side) as the other portion of the slab would then be a giant heat sink. Even a thermal break won't do it. I may nix the idea, I probably won't be out there that often, a wood stove or other source would get the chill off the air and make it usable. I'll corridon off a small area for electronics lab for storage and work on small projects in the winter. Besides I probably can't afford to heat the place anyway. [sigh]

[gaspr]

At least consider placing the tubing in the slab when you pour...might never use them but...you won't be kickin yourself sometime in the future.

[greg928gts]

At least consider placing the tubing in the slab when you pour...might never use them but...you won't be kickin yourself sometime in the future.

I agree.

A thermal break will definately work from one part of the slab to another, it's better than the thermal break to the outside because the temperature will at least be tempered in the unheated section of the building.

This whole idea of turning up the heat or stoking a woodstove when you go out there to work will get old very quickly. I urge you to set things up so when you have the money later, it will be relatively easy to just heat it. I thought I could keep the temp down in my shop and boost it up when I got there to work. Ha! That lasted about one week. I settled on a temperature that I could live with all the time while wearing a lightweight vest.

Greg

[gaspr]

Greg...could you tell us more about your radiant floor heat system in your shop? Is it a closed or open system? What temp to you keep it at and how is the temp controlled...slab sensor or wall stat? Boiler reset control?? Love the pics on your website BTW...exellent workmanship as usual.

Thanks

Garth

[greg928gts]

Greg...could you tell us more about your radiant floor heat system in your shop? Is it a closed or open system? What temp to you keep it at and how is the temp controlled...slab sensor or wall stat? Boiler reset control?? Love the pics on your website BTW...exellent workmanship as usual.

Thanks

Garth

Sure. My shop system is different than what I normally do in the homes I build. I simplified to keep costs down. In the shop I'm using Uponor (Wirsbo) PEX tubing, 1/2", in 300' coils. I'm using a Heat Transfer Products Munchkin L.P. Gas fired boiler, 95% eff, sealed combustion, condensing, vents with 2" PVC. I've got high temp zones for Modine heaters and a custom in-wall heater that are running with circulators, and three zones of radiant that run with zone valves. Nothing too fancy on the mixing, just a bypass on the return loop (manual bal valve) and a regular mixing valve. Boiler temp is 160 max and the radiant mixes to about 110 at the most. I'm just using regular T-stats for all the zones. Domestic is on it's own zone with a Super-Stor tank.

I've been installing radiant floor heating in slab foundations since I began my business back in 1988. Back then there were still people who laughed at the idea of hydronic floor heat. I had to buy my tubing directly from the manufacturer, the wholesale supply houses didn't even know what it was. In my homes I always used Tekmar averaging reset controllers and typically a single zone for the whole house. I kept the radiant loop running constant all heating season and then used the controller to cycle heated water through a flat-plate heat exchanger. This way I could keep the radiant loop separate from the boiler and very few components in the line. The idea was to design a system that would not have the risk of having over-heated water from the boiler accidentally go through it, to be able to treat the water with corrosion proofers or other inhibitors, to maintain a very constant temperature within the loop, to limit the possibility of oxygen related corrosion within the loop, to be able to use the radiant loop with a variety of different warm water sources (like solar or a simple water heater), and to provide the maximum comfort inside the home. The Tekmar controls used outside-reset to determine how often to cycle the heated water into the exchanger. It was a brilliantly simple and brutally effective system. Then two years ago Tekmar stopped making these controls!!! I immediately bought every one I could get my hands on, but I'm all out now.

The controls that are on the market now are either VERY expensive and unnecessarily complicated, or they are somewhat cost-effective but not really capable of providing the superior system that I'm used to. I'm very disappointed right now with the way we are installing and operating our radiant floors. They work fine with the new T-stats that are available, that "exercise" the system, but it's not the same. In a super-insulated home (12" exterior walls, 36" of cellulose in the attic, airtight, etc...) the amount of heat needed is so minimal that it becomes difficult to control 150,000 pounds of "heated" concrete all isolated to the inside of the home. With regular T-stats, the system shuts down for hours and then takes hours to bring the temp of the floor back up. A far cry from how our old systems work.

Sorry, I probably rambled on with a lot more than you asked for.

