Stu Pidass

Splitting the cabvle into the sub will provide a 6db gain and as such is recomended. Also if your using it for 2 channel audio in addition to HT don't be afraid to: 1 - Run speaker wires from you main outs directly to the sub. Share the main outs with your main speakers. 2 - Then simply adjsut the crossover to take over from where your mains leave off (or start to roll off). 3 - Adjust the volume so it blends and does not overpower the mains 4 - use the recievier setup with a rat shack SPL to adjust the sub for HT 5 - Kisck back and perfevtly blended two channel with sub and also great HT without any tweeking when switching back and forth. Regards, Stu f>------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

George: Sorry to possibly add to your confusion but I have more info relevant to your problem (again quoted from another sourse). See the following: "The Marriage between the Subwoofer and Tower Speakers Some marriages are easier than others. They require minimal maintenance to flourish and thrive successfully on mutual cooperation right off the bat. Some marriages however, are not so divine and can be bitter sweet at times of chaos requiring much nurturing to prevent rotten out. Such is the case with home theater. When one chooses the commitment of buying bass capable tower speakers and mating them with a subwoofer for home theater and music applications, the potential of sonic bliss or troubled misfortunes begin brewing. The purpose of this article is to identify and red flag issues which may lead to problems when combining a subwoofer with bass capable speakers. 1.0 Fixed LFE output of 80-90Hz. Most Receivers and Processors have one fixed LFE setting of about 80-90Hz as per THX recommendation. Please review the article I wrote "Turn That LFE Setting Down". for more ellaboration on this topic. In my opinion, Lucas should stick to creating puppets for Star Wars and stop trying to concoct useless or unwarranted specifications for Surround Sound. Bass waves are localizable to the human ear as far down as 60Hz and thus crossing over a subwoofer at 80-90Hz may lead to overemphasis of these frequencies resulting in unnatural, colored and localizable bass. In addition, a high crossover setting for a subwoofer buttressed with bass capable speakers only amplifies this problem because of their synergistic effect. 2.0 Non-defeatable crossover on sub or processor or both. To combat problem flagged in #1, it would be useful to defeat the LPF (Low Pass Filter) internal to the Receiver/Processor. If this is not possible, the user may have no choice but to use the adjustable LPF of the subwoofer in conjunction with the LPF from the Receiver/Processor. Doing so may result in problems with: Too much transition band attenuation, excessively attenuated signal. Added group delay of 2 filters cascaded causing phasing problems between subwoofer and main speakers. The result is unwanted canceling of certain bass frequencies. Null or resonance caused by impedance change resulting in accentuation or attenuation of particular frequencies within the passband of the subwoofer. 3.0 Minimal group delay of digital LPF in processor. Let us simplistically define group delay as the rate of change of the total phase shift with respect to angular frequency. Most high end Receivers/Processors handle bass management in the digital domain and thus all of the filtering is done digitally. Digital FIR filtering is very good, sometimes too good in that these filters add no group delay. Ideally this is desirable, until you couple this system with a pair of bass capable speakers that have a woofer crossed over with an analog filter. The