Travis In Austin

Interesting point... I interpreted his "thoughts" comment to mean that he is beginning to have some thoughts on acquiring some 402's (hence his questions about which driver is used). I didn't view it as him reviewing the thread comments and merely repeating that others have suggested the 402. Yeah my only point was after just glancing at the thread, he seemed to have a sudden switch maximinzing the wood top section horns and drivers he has now, to looking at 402 horns with Klipsch drivers. Just was thinking he may being led down the primrose path to 402's when it is not an option, unless you are going to sell em yours[] Well I am off to Waffle House, and then over to the Klipsch Factory to make some final adjustments on the Klipsch Tape demo that Jim is going to do in conjunction with his presentation. Travis

Perhaps for a reason you are now discovering? (I know nothing about your HF horn so can't and won't say it's inferior) BUT... the Klipsch solutions have been... here's that darn word again, "fully engineered" to sound good! They also have that constant directivity stuff built into them (more technical stuff that I know little about) In the home, 2-way setup the K-69 tweeter driver is used. In the 3-way setup, they use a different driver on the K402 (don't know which one... the K1132 or K1133) and then use the K-69 mated with the K510 horn lens as the tweeter. This is for gut-busting volume as I understand. Some are now using the TAD 4002 driver with excellent results however, from what you've said about budget constraints, I'd forget about this one. None of that really matters does it? He can't buy a K402 horn, and he sure can't make one or have one made. Klipsch isn't in the parts business. I'm guessing that is why Bob is suggesting those alternative horns, at least I think. But isn't there a more fundamental problem, without the dirty curves on whatever bass bin and top horn he is using AND the polar plots there is no way to determine how well any particular horn, driver, crossover (digital or passive) is going to work. In his description of the problems he was experiencing in the large room he is experiencing beaming. There are too many factors to even begin to approach this fundamentaly. There are just too many unknowns and now there is the complication of a different room. He could very well need a three-way system if he continues to want this application to be primarily for his son's live performances. He may even want to double stack whatever bass bins those are. If they are mainly going to be for the home, like Mike said at the beginning, the size/particulars of the room are going to be important, together with the proper data on the horns. You can't take one piece of the puzzle, a horn, driver, etc. and expect to have any improvement in his situation. Like you said, those systems are fully tested, and based on those tests, both in the lab and on site, are engineered and designed to fit in a number of applicatoins. TAD 4002 drivers could be the worst possible thing for what he is using, or the very best thing -- there is simply no way to know because there is information from which to even make an educated guess. I think anyone suggesting various parts and pieces from a Klipsch system isn't really helping him and will only get him spun around, because there isn't enough information to tell how one or more pieces is going to interact with his other pieces. Since is sounds like Bob is at least somewhat familar with what he using his best bet, IMHO, is to go with that. The rest of us are just pissing in the wind. Travis

I'm trying to start the year off right with a "top notch" right off the bat. The number of "top notch" monikers I received in 2010 was down 8 percent from '09 and I am setting out to reverse that trend. Travis