Greg

[colterphoto1]

Ok, let me ask this. I'm going to be at 32 x 48 floor space. I'd like to run the PEX now and hook up later. I'll only have electrical at the shop, but could possibly add wood burning, solar?, or geothermal (does it pay?) later. Probably something simple like a hot water heater for source- can it be done this simply?

In my climate with 8" batts in ceiling and 6" in 2x6 walls, 5" floor with 2" blueboard under and around foundation walls, would it be possible for radiant heat to provide some degree of comfort without bankrupting me?

Yes I realize this is a gross simplification but I'm looking for a go-no go answer. Otherwise it's probably an electric heater for my work zone and/or wood stove for general heat. I really don't plan on doing much work from Nov-Feb, but would like to keep it from freezing entirely in the space.

Thanks,

Michael

[greg928gts]

Ok, let me ask this. I'm going to be at 32 x 48 floor space. I'd like to run the PEX now and hook up later. I'll only have electrical at the shop, but could possibly add wood burning, solar?, or geothermal (does it pay?) later. Probably something simple like a hot water heater for source- can it be done this simply?

In my climate with 8" batts in ceiling and 6" in 2x6 walls, 5" floor with 2" blueboard under and around foundation walls, would it be possible for radiant heat to provide some degree of comfort without bankrupting me?

Yes I realize this is a gross simplification but I'm looking for a go-no go answer. Otherwise it's probably an electric heater for my work zone and/or wood stove for general heat. I really don't plan on doing much work from Nov-Feb, but would like to keep it from freezing entirely in the space.

Thanks,

Michael

32 x 48 would take about 1800 lineal ft. of 1/2" PEX tubing at a cost of about $1200 for Uponor and less for Watts/Radiant. A water heater could be integrated to the tubing pretty easily. In our area electricity is too expensive so I would use L.P. Gas.

I do have to say that I think there are some "losses" associated with heating large masses of concrete that are hard to figure. I've had this argument with heating contractors for years. Radiant floor heating is often sold as more efficient because of the low water temperatures, but I question if the actual heat loss through an insulated slab is accurately calculated. My gut tells me that hydronic baseboard or hot air heat would end up being more efficient. Not as comfortable, quiet, clean, and unobtrusive, but probably a little more efficient just from not having to heat 150,000 pounds of concrete to 80 degrees all winter.

A radiant floor is not the type of system that you can turn on and off on a daily basis. It takes a day or two to heat it up! So you will use more energy with the radiant floor than you will using a wood stove or other space heat because you'll end up leaving it on all the time so the shop is warm enough for you to work immediately when you enter it.

I did say in a past post that I think you're going to find that using a wood stove or other type of space heater will still take a long time to heat up and I think that will get old quick. I understand the financial pressure, but to make your shop useful to you in the winter, I think you're really going to want to commit to some kind of consistent heat, so when you go out there to work, you can do so without having to wait an hour for the temp to come up.

I'm a little confused, your shop floor will be a concrete slab right? So what do you mean by 5" of insulation in the floor?

I don't know what the insulation standards are in your area, but 8" of insulation in the attic seems a little slim to me. Is it an attic or are you insulating the slant roof rafters? The more insulation you can get to cap off the building the easier and less expensive it's going to be to heat it. From a heating system cost, time to raise the temperature of the building, cost of fuel for heat, and overall comfort point of view, I would invest in the highest levels of insulation I could. Once you've done that, everything becomes much easier. Insulation is purchased once, it never needs to be maintained or replaced and it will continue to save you money for the life of the building. Especially for the roof, I like cellulose a lot more than I do fiberglass batts. Don't use blown-in fiberglass anywhere. If you can build the building so that it has an attic floor, you can really get a lot of insulation in there at a reasonable cost. It's much more expensive to insulate roof rafters to a high level.

I hope this information is useful.

Greg

[colterphoto1]

Thanks for the info Greg. I meant 5" of concrete with 2" of blue board under it and around the foundation walls to the frost line.

It's not a very steep pitched roof 5/12 and trusses, so next to impossible to get up there after drywalling ceiling to blow in insulation. I'll have to use fiberglass batts and will put as much as I can given the handling issues of it. Maybe 10-12" I don't know. I going extra to put in real foundation and 2x6 walls vs the standard 'pole barn' yech hate that stuff.

