ClaudeJ1

Forgot to mention that if you build, or have Jason STR build you a Low Profile THT (Bill Fitzmaurice design) with a 12" driver, you can cut your footprint by another and still have a horn sub against a wall or corner. If you put it in a corner, you will extend the bass response lower because the corner becomes part of the horn. You will give up a little efficiency, but still blow away a Direct Radiator sub.

The F-20 is a super easy build and goes a little lower than a THT. If you stand it up against a wall with the mouth along the wall, it has a relatively small footprint (20x30") for a horn. 4 of those would equal at least 8 18's and can be built for less than a kilobuck. I'm just sayin'. For a Million Dollars, you could build 4,000 of them, but you would be really really busy for a long time. But you could entertain an entire metro area when your were done.

HYPEX amplifier module. A future Jubilee customer has these and raves about them. If you go to their website, you will see some pretty convincing tech data. Latest technology of Class D or whatever amplifiers. Please not Signal to Noise ratio figures are 23 db worse at 2.83 V (1W into * ohms) vs. full output which is where most amps do their measuring, SS or Tubes. Tubes on top SS on bottom, I always say. I especially like the comment about the "fairy dust." I think a tube version would be very expensive, if not impossible. The astounding performance of Ncore technology is now available to DIY enthusiasts. The NC400 packs a feature set never before seen in a modular amplifier product. The NC400 module's audio performance sets new standards, regardless of operating class or circuit technology. Distortion (THD and IMD) over the full audio and power range is negligible, typically below 0.0007%. Distortion at listening levels (1W) is unmeasurable. This amp adds neither dirt nor fairy dust. http://www.hypex.nl/product/2012-11-23-13-41-35/nc400.html

PM sent, I'll take the last 2 then.

Papa Pass is the man.

As much as i support amps i have to agree. With this set up i think the money could be used for something else that would be more noticeable. That said if you plan to upgrade your speakers some day then it would set you up for that. And like others have said it can't hurt. Yes, the "more noticeable something else." Buy bass horns and Mini DSP, not more watts. PWK said distortion went up as power went up because cone motion goes up to produce that distortion. Want to reduce cone motion and distortion? Put a horn on it instead of buying more watts. Or if you do buy more watts then buy more cones to reduce cone motion. Wheter horn loaded, or not, drivers have thermal power compression non-linearities at 10% of their rated power. Since all amplifiers Signal to Noise ratings are based on full output (which is seldom used with Klipsch speakers), the lower powered amps have lower noise fo a given S/N spec.

Well, the beauty of using tube power amps on Klipsch Heritage is that you can keep down the wattage 10-35 Watts per channel is plenty good. So if you get one from China, you can have the "tube sound" pretty cheap since the power requirements are not as high as non-Klipsch speakers.

I helped a friend build and set up his OB system based on Martin King data. I'm amazed at the 3 dimensional depth and the BASS response.....super detailed. His is a 3-way with AMT tweeters and a 4" Fostex mid. He plans on going full D'Apoolition configuration in the future with 2 woofers per side, two 8" mids, and the same tweeter. The speakers simply "dissapear" and the sound comes from 10 ft behind the speaker in a virtual hologram. It is totally amazing.

It's starting to look like a Voice of the Theater woofer section, minus the bass reflex, of course.

Yes, and they are cheap, too.

LOL. I'm more impressed with the IRON. When I had tubes, I mostly listened to them in the winter and SS in the summer. So heating spaces was seasonally balanced. LOL.

Apparently NOT, since the cost issue was the original title of this thread.

Yes, they sound good, but not that good. Non linear behavior with non linear speaker loads. Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching. Not worth it for me, but obviously yes for others. Try chip amps. You should listen to some modern tube designs. Nothing like what you describe. Shakey You should listen to even more modern solid state designs like Class D. Listen to whatever you like, but just know that there are tube amps that can compete with SS amps at what they do best. Don't paint with such a broad brush. And like I said, there are some good sand amps that can give you a healthy dose of tube goodness, but don't quite make it all the way there. Shakey I painted with a fine, pointed brush. I'd like to see a tube amp do as good of a job at driving my DTS-10's or a "wall full of 18's" using tubes. Considering how many modern speaker setups use subs nowadays (greater than 50 percent, I suspect, so millions). But when you are looking go a GOOD 8-35 watts to drive an all horn system, tubes are wonderful, better yet when used just for mids and tweets with a solid state, high damping factor, amp on the woofer section, especially a DIRECT RADIATOR woofer section. If you truly want the best, you will have a bi-amped (passive or active) hybrid system. Best of both worlds, not just "tubes."

I agree with Doc, here. Helped a friend with his 3 spuds and we played around with the two. Mouths apart gave a better room response than mouths together. I build a LAB 12 Tapped Horn also but it crossed at 60 Hz, which is really low and mouths closer will not be better overall.

