HDBRbuilder

The old SS vs. Tube debate will never die out. That's for sure....but...in the end, it all boils down to what sounds good to the owner, as is the case for any type of audio equipment. I have used a Harman/Kardon 900+ (bought new in 1975) for over a quarter century and love how it sounds through my heritage models. I also love how a Dynaco Stereo 400 model of the same vintage works with them. Both of these are high quality items, but vintage ones. The point here is that they are vintage and HAVE held up well through that same quarter century as has the other equipment I purchased back then...which brings me to the point that QUALITY is a very important consideration in a purchase. Reputation of the manufacturer for its quality should be considered. Fact is, there are differences between different tube amps just as there are differences between SS ones in what the listener hears coming out of the speakers. Differences also may be found not only between different models from the same manufacturer, but also between each separate amp of that model...each one being a single entity. When making a purchase the best way to decide is to give the equipment a try in the listening environment of the potential user, since that is where the equipment will ultimately end up. If it sounds the way you want it to sound in that environment, then the spec sheet can be thrown out the window, and the purchaser will be a grinning happy camper. Those who rely solely on specs and the name of the manufacturer for purchases sometimes end up losing alot of money over the years through trying to find the "perfect" piece of equipment to give them "that sound" where they listen to it most. "Let your ears decide"

TBrennon, As for our opinions, we all have them and that is what makes each of us unique. As for my last posting I was referring "toungue in cheek" to the various offerings-up by the "horn nay-sayers" over the years and how they consistently used the K-horn as a reference for comparison to justify their beliefs that a horn had been defeated by the "new kid on the block" non-horn-loaded speaker... but this new kid on the block never seemed to be around long, constantly changing, whereas the comparison point the "horn nay-sayers used over the last half century is still around. Whether or not we believe that the K-horn is the best of the horn-loaded speakers around is our own opinions, but we DO agree that the horn is a superior reproducer of sound... which was my point.

"Klipsch, a Legend in Candlestands"

Dan, No problem....isnt't this what we are all here for?...to ask questions, answer questions, give our opinions, and generally enjoy ourselves reading all of this and being part of a mutual harassment society that loves Klipsch speakers? That's why I'm here, you?

Lynnm, re: "Admittedly, most twenty five year old turntables would be crap now just because they were crap when they left the factory" 25 years ago was 1977, and admittedly, from that time FORWARD... there were fewer and fewer turntables being offered with high quality for a variety of reasons: the bad U.S. economy (trust me, we were the world's largest consumer of home electronics back then too), the advent of CD's, the tendency of manufacturers to cut quality in order to cut costs so a product would move, etc. BUT, for a short period during the five or six years prior to that, some of the very best turntables ever made were produced" Empire Troubadour, Thorens TD 125, and others from the aging belt-driven fleet were still high tech standards striving to survive against the new tech arrivals into the marketplace that were not only promising to improve upon the performance of the established "Kings of the Hill," but living up to those promises. Enter the direct-drive heavyweights from Japanese and other manufacturers firmly establishing a reputation for reliability and shaking the foundations of the industry, with a burning desire to steel a crown for themselves and a sizeable chunk of sales with their lower prices. Technics introduced its SL110, a direct-drive designed to be a giant killer, with half the wow and flutter of the standards of the day, 3-8 dB less rumble, and precison speed control and adjustments...designed to accept the audiophile Micro, Ortofon, and SME tone arms of the time...this was followed within a few months by its bigger brother SL120, then a few months later were introduced the first of Technics' complete models based on these...the SL1100, the SL1200, and the SL1300. The race was on!!!!!, and the cartridge manufacturers jumped onboard...with a healthy shove by the advent of the short-lived CD-4/Discrete era which pushed cartridge technology to its limits.... SOOOOOOOOOO... Let's not be too hasty in our judgements of the quality of turntables from that time period, please. (I write this as I sit here listening to CD-4 vinyl recording of Jethro Tull, Aqualung playing on my Technics SL 1300 turntable bought in 1975, with JVC CD-4 cartridge with shibata nude stylus running the signal through the CD-4 demodulator in my Harman Kardon 900+ receiver and coming out of my Heresys)

They'r mine, Mine, MINE!!!!!!!(wringing fingers, hands, and arms with a lunatic glare)

Dan, I would have to reply to your question in this manner: I was never a "designated K-horn builder", nor was I a "designated LaScala OR Belle Klipsch builder". To explain this: The LaScala, Belle Klipsch, and Klipschorns, in that ascending order, required the skillful fabrication of a number of parts and sub-assemblies, prior to these parts and sub-assemblies being finally assembled into the final loudspeaker cabinet(in the case of the LaScala) or sections (in the cases of the Belle Klipsch and Klipschorn) Those individuals who had been there longest tended to become the "designated" builders who used these parts and sub-assemblies for the Klipschorn and Belle Klipsch cabinets, with those there the absolute longest gravitating to the Belles. But that in no way took away from the requirement that the parts and sub-assemblies had to be fabricated with the same attention to detail as the final assembly of the cabinets. In other words, the final assemblers of the cabinets depended on the builders of their sub-assemblies to do the job right, or else the cabinets would not go together. Whenever a new employee was assigned to the cabinet shop, they went thru a break-in phase that allowed them to progressively move up from "tailing" the tablesaw for simple rips/crosscuts, pre-drilling the parts and minor sub-assemblies using jigs, and learning to operate