I'll have to think the 4 season's use of the workshop over a bit. Electricity is about .06 kw here so relatively inexpensive. I do have gas to the house but would be an expense getting it run to the shop building, running it under slab porch etc. Very difficult to do so probably won't. Again, I'm not trying to keep it a toasty 70F, just keep the chill off and keep paint from freezing, that kind of comfort.

For the cost, I'll run the PEX and put full insulation under slab. I don't have to use it right away. Would I need to cap it off, put anti-freeze in, or what before winter if I'm not heating the tubing? It may be spring before I can get the utilities done. Probably will be doing well to get siding on and moved in before Thanksgiving.

[gaspr]

Michael, I think you will find radiant heat very much to your liking...could probably keep the stat set at 45 to 50 degrees and you would be amazed at just how comfy this can feel on a cold winter day. Kind of like being out in the sun on a nice calm fall day. As long as you are not opening your big door too often, you could probably get away with a large water heater as a heat source. Just don't expect a rapid recovery. As Greg has mentioned, the issue of temp control can be a problem using regular thermostats. Their on/off differential is to wide and therefore the slab temp will overshoot and then under shoot the setpoint temp. There are controls available that use PWM (pulse width modulation) circuitry that can really help a radiant slab maintain a constant temp. Solar water heat can easily be added to a floor heat system down the road...kinda pricey tho...

Greg, thanks for the info on your setups. I am somewhat familiar with the Tekmar controls and I agree that they seem to be getting more and more costly and complicated. I have been looking at controls made by Azel...might be something there that could work for you at a reasonable price.

Should we start a new thread about radiant heat??

[BLSamuel]

I'd think 45 to 50 degrees would feel very nice on a cold winters day. Maybe a little halogen light to focus light where you need it and on the fingers and you're in business.

We have a large detached unheated garage with a loft, but it is insulated and drywalled and it feels a lot nicer in there when it's really cold out. It's detached but only about 3 to 4 feet behind the house with a few feet overlap - makes a nice wind tunnel and seems too small for a breezeway.

It's not even too bad to work in when it's sunny and around freezing outside as long as there's not much wind. Just standard 2x4 walls though with (cheap) insulated garage doors that are rotting out and need to be replaced. Poor build though as they didn't insulate the slab and maybe didn't even include a proper vapor barrier as the concrrete floor gets pretty wet at times.... Now if they'd have just gotten floor right and made a proper 2nd floor, then we'd have a nice space for a man cave, as it is, there is a lot of storage space... though could add a dormer or two for some headroom sometime... (but not really proper joists for a real floor).

The previous owner said he raised it up or something ..... looks more like it started with maybe a nice high ceiling of about 10' and then put in a "floor" making the ceiling height a little lower than it should be using angle iron to hang 2x6 (or 2x8 not sure I measured) spaced too far for a floor) leaving enough room that I can stand upright for about 4 to 6 feet down the center beneath the drywalled ceiling. Would've been really nice if they'd built a real second floor or at least a proper floor as then a dormer or dormers fore and / or aft could've made a nice space up there for office or game room or man cave. (Before I started hanging out here, I didn't realize I needed a man cave... but I did know that my stereo sucks (and still does) but it could be worse - at least there's no speakers with a name that rhymes with hose).

(way too past my bedtime)

[michael hurd]

Michael, radiant heat is a wonderful thing, you can also like greg was mentioning, have a seperate zone ( say a large 6" thick core with a fan ) blowing hot, high temp air on demand to warm up a shop ( even though the floor is warm, picture opening the door in winter ) for make-up heat. This can be installed later on definately.

I would definately run the pex in the floor, you only have one chance to do it, now is the time, even if you don't use it for a year or two. Insulate as much as you can, that is a definate plus, floor definately a must.

[colterphoto1]

Did I mention that I'm already sold on radiant heat as the most comfortable heat on the planet?

In Great-Grandma's old farm house where I once lived, we had the cast iron radiators and a humongous boiler in the basement fed by the farm's own natural gas well! You could feel breeze through the old windows in the winter, but still toasty warm.