I wrote the following in another thread on here back in August of 2008, I don't think a lot has changed since then: TheBes, I was reading your post with great interest, as I am usually prone to do given your gift of prose and spinning a yarn. As a matter of fact, I am was having a bit of hot tea in your honor as I read the responses. It figures that CBS is way off in their numbers. They are not even close. As you know, I am a big vinyl fan, have lots of it, and am always looking for more of it. I really wish it was true, that vinyl got it's groove back, but the fact of the matter is that vinyl is insignificant in the total U.S. music market. So why do they continue to make it? Because it is a high markup item, and idiots like me are more then willing to pay twice what a cd costs for perceived (actual in most cases) superior sound , collectibility, nostalgia, to justify high $ turntable rigs, etc. Thus, on a limited scale it is still profitable. LP's are now made in much smaller runs, 1,000, 2,000 maybe 5,000, and then they sell what they make. Depending on how fast they sold they may, or may not, run another batch. The day's of cutouts and bargin bins are pretty much over. All new vinyl is pretty much a limited edition, whether it is marketed that way or not. Why the growth last year? I am not really sure but I think it is for a number of reasons, some previously stated in this thread. Things like folks, like me, that grew up with the lp format will continue to buy in that format as long as we can. Others see that it is still out there a plenty and that it is relatively easy get back into it and so they have. Others have found, to their own ears, that it provides something that the digitial formats do not and so they have taken the splurge. You hear their stories in threads of this forum all the time. Now the real question. Why was it big news this year? Because it was about the only positive thing that the music industry had to report. CD sales have been in a decline for 4 years and even with downloads, total music sales have also been on a 4 year skid. So some music industry executive when asked about the 20% decline in sales responds with some good news: "Well that is true, but downloads sales are skyrocketinng and vinyl is making a comeback. Vinyl sales are up nearly 50% from last year." You sit back and get a warm fuzzy feeling inside with visions of giant vinyl retailers poping back up again, advertising that they stay open 'till midnight every day of the year with thousands of square feet of vinyl as far as the eye can see. Then you realize that when you look at the numbers, vinyl is not even a drop in the bucket. I too had romantic ideas of vinyl being stocked in every department and drug store once again when I heard the stories about vinyl sales on the rise. I was brought back to harsh reality by my bean counting wife's uncle. Her uncle used to be a top A&R man at A&M records until H & J sold it to Segrams. He then went to Nielson Soundscan, i.e, Billboard, the company that is charged with tracking music sales. He is really into vinyl, and we were sitting playing some of mine when they were in town earlier this year and I brought up the Wired article that came out in the spring that suggested that vinyl was going to be the death of the CD. He laughed and said, "I hate to burst your bubble but . . . ." He then went on to explain that it was true that LP shipments were in fact up over 35% from '06 to '07. He then had me guess what the total number of lp's shipped were in '07. I thought 5 million so I said 3 million cause I knew it was a trick question. He said that the units shipped went from 900,000 units to 1.3 million. Well not bad right, I mean, that's 400,000, units, not chump change. The shape of things to come right? He explained that was a jump of $15,000,000 to almost 23M in sales, and that was the key to seeing it continue. I thought that was pretty impressive jump, but the numbers sounded so low. I then thought, well this is all relative, and I asked him what do these numbers really mean in relation to the whole picture. He said that was the other part of the story that was not being presented because the industry was searching to put a positive spin on anything in light of all of the bad news. In '07 over a half billion CD's were shipped, with sales of over 7.4 billion. That's billion with a B. The total U.S. music market in '07 was 10.3 billion, down almost 1.5 billion from '06. CD's were 83% of the market. Vinyl? 7/10 of 1%, a whopping 1/10 of 1% up from '06 (down 2/10 from '04, where vinyl was almost 1% of the market). To put that in perspective, SACD's accounted for 6/10 of 1% of sales. You remember SACD? That is the format that everyone is saying that is all but dead and gone. DVD-A sales are 1.2% of the market. It's not back, it's not even close to being back. But it is steady, and appears to be profitable to the extent that we are getting both great reissues and new stuff. Hopefully it will continue to be profitable for companies to be able to offer it at a price, while more expensive then CD/downloads, is still within the realm of reason. I agree with all of the atributes that have been mentioned by others here as to why it continues to be made and sold when the market has obviously gone for the CD. Now the good news I got today was that Tascam was talking about going back into making reel to reel machnes and I am dreaming of big return of reel to reel pre-recorded tapes (I'm a subscriber to the Tape Project, a total of 10 tapes that pop out 1 every couple of months). Well I can dream can't I? Travis Well I don't think Tascam got back into making reel to reel machines, the Tape Project continues to issue tapes, pre-recorded tapes have not made a comeback. I keep waiting though. Travis

I sent you a pm with my email address, sorry I just saw you pm to me. Travis

Gee Gary, how on earth would you have that much cash laying around in 1980?

I often wondered that same thing, then I kind of discovered that most of these companies are privately held, like Klipsch, and so sales figures are only what these companies choose to report or disclose to the media. You have listed companies like Yamaha and JBL which are part of multinational conglomarates that sell many products in addition to speakers. Even though they are publicly traded they do not break down their sales figures by product line. The holding company for JBL, Harmon International, had 9,816 full-time employees, including 3,362 employees located in North America, in June of last year. Bowers and Wilkins has 300.Harmon International has sales of 3.3 billion, of that 2.4 billion was in automotive. That leaves 900 million for consumer and professional audio. From what I understand, Klipsch has sales in excess of 175 million. I have been unable to find any sales figures from B&W, but it is still hard to compare since they are a UK company and are probably gov subsidized at least to some extent. Another way to look at it is market share. From what I understand, Klipsch has, by far, the largest market share in the professional theater market. Travis