added group delay from the analog filter within the speakers can cause a phasing problem with the subwoofer resulting in poor bass response (see point #2 above). There are two potential ways to combat this dilemma: Reverse or adjust the phase of the subwoofer via the phase control on the back panel. Reduce the distance of the subwoofer relative to the listening position in the set-up of the Processor if that feature is contained within (IE. The shorter the physical distance you enter into the processor between the sub and listening position, the more delay the processor adds to the sub output). 4.0 Phase switch on subwoofer. A phase switch basically electrically reverses the polarity of the subwoofer and thus changes phase angle by 180 degrees. This is sometimes useful in cases where the Receiver/Processor subwoofer output is electrically out of phase with the speaker outputs. Use this option with caution, starting with the 0 degree as default. Let your ear be the judge as to which position allows your subwoofer and speakers to perform optimally. Usually there is a drastic and obvious difference between both settings. If you hear no difference, then I recommend keeping the switch set at 0 degrees. 5.0 Placement issues of subwoofer and/or speakers. Perhaps the most critical parameter to ensure optimal performance between your subwoofer and speakers is placement. I recommend reading the article I wrote regarding speaker placement at: http://audioholics.com/tip2.htm and the article I wrote regarding subwoofer placement at: http://audioholics.com/tip1.htm as starting points, and experiment liberally on your own. As a rule of thumb, bass amplitude reaches its maximum potential if the subwoofer is placed in the corner of a room where in has many surfaces to couple with. This does not imply however you will achieve optimal bass performance with respect to accuracy or finesse. Experimentation is a golden rule! 6.0 Tuning Frequency relationship between subwoofer and speakers. Speakers, particularly woofers, are designed to work within a calculated volume to achieve optimal performance. Bass Reflex speakers/subwoofers use a port or opening to tune the cabinet to a certain frequency to ensure optimal frequency response and dampening characteristics for the system. It is desirable for the speakers and subwoofer to be tuned to the same frequency for optimal blend and uniform bass response of the system as a whole. This helps to maintain proper mechanical phase between the subwoofer and speakers resulting in a seemliness blend between the two. This point is mostly important when matching large bass capable speakers with a subwoofer, and becomes a moot point when blending a pair of small, bass deficient speakers with a subwoofer. Conclusion The statements above regarding subwoofer and speaker blending were listed as potential issues one may come across when setting up such a system. It was the intent of this article to tactically assist the consumer in combating these common issues. There are many rewards in combining a subwoofer with bass capable speakers for home theater and home audio applications. I believe the ultimate way to ensure perfect blend and reproduction of all frequencies within human hearing limitations, may be achieved with this type of set-up if executed properly. It is sometimes an arduous task for neophytes and even the Audioholics to achieve perfection in their system. It requires time, patience, cooperation, understanding, and care to achieve this feat, not dissimilar to a healthy and prosperous marriage. Good luck and keep listening!" Regards, Stu f> ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