This 1950's house where I now live has baseboard radiant heat. I put in a new boiler when I moved in. It's comfy but with no insulation in the walls and steel windows it still costs a fortune. Why no ins in the walls? 4" limestone outside, 1" plaster inside, 2-3 fireblocks in each stud cavity. It'll be a $8,000 job to drill the masonry for blown in. I'm cutting away all the foundation plantings right now in preparation to have this done some day.

In a workshop the brilliant thing about radiant is that all your hot air doesn't fall out the door every time you open it. And by keeping your feet warm and radiating warmth to the body, it should be much more comfortable (not to mention quieter) than any other heat source.

How about retrofitting it to a woodburning stove of some sort? Anyone know anything about that?

[greg928gts]

Michael, I hate to beat a dead horse, but I really can't stress this enough. Fiberglass sucks. It's not difficult at all to blow in cellulose in the attic trusses and it would make a huge difference in the performance of your shop.

I would ventilate the roof from the soffits by installing "Proper-Vents" or some other vent chute under the roof sheathing. Block off the area just above the exterior walls with a baffle of some sort so the cellulose doesn't get into the soffit area and then blow the hell out of the attic and don't look back. The best investment you can make.

If I were your builder, I would install 245 bags (25 pound bags) (yes I know that's six thousand pounds of insulation) of cellulose in your attic.

I know your budget is being stressed, but I would spend the money on this insulation before I would spend a penny putting drywall up.

Greg

[greg928gts]

This 1950's house where I now live has baseboard radiant heat. I put in a new boiler when I moved in. It's comfy but with no insulation in the walls and steel windows it still costs a fortune. Why no ins in the walls? 4" limestone outside, 1" plaster inside, 2-3 fireblocks in each stud cavity. It'll be a $8,000 job to drill the masonry for blown in. I'm cutting away all the foundation plantings right now in preparation to have this done some day.

Ouch! From what I've seen, retrofit blown-in insulation is hit or miss. It depends on the installer, but even with someone taking the time to hit every spot, there's still a good chance that areas will be missed or that every cavity will settle a bit, leaving gaps.

Trying to think of an easier and more effective solution. How's the condition of the inside of the house? Maybe re-do the walls one room at a time and insulate from the inside? You could add a layer of foam to the inside then too. It's so tough to bring an older home up to today's standards.

Greg

[Marvel]

Maybe re-do the walls one room at a time and insulate from the inside? You could add a layer of foam to the inside then too. It's so tough to bring an older home up to today's standards.

That would certainly be a royal mess and pain to do, especially with those beautiful 1 inch plaster walls.

When living in Madison Wisconsin, a guy down the block redid an early 1900s brick house. He lived in it the first winter, with only the outer brick walls and the studs. He burned a lot of gas that year, with the temps at -30 and winds hitting the house after coming across Lake Mendota. He added 2x2s to the studs to get 6 inch wall cavities. Was nice when he got done.

Bruce

[colterphoto1]

Greg, I agree that blown in cellulose is the way to go. I have about 14" in my home.

With the workshop, how am I supposed to get in there? Solid drywall ceiling, no attic storage, proably next to nil for climbing space in the trusses. That's the issue.

[colterphoto1]

Maybe re-do the walls one room at a time and insulate from the inside? You could add a layer of foam to the inside then too. It's so tough to bring an older home up to today's standards.

That would certainly be a royal mess and pain to do, especially with those beautiful 1 inch plaster walls.

When living in Madison Wisconsin, a guy down the block redid an early 1900s brick house. He lived in it the first winter, with only the outer brick walls and the studs. He burned a lot of gas that year, with the temps at -30 and winds hitting the house after coming across Lake Mendota. He added 2x2s to the studs to get 6 inch wall cavities. Was nice when he got done.

Bruce

No way I'm touching these interior walls. Gorgeous 1/2 plaster board, then 1/2 plaster board, then sweet green coat. All with new baseboard and crown molding. We didn't know about the firewalls until the electrician started carving things up. I"m removing the shubbery for several reasons, one of which is to allow easy access to drilling out the mortar joints.

[gaspr]

Solid drywall ceiling, no attic storage, proably next to nil for climbing space in the trusses. That's the issue.

Check out "raised heel trusses"...adds a little to the overall building height but gives you the needed attic space. As with any truss system, you would also have to have an attic access hole in the ceiling.