Ki, Can you tell me who the artists/performers are on the tape and the songs? That will help me answer your question. Travis

With all due respect to PWK, Irish was awful tape. Dave It depends which Irish. 3M had them beat by about 3 years before Irish started making tape (1950), but 3M was only using Acetate or paperbacked. Orr, offered acetate and a "plastic backed" (mylar). They then came up with a better oxide formula, ferro-sheen and they really took off. Ampex bought a 26 percent stake in the company in 1959 or so and eventually bought the whole company. After the started branding things "Ampex Tape" in 1960, they branded Irish tape as there B stock (No 021 or 031 I believe) which was anything they had laying around the warehouse in Alabama and so that stuff would be hit or miss. But there top grade stuff in 53 to '59 was on the forefront, and used in many studios. After that, I think you fellas are right, it was hit or miss. That Klipsch demo tape is the Irish Shamrock 300, their best stuff at the time, Pro quality, but unfortuantely it is Acetate, and it has a very limited life if not stored properly because it will leach acetic acid, become dry and brittle and fall to pieces. If it is stored at room temp. it starts to deteroiate at 20 to 30 years. If stored at 40 degrees they think it will last hundreds of years. They know all of that because of film preservation and restoration, which was also made out of acetate. That was mightly lucky find on Ebay for that tape, and in playable condition no less. It is good he lived on NW Coast, because humid climates are what is good for acetate. To play very old ones instead of bakeing them, you humidify them. I should see if Amy will let me come up and make backup/Safetys of those 7 tapes she has so it is not an issue. Travis

There was a bit of promo history between Klipsch and Orr Industries/Irish Recording Tape

Ki, Thanks for the follow up. There was a signigicant amount of hiss at 15 IPS? Those old Concords must have had a 40 db S/N. Can you make heads or tails of the insert, Paragraph 4 where it discussed "preferred bass" and speakers of differnet frequency response? Travis

The whole thread is incredible. I am worried a little bit, I got my amps back about a year or two ago and have not installed them yet. They just might not work. On the bright side, I have what looks like a great way around it. Travis

I have all of their main manuals, and it would be 2" 24 track, not 25, and most of those are going to be in their MM line and NONE of them talk about 50 plays, or any number for that matter, causing a loss of frequency response, added noise or anything else. Ampex created a primer on magnetic recording called “Magnetic Recording Theory” where they state: “7. Tape can be played back thousands of times, which permits extracting every bit of usual information from the recording.” What you were probably reading is the part where it says if you do not demagnitize your heads you can suffer problems either in the nature of added noise (HISS), or permanent partial loss of the high frequencies. It very possible that the manual suggested demagnetizing the heads every 50 plays, or 50 hours, to avoid the possibility of the heads becoming magnetized and damaging the recording (the current suggested rule of thumb is every 8 hours of play if you do not have a magnetometer to check). EVERY Ampex manual I have ever seen says that you should demagnetize the heads if they become magnetized. The early ones stated it should be done if they become magnetized and didn’t set forth a specific interval. They stated that failing to do so would cause added noise of 10 to 12db. Later on they stated that it would cause added noise and permanent partial loss of high frequency reproduction, and they also started suggesting regular demagnetization at prescribed intervals of time. But this is quite different then saying that playing a tape will cause loss of playback frequency response, it doesn’t. I just don’t want people to get the impression that playing their tape will cause damage to it, it doesn’t if your machine is clean, both tape path and heads, and you demagnetize your heads properly. As long as those parameters are met, and there are no issues with the tape material, they can play their tapes 50, 100 or even 500 times and they are not going to lose ANY frequency response in their tape. Travis

When we all wanted R2R machines and Klipsch speakers. Nostalgia, kind of like Cornwalls and Heresys.[] Quality never goes out of style.

JJ, Recheck that manual, I don't think an Ampex manual will say anything about loss of anything at 50 plays. Maybe 5000 plays, but not 50, I could be wrong, but I have a lot of Ampex manuals and I have never read anything about loss frequency response by playback. As to the smoke particle, that is absolutly true, but a fingerprint, which is a fraction of that width can cause loss. But it is pretty easy to keep tape both smoke and fingerprint free. The attached article, at P. 22 discusses this along with all of the issues assocaited with tape storage, care, etc. Travis AP_NMLdoc_magtape_S_H.pdf