George: Others may be more qualified to answer your question(s) but I'll give you my 2 cents, for what it's worth. Your receiver may lack control over bass management (most do at least to some degree). I believe the reason why HT generally uses the 80hz crossover is linked to THX certification. That being a sattellite speaker system utilizing a sub for the low end. With full range speakers this doesn't really fit your setup. I had the same damn problem as have others on this board. The LFE signal (not "LIFE") is built into movie tracks and stands for "Low Frequency Effects". It's the receiver that sends this "extra" signal to the subwoofer through the subout cable. Therefore the sub does not require any kind of "LFE in", it simply receives the signal from the receiver and responds accordingly. The following quote from another sourse may help explain the LFE stuff: "Just because THX specified a suggested LFE cutoff frequency, doesn't mean it is correct or that it must be followed. It seems that everyone is forgetting what a subwoofer is meant to do. It is meant to act like a subwoofer, not a woofer. The purpose of a subwoofer is to reproduce very low frequencies that most loudspeakers cannot reproduce with authority on their own. In the 5.1 Digital realm, the LFE channel was introduced as a means to alleviate the demand placed on the other channels to deliver low frequencies with ample amounts of "oomph" without limiting the dynamic range. The majority of Receiver Companies continuously produce Receivers with a fixed LFE cutoff (-3dB) at 80-90Hz. These frequencies are high enough to still sound directional, especially if the sub is located in close proximity to the listening position. This makes it easy to locate the sub in the listening room and / or reinforcing standing bass waves in the listening room (60Hz) by coupling with the bass output from the main speakers if they are configured large. if you are using quality "large" Tower type speakers with inherently good bass extension. You will find the addition of a sub is much more useful as a compliment to your main speakers, producing deep, non-directional bass tones. Alternatively, you can give into the industry and accept the fact that most Receivers set their LFE at one frequency (fc = 90Hz), high enough to be allow your sub to play up to almost a 100Hz, which will most likely constructively interfering with your main speakers, increasing the chances of: 1) Unwanted and unnatural sounding standing bass waves, 2) Identifying the subwoofer as a point source rather than a discrete member. 3) Excessive bass boom. "f>" OK, so I also have a PW2200 with full range mains and use it for both 2 channel audio & HT. Here was my solution. I hooked the sub up with both the Sub Out cable and also with speaker cables that share the main speakers sourse. In the sub is hooked up using the speaker main outs on the back of the receiver. This way during 2 channel audio I can use the sub to compliment my mains. This is achieved by setting the crossover adjustment to 45 -50 hz. My speakers do very well down to 40-45 hz and then start to roll off. That's where the sub comes in. It does not overpower them but simply blends and fills in the deep non directional bass. To set the ssytem up adjust the volume of the sub to the correct level. Not overpowering but simply blending with your mains. Then use the receiver setup to adjust the volume of your sub with the help of a rat shack SPL. No adjustments are required when switching between movies and 2 channel audio. It works GREAT! At the risk of overextending this post I am pasting more info regarding the subject from another sourse as follows (it's great info): "Lately I have been receiving numerous emails from fellow Audioholics regarding subwoofer operation problems with their DD/DTS AVR Receivers. One of the most common scenarios is where the user has a 5.1 speaker system, but the AVR Receiver does not allow subwoofer output in 2-channel. Another is when the user has large bass capable main speakers but they experience no bass output, in 2-channel mode, to the subwoofer if the main speakers are configured large. The Solution: For the 1st scenario, no subwoofer output in 2 channel, regardless of speaker settings, I recommend the following if you have bass capable main, center and rear speakers: Set all speakers to "large". This bypasses all of the High Pass Filters (HPF) built into the receiver. Usually these Receivers with poor bass management set the cut off frequency too high (between 80-100Hz) with a gradual roll off of 6-12dB/octave and thus they are not worth using in my opinion. Set the subwoofer setting to "none". If the Receiver has preamp outputs for the main channels, then connect the left and right main preamp outputs of the Receiver to the inputs of the subwoofer, just like you would hook up any other component such as a DVD or CD player. Note: Make sure you connect both left and right channels into the sub, otherwise you will loose significant bass information and amplitude being sent to the subwoofer. This will ensure all of the left and right channel bass information is being routed to the subwoofer. If you do not have preamp outputs on the main channels, you must connect the subwoofer via speaker level to the main speakers. Note: Make sure when you connect the sub to the main channel speaker level that the connection is in parallel. If you use the speaker "B" outputs to connect your sub, press it 1st to verify that the connection is in parallel. If you can still hear sound out of the mains, then the connection is in parallel. If not, than you will have to connect the sub and the mains through speaker "A". Adjust the subwoofer cross-over setting between 50-60Hz. Adjust master volume of Receiver to a typical listening level. Adjust subwoofer volume on subwoofer to a level that sounds appropriate. For the 2nd scenario where you have bass capable main speakers, but small, bass shy center and rear speakers, repeat the above steps with the following exceptions: Set the center and rear speakers to "small" Adjust the subwoofer cross-over to around 80-90Hz. This will ensure optimal blend with the internal HPF's cut-off frequencies for the center and rear channels of the Receiver." Good luck and enjoy the show. Regards, Stu ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

Pipnit: Not that I'm interested but you leave more questions than you provide answers on these. Serial numbers? Finish? Crossover? How about a pic or two including the inside components?f> ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

I'm not farmiliar with the Denon model you have. On my own setup (Marantz), I set the mains to small and let the PW2200 handle the low end in HT. When I want 2 channel audio I simply bypass the digital filtering with the 2 channel direct button. Very simple, no messing around with settings and works great. Regards, Stu f>------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

I assume your Sony mini system has it's own sony speakers. When purchasing a centre channel keep in mind you want a good tonal match. Ideally it will be identical to your mains. I don't know why so many people are hung up on the rated watts of speakers. It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with quality or quantity of the sound. Just get a centre that's a good match for your mains. Regards, Stu f>------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

Try bypassing all digital filters in your receiver. My Marantz SR800 has a 2 channel direct mode which accomplished this. Hopefully your HK will also have this option. Good Luck. f>------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

Speaker cables make a difference but the "pay back" is at best questionable. Sure you don't want 50 gauge wire running 100 feet but lets get real here. Be reasonable about what you spend on wire. Your money is much better spent on other parts of your system. At the very least it should be one of the last things you upgrade. f>------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

John: It is suggested that you place them on the side walls facing each other (assuming there are two side walls) slightly above the listener. You might also try them on the rear wall slightly above the listening position and facing forward. Maybe angled down, maybe not (experiment). I hope this hits it bang on for you BUT chances are you will want to experiment to see exactly what's best. I know I would have a difficult time resisting the need to know.....What if???? Unfortunately there's really no magic "one answer fits all" way of doing it. Speaker placement has a very real and dramatic effect on your system. I just can't imagine useing a "slide rule: approach. Tweeking is half the fun. Regards, Stuf> ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

Oogins: Careful what you ask Ears. He's likeley to recommend a Thiel gigawatt bla bla bla "blow your head apart" and deafen the neighbors amplifier. Just kidding Ears, I know what a power freak you are. Here's something to consider. First of all how loud do you normally listen and what maximum do you want to achieve? Use the following example to calculate your approximate needs: Speakers rated at ___db @ 1 watt/1 metre require a doubling of power to achive every 3 db gain. If you start with speakers at 90 db @ 1 watt/1 metre, those speakers will require approximately 512 watts each to achive 117 db of sound @ 1 watt/1 metre. Consider the listening area is farther than 1 metre and make an adjustment accordingly (1 would guess -5 to -10 db). Keep in mind their capacity for power also and don't forget your listening environment. A small room will need less power than a very large one. Good luck & have fun. Regards, Stuf> ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

As with any setup, give it a try and see how it sounds in your unique listening environment. Good Luck. Regards, Stu f>------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

What the hell R U talkn bout? ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

Textf> Miron88: I don't believe you'll be sorry going the efficient Klipsch route. Having said that, Paradigm is certainly no slouch. You need to seriously consider dumping the Klipsch Sub for the Paradigm PW2200. Very musical yet also great for HT. Get's way down to 18hz and is unbelieveably priced. Read some reviews and more importantly try one out in your listening environment. I use one with my Heritage setup and am VERY happy. Good luck. Regards, Stu ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

Clapton BB King Stevie Ray Vaughn Brian May (Queen) Bonnie Rait Liona Boyd Cramer Sansregret Farf Ranburger ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

Definitely 1975. ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

Textf>I've also been bitten by the tube bug. Currently running a warm sounding Marantz SR800 receiver for my 2 channel audio (& HT). I really like this amp but wonder what the SS crowd is missing. I must admit there's a certain nostalgia involved that I find appealing. Almost like antique cars or old Harleys. What intrigues me is how good the 50's & 60's technology really was and how it still stands up today. Kinda like Heritage KLipsch. My purchase won't be any time soon. I need to formulate opinions and some knowledge about tubes before I dive in. I'd prefer to make the right purchase the first time as the wife may not give me a second chance. What testers do I need, what set is best (all things considered, including price). Integrated vs. seperates Etc, etc.. Just what the hell is a monoblock anyway? Can anyone point me in the right direction for this type of research. So far I've stuck mainly to this board. Regards, Stu ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

Oops. sorry wrong thread. ------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW220 Sub Subwoofer (18 hz) Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B

HalfD: You should consider what your priority in listening will be. Do you value 2 channel audio as well as HT? Will you use the receiver for both? What main speakers are you driving? If they're Klipsch, there's a tendancy for brightness and even harshness especially in 2 channel mode. The Marantz is one beautiful match to tame that harshness. It's great for HT and shines for 2 channel audio (and what a great remote). Give Marantz, and others, a listen in your environment B4 you make your decision. Regards, Stu

I have not heard either of these subs so I really can't comment on them. I will say the subs that regularly come up in discussions are SVS, Velodine etc.. The Paradigm PW2200 is hard (impossible) to beat for the money (great for HT and music). Try posting your question in the "Powered Subs" forum. Plently of knowledgeable people there. Regards, Stu

Keith's advise is is right on the money. Being your in no rush you can sit back a pluck them used not only from Ebay but from other online services. Keep your eyes on the classifieds also as you might find something for a steal locally. If money is an issue, your mains aill create a phantom centre channel. Therefore you might want to leave the centre till last. Just a thought. Regards, Stu

Deang: I only heard LaScalas once and it was over 20 years ago. I must admit they were VERY dynamic, however, I found them somewhat lacking on the low end and consequently they seemed a little harsh. In fairness, it was at an audio shop which lacked a proper sized room for them and I can't recall what was driving them. Probably someting that didn't complement them. As far as shouting matches go, yes the heritage speakers will deafen you if that's what you want. However, it's their ability to sound dynamically real at low levels that's most impressive. I realize you just layed out big bucks for your RF7's and the thought of them not "measuring up" to 30 year old speakers is not only hard for you to believe but it's also something that not many in your position would want to think, let alone admit. Don't worry. We heritage fans feel your pain as evidenced in your posts. Those reference speakers are GREAT!!! Really. I hope you enjoy them for generations to come. Regards, Stu

OOOOOH......"Ceramatelic". That is a great marketing catch phrase (still no new "technologies though). Holy crap where do they some up with these. I'll still put a 1960's or 70's Khorn (or any other large Heritage speaker) up against anything in the Reference series. But let's face it some people would argue Bose rules. Dynamic realism = Heritage....end of story. Are they revealing?....Yup...Are they accurate and brutally honest?...Yup. As a result do they expose a poor front end or bad recording?....You bet they do. That's why they're the great speakers they are and that's why true audiophiles love them so much. If you love the reference series that's great (I won't disparage them) (sp). However, they are nothing like the Heritage series. It's like comparing apples to oranges(with all due respect) Regards, Stu

quote: Originally posted by TheEAR: This one is damn good... :Something to think about: You should thank God for Reference - because it is the sales of Reference which will allow Klipsch to resurrect your beloved earbleeders" Take cover the flame wars start anew TheEAR(s) Now theears Good analogy. Reference speakers are to Klipsch what the K-Car was to Chrysler. Well.........maybe not.

Deang. Maybe you or someone else can enlighten me on new speaker "technologies". Yes they use "free range" "oxygen free" copper wire. Cool catch phrase but they're really reaching for something here. Is there really any new way of creating sound? The basic mechanics remain unchanged. We've had dome tweeters, ribbon tweeters and electrostatic for years. Of course there's the folded horn (what am I missing?). But what's really ground breaking new? I'm not aware of anything. Can someone please shed some light? The heritage line has been produced since the 50's. That MIGHT be the reason they out number the new line which has been out since when? Last year was it? I'm sure there will be many Bose speakers (yuk) and other more worthy brands that with proper care will last several decades. Klipsch Heritage are not the only worthy speaker but they are one of the most saught after for a reason. Prices are more than they were new for a reason. The new Klipsch line is very very good indeed. Times have changed and mass production is simply a reality of todays shareholder profit driven world (not that PWK didn't want to make a profit). It's just that he made the decisions not a board of directors who answered to greedy shareholders. Klipsch could go back to quality enclosures and handrubbed finished but the product would simply be price prohibitive for the majority of consumers. They've simply done what was necessary to survive and I can't blame them for that.

TheEars. Great review on the CornBreadWalls. "They have Soul" You might consider a career in writing for an stereo publication. Just kidding (couldn't resist, sorry). Sorry if I stepped, no jumped, on your toes (you spelt thing just fyne. ) Threats of physical violence? Good come back. That's great The pen REALLY is mightier than the sword. Your a real "in your face" kind of poster and I like that. Keep it up. Regards, Stu