Quiet_Hollow

Mike I'm gonna ask a question that's a little off-topic, but I'm interested in what you mean by this. Could you have listen to some of the videos on my channel (through headphones of course) and tell me if you hear any of what you describe? https://www.youtube.com/user/TerdFurg3zon

Yes, I even remember the first web page I ever visited.

One of the biggest and baddest subwoofer shootouts occurs every year in Milwaukee, WI. It's called Summerfest. No where else can someone experience such a wide variety of subwoofers in an environment free of small room acoustics and other common variables. From big name high-dollar, high-power touring rigs all the way down to Guitar Center rental units and DIY in the hands of weekend warriors....Driven by industry experts all the way to clueless, drunk roadies. You can hear and see it all...talk to the operators to get their opinions straight from the horses mouth of those that get paid for a living doing it. Most of all, gain an appreciation for the power, response, and SPL's required for the variety of stages...from sidewalk performers all the way up to the huge amphitheater. Highly recommended if you can make it up there. Bring an SPL meter, earplugs and an open mind. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerfest

There's also the caveat of available wall power. Just because I can plug in the latest Lab Gruppen or Powersoft megawatt trophy amp, doesn't necessarily imply the full potential of the hardware is available. Plenty of accounts of peoples' systems still falling prey to being current limited the hard way....tripping breakers if they haven't shelled out the coin for improved or dedicated circuits. Fun, fun. Even my "meager" 300 watt system dims all the lights when it's first switched on. Power is cheap, sure, but there are still practical limits.

Too many variables, like the human factor for one. In regards to a shootout scenario, I'm in agreement with Derrick in that with adequate performance capability (primarily SPL & Total Distortion), the audible comparison become difficult to point out at best. Enough is usually enough....no matter how impressive. The biggest differences being what it takes physically between designs to achieve "adequate" performance and complexity of setup. Measure enough systems and the data will eventually show that performance envelopes exist for every design regardless of manufacturer, component group, or MSRP.

It's also worth mentioning that yes, power is cheap but, Power in also = pissed of neighbors.

They also indicate that as of present, there haven't been enough production horns tested. I'd like to see genuine representation from JBL, EAW, EV, Martin, Funktion-One, Klipsch, and Danley's DBH 218 on that list. Too much DIY.

Merry Christmas everyone, and many blessing to you all this coming New Year!

Piezo pickups affixed to the soundboard are a god send in that regard. They yield an extremely intimate recording when DI'd....hair-raising Unfortunately, many people either don't know or simply won't use them for the application.

From my library: and Thomas Newman: and who can forget:

At this point, I highly recommend the use of an SPL meter and pink noise to investigate your sound field and listening positions if you feel you have a problem.

Those are bi-poles. They only work as designed when mounted to the immediate flanks of the listening position (90 degrees). They sound like one is disappearing (as you have them mounted) because they in-fact do not radiate any sound along their plane of symmetry.

At my last place I had the THT slim dialed in for 117 dB SPL capability across the listening position from 18 Hz up to crossover. During any movies it never saw past 20V. 15" wide THT, Dayton 310-88, 1/4 space in-room, measured with AS-EQ1, LPF@35Hz, EQ'd ±3dB Our new place has a bigger listening room so more cabinet is in order to accomplish the same. I'll be doubling up the current cab soon, with the likely hood of two more low profile versions in the coming year.

This: Here's Tuba HT's accomplishing the same thing:

They are. The elephant in the room is that this has always been the case....just that 40 years of marketing has most people convinced otherwise. Yes. As far as any system is concerned, there is no delineation. The system is either capable or not, regardless of method. There is no more requirement for sub bass in todays music than there was in early live organ recordings. Not to imply the content is the same, just that required system capability is. I agree with Steve on this. Most serious HT owners I've met want/need both. Movies are comprised of both music and effects. Contrary to popular belief, if a particular system sucks at music then it just plain sucks. It's a two-way street. A smoother plot is not better in this case. The "ski-slope" is formally the roll-off rate below Fb (the box resonant frequency) or Fc (The horn cut-off frequency)...and it's the same rate for both a sealed box and front-loaded horns. Thirdly, at 15 Hz the horn still has more output. Every dB counts, even if it's a fraction of one. That is, after all, what we're really paying for. Completely over-rated IME....even for music. My findings are that the spectrum that's encoded in most action movies of the last two decades is completely unrealistic. Hollywood has got that all wrong....and yes, the right horn can definitely get there. But... Truth is the TRW-17 simply owns everything below 30 Hz, and I personally wouldn't consider anything else knowing this technology is out there. It cannot be stressed enough, these things have an established reputation for breaking entire homes and pissing off entire neighborhoods. Performance that is completely off the charts. This argument only holds water so long as we completely ignore what a direct radiator is doing under the same circumstances. It's an absolute mess down there where equivalent dynamic drivers are concerned, across the board. At least the horn has some degree of composure. This should be the biggest selling point for a good front-loaded horn as they can be completely seamless. But often times people mess it up, then blame the horn. I could go on for days.... There's literally reams of data on this stuff compiled over the last 80 years. It's not new. One person's experience (or even two or three) isn't going to cut the mustard. A lot of really good people have been working on this stuff for decades. Maybe, just maybe, they were on to something. * edited for spelling

My main argument stems from just what a single horn sub can accomplish, and the reliance upon just one or two assemblages of incomplete data for justification otherwise. The treatment of the topic, like this is some how ground breaking discussion, is just absurd....along with the insinuation that a few of us don't know what we're talking about, and are "missing the point". The data is already there. The Klipsch library, papers by JBL, Toole, Geddes, Leach, Allen, books by Yamaha....yet people instead insist on cherry picking (what are essentially) editorials by industry armchair quarter backs. Maximum acoustic power across the bandwidth, IMD, impulse response, phase response measured for compare....it's all been hashed out already. Flat out ignoring all that research under the recent context is going to cultivate some pushback. Try a few days out in the 2-channel and Tech/Mod sections for example. There's more horn users than we can shake a stick at there. Only in this section as of late, and for whatever reason, is the use of the direct radiator being held sacred. The Tuba HT (THT for short...not to be confused with a Tapped Horn) is a great sub, over ten years in the making. I was very close to taking home a Danley DTS-20 or two back in '05, until I saw the charts for the Tuba HT. Haven't looked back since. I experienced the TRW-17 subwoofers for the first time in '07 and again in '10....and represent only a smattering of the large coin systems I've been privy to over the years. Between large horns and those fans, I find it rather diffucult to get excited about hoarding (and subsequently powering) a pile of large dynamic drivers.

You need to come over my place. We'll have a talk about about horn subwoofers and numbers.

Yes, but if doing so for the express purpose of driving a set of Palladiums, I'd highly recommend the 105 over the 103. The 105 is equipped with a better performing (compared the 103) analog pre-amp section, just for the likes of what you intend to do.

...and only in the mid-bass and bass ranges. 115 dB SPL at anything above 300 Hz parts an entire FOH like the Red Sea. Seen it happen in person. Very unpleasant experience.

For sure on the Quintets. ...Another all-in-one option is that Yamaha makes one helluva nice phased array sound bar (their 5600 projector series). Not exactly peanuts though. $$$

That's due to their somewhat realistic specifications.

<music, geek rant> In pop music, I have difficulty with the "stu-stu-stuttering" on purpose...or the blatant repeating of a stupid word. If they can't end a phrase exactly on the beat, then it's time to dig into the creative hat and pull out a new lyric or change the beat. But I find it really tasteless to simply repeat the same word into oblivion. What the hell is a studio good for? Repeating a lyric is a powerful gesture....when the lyric actually bears substance. In addition, I really miss editing and/or critical peer review before publishing. A chorus should never repeat more than twice. I find a lot of music from the late 90's forward that I could trim down to just a minute or two simply because the introductions take for-ev-er or they're singing the same thing over and over and over. Progressive intros certainly do have a time and place, but not everything has to be maximally progressive all-the-time. On the backside of that, an entire industry could be made out of offering consulting services to musicians on fine art of "closing" a song. For example, the fade-out (made popular in the late 70's) was never acceptable in my book....same with droning on for 2-3 minutes extra. IMO, most music isn't cool enough for that....even classical. </rant>

Well, this place is about as far removed from face-to-face conversation as it gets. If you care to enlighten me on the above comment, please just shoot me a PM.