Cigarbum, From reading through this thread it sounds like you should start with a 4 track machine rather than a 2 track deck, simply because there is so much more in the way of prerecorded tapes in 4 track. You can play around with that deck and if you are pretty certain that you want to do some serious recording you can look for a two track deck. In terms of the best of the best 4 track consumer deck Revox is going to be on that list, and Tandberg 10XD,the Tandberg is 3 speed,3.75, 7.5 and 15 ips, 4 track, and special record bias that allows a dynamic range approaching 90 db in the mid frequency. On a Tandberg you have to make sure they will stand behind it, there are no parts, and and just a handfull of people that can work on them. Soundsmith in NY will refurburish your unit for you but you will pay a ton for this. The Technics RS series decks are great, but the prices are sky high and are not worth the money given the limited playback quality (in my opinion). So unless you can steal one for four or five hundred, in great shape, I would avoid these two. With the Revox you want to make sure that it is in good working order, and the person selling will back them up. Stay away from Ebay sale where they are not going to allow you to return it. Someone made a very good suggestion and that is the Otari MX 5050B-II, but you want to be sure it is the 4 head model. This gives you the best of both worlds, you can play back 4 track pre-recorded reels, and you can RECORD and play back 2 track tapes. Has all 3 speeds, 3.75, 7.5 and 15 IPS so you can figure out for yourself that the difference between 7.5 and 15 isn't really worrying about, and that there is no noticable hiss when you have a S/N ratio on these "modern" decks of over 70db. But, as also suggested, beware on these decks. The std. 3 head configuration will only allow you to record and play two track tapes. These decks were mostly used in professional settings and universities where they were used and abused almost to death. They are bought at auction and resold on ebay all the time. Again, if they won't stand behind it, I would pass. There is a guy in Florida who refurbishes a lot of Otari on Ebay, I have heard mixed reviews. If you see something specific, regardless of the brand, post it here and we can get you some quick feedback. You may want to consider something like a Pioneer Rt 1011, it is an great, bullet proof deck, and not too much money to get your feet wet to see if you want to play around more with this. They are in the 150 to 250 range, will play 10" tapes, 4 track, 3.75 and 7.5 speeds. They are well built and never seem to fail. Teac 1000 and 2000 are great decks that are also bullet proof. If you can find a nice Revox I am sure you will be happy with it, but you have other choices that are well within your budget. Travis

Wow, how cool that must have been. Ki, if you want to know a little more about these tapes you can go here: http://forums.klipsch.com/blogs/amy/archive/2008/03/10/who-here-remembers-klipschtape.aspx They were not demo tapes, they were sold seperately, but what you all had certainly looks like it could be a prototype for the tapes they eventually issued. Amy has not been able to tell me yet how many were sold and what outlets they were sold through. At some point they switched to a state of the art ampex deck and and started recording at 7.5 ips, two track stereo. The tape y'all have appears to be almost a prototype. As the blog entry above mentions, it appears that 8 titles were made by Klipschtape, 7001 to 7008. I am attaching the insert for KST--7001, and it is 7.5 IPS stereo. I am guessing that 7001 was the first tape in the series, so what was the tape you all had, something that John Eargle sent to dealers to see if they had an interest in selling the tapes? Dr. Edgar new John Eargle, in fact I think there was a SoCal Klipschowners meeting that John Eargle spoke at. Unfortunatley he passed away a few years ago before I had a chance to try and ask him some of these questions. Paul indicates in the box insert that one of the channels was recorded with increased bass response? The insert indicated that it was a stereo recording, but under the specifications section he says that one channel is boosted in some way. Could you tell a difference between the left right channel? I guess at that period of time they were thinking that most people were going to be playing back in mono? Or this could have been one of John Eargle's first attempt at recording, although I think he worked for Mercury Records before coming to work for Paul. Maybe stereo was so new that John didn't understand that you don't want to record one channel with boost on a stereo tape? Did the owner of the tape provide any insight on these issues? Travis

That is a real easy fix on that unit as I recall. It is a POT adjustment, and is set with a volt meter, you may not even need a tensionometer, which is great if you can avoid, becasue they are impossible to come by. I take it you don't have the service manual for that unit? If not, let me see if I can find you one on PDF to send you. Travis