I have one pair of KPT-100 and two pair (4) of the KPT-200. If you get 4 of the KPT-200's I can give you a better deal than the Craigslist guy. PM me if interested.

Had those horns for a few years. The EV 9040's were a close third. K402's beat them both.

Sounds excellent. I'm a Danley fan. Coherence of his Synergy horns is unmatched by anything I know of. His Jericho horns are nothing short of awesome for outdoor use.

Horn woofer to 60 Hz., yes, horn sub, no, but it's another project on a long list. I like the idea of a modified F-20, since I already have two Danley DTS-10's. The F-20 has the same footprint as my Lab 12 Tapped Horn that I built (from another designer). A longer and/or taller F-20 type with an 18 would be awesome and get well over 100 Hz., which the tapped horns get funky after about 70 Hz. I really like Lil Mike's folding scheme on the F-20 after living with it for almost 2 years, I still very much love my F-20. sure, there are subs that dig deeper but I never seem to find myself desiring more when i'm in the middle of an action scene. I'm sure I could change your mind if I hooked up a DTS-10 and more watts in it's place. Going down to 10 Hz. is another octave below what you have. But, it is diminishing returns since LFE channels with that super low content is rare. The Flight of the Phoenix plane crash is one and it has 5 Hz. content!

Since the woofers currently have 6 cubic foot vented boxes, I will try those first to see how well they mate with a K-43 woofer and ESS AMT Tweeter, both with low Xover points. I may not have to build a horn, but if I do, I will have to make sure I go to the trouble of measuring the T/S parameters first to see if the woofer will work in an F-20, which is an "offset horn" design. The most I would have to modify to let the woofer fit is 1/4-1/2 inch. It may also need to lenghten to allow for a larger back air chamber, but there is much work and listening to do first with the new system. I'm leaning towards a full horn design, like the F-20 since I like the folding and simple construction along with the versatile footprint.

Looks like a Hopeless situation to me.

Yes, they sound good, but not that good. Non linear behavior with non linear speaker loads. Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching. Not worth it for me, but obviously yes for others. Try chip amps. You should listen to some modern tube designs. Nothing like what you describe. Shakey You should listen to even more modern solid state designs like Class D.

This is a question that I field constantly. Tube amps do not have to be expensive. In fact, it's possible to create wonderful sounding tube amps for a very modest expenditure. I do that all the time. That said, there are different grades of output transformers available for tube amps- the best are very costly. But, in the real world, when running comparisons of those with the less expensive offerings, the difference in sound often doesn't justify the huge cost difference. The amount of power required also has an influence on the cost. Power transformers which can deliver a few hundred volts at, say, a quarter amp are expensive. Large value electrolytic caps rated for 500 volts can get costly as well. In some amps, many of such electrolytics are needed. The tubes themselves, depending on the design of the amp and power needed, can get quite expensive. Some manufacturers use "audiophile grade" components in their products. These are often quite expensive (and imo aren't worth the cost at all.) There's also the issue of the kind of enclosure the amp is built in. One with a 3/8" thick front plate "milled from a solid block of aluminum sourced from the purest source on Earth" can comprise half the cost of the amp! Hope this clarifies the question a bit... Maynard Which brings to mind the question: Why step up voltages and impedances, unless you are Julius Futterman, only to transform them down for low voltage, low impedance loudspeakers, while creating space heaters in the process. For a pre-amp it makes some sense, but for power amps? Not so much. You good iron and that's where the cost is....the output transformers.

Used Horn Resp to design my bass horns. Very good simple software. Danley said he would have given his right arm to have Hornresp 20 years ago.

Horn woofer to 60 Hz., yes, horn sub, no, but it's another project on a long list. I like the idea of a modified F-20, since I already have two Danley DTS-10's. The F-20 has the same footprint as my Lab 12 Tapped Horn that I built (from another designer). A longer and/or taller F-20 type with an 18 would be awesome and get well over 100 Hz., which the tapped horns get funky after about 70 Hz. I really like Lil Mike's folding scheme on the F-20 after living with it for almost 2 years, I still very much love my F-20. sure, there are subs that dig deeper but I never seem to find myself desiring more when i'm in the middle of an action scene. I'd be real happy with 20 Hz cutoff instead of the 10-15 from my Super Spuds, just to get to above 100 Hz. to mate with a different top end for my 2.1 setup for vinyl collection. Already have the HT part covered, not on to 2.1 in a different room. Can you imagine monster 18" drivers in a modified F-20? Ridiculously low distortion with massive output power using very few watts. Horn subs forever.

Yes, they sound good, but not that good. Non linear behavior with non linear speaker loads. Pleasant distortions by way of even order harmonics is what makes the "warm" sounding. Not a bad thing, but not worth the money. Been there done that with Mac, Marantz, HK Citation, Dynaco, Scott, etc................space heaters that need to have the bias babysat and tube replacment/matching. Not worth it for me, but obviously yes for others. Try chip amps.