I'm here, how can I help? Travis

Art, You are correct on the limited life, they can and to wear out, but my current zerostat is 10 plus years old and still going strong. You can tell when they start to go just from the amount of static that remains, but they also include that hand checker tip just to be sure. As far as the dust accumulation, I guess it is like everything else where milage may vary. In the southwest we have more sand type dust, I don't know if that makes a difference or not. But Gruv-glide is tallow quaternary ammonium salt, used in some anti-static dryer cloths, a mixture of animal fat and ammonium salts in a solvent that is evaporates quickly. It is is not applied correctly, as you say, you risk the accumulation of salts in the grove which for sure you don't want. But it still leaves an animal fat based layer (that is what makes the shine you speak of) on your record and while it won't attract dust or dirt, if it lands on there it can stick. It was designed to last at least ten plays, which means it is evaporating/vaporizing with stylus contact or, possibly, is partialy being picked up by the stylus but it is going somewhere and that is what always worried me. I get the same results with good cleaning, zerostat and anti-static sleeves. I may play around with it again on some records I don't really care about and see what the sound difference is and if any residue comes after proper application. I think it would almost be impossible to tell if it makes any noticible difference on stylus wear, or record wear, since it is going to take a lot of records to get to the point of wear with good clean records and proper tracking weight etc. even without an application of Last or GG. But if it sounds better, than I am all for it. AES actually did a study on playing wet records vs. dry ones, since a lot of folks claimed that playing them wet resutlted in better sound, etc. I can't remember what the paper concluded. Travis

Art, I am really sorry to hear about your experience with Clarity vinyl from Classic. It seems you ran into a bad patch of luck. I have gotten all of my Clarity lp's from themusic.com (the affilliated online outlet of Classic) where you can request one of the first 50 pressings and ask them to hand select a copy for you and so, knock on wood, I have not experienced the same situation you have. All pressing plants have issues, ask anyone who bought the Doors limited edition set (RTI). I agree with you however, at this price point the quality control should be better. You might want to send Mike Hobson an email at Classic and let him know what you experienced and I am pretty sure he will help you get the thing straightened out. Have you returned both LP's yet? If not I would write him a note for sure, as opposed to dealing with the people you bought it from, and ask if you can send them to him to check out, and from past experience I would expect that he is going to find you a good set of vinyl. He is an audiophile so he is also going to talk your language as well. Out of curiosity, where did you purchase yours from? Travis

Hey Y'all Thanks for thinking of me. I am alive and o.k., very busy and, as Gary says, have a lot going on in my life right now. I don't think I will be making it to Hope next month either, but you never know. Cornman, come on over and listen to Jubes, I would love to have you over. Any evening or weekend, let me know. Travis

An afterthought, what type of sleeves are you using? If you are putting them back into original paper sleeves this could be adding to a static problem in a dry climate. The antistatic sleeves that are available really are just that. Antistatic sleeves and Zerostat should eliminate any and all static problems. Travis

If you are getting noise from static electricty, whether it be pops or a lot of noise when you pull the record off the platter, than I concur 100 percent with Oldtimer, drop the $80 or so for a Zerostat, lasts forever, and it really, really works. I used Groove Glide 10 or 15 years ago on some records (manufactured in Las Vegas, where it is warm and dry like where you live) and while it does work for awhile, the draw back is that it traps dust and dirt. It is not a cleaner, so whatever pops and click are in your record to begin with, are still going to be there, and the residue is going to build up on your stylus. If you are getting pops and clicks from other sources such as dirt, etc. that is a whole different topic and there is a lot of great information about that in threads that you can search with terms like record clean, etc. I personally use Disk Doctor with his brushes. Travis

There is an important distinction between recording and mixing/mastering. They were indeed recorded with mono in mind, and stereo was only given a secondary consideration. The mixing and mastering would be specific for mono as well as stereo. In the UK, and the US, stereo was a sliver of the market, and they were gearing up for mass marketing. As has been mentioned, PPM was recorded in ONE day. Two track, vocals on one, instruments on another. This was actually higher tech at the time, instead of all on one track, it was on two. With one track tape being sent for mastering, if the instruments drowned out the vocals there was nothing mastering was going to do to really help. Recording PPM and WTB the two tracks were mainly for mono, so that mixing and mastering could reach the right balance of vocals and instruments. For stereo they just ran vocals out of left channel and everything else out of the right. Ever wonder by those early 60's stereo amps, Mac esp. had a multi selector swittch, L to RL, R to LR, Stereo reverse, etc.? If you prefer your vocals out of the right it was very easy to do, insturmental only, vocals only, etc. Things are complicated further because in addition to recordinng for mono as primary, there was different mixing and mastering for the U.S. issues, resulting in major differences between the releases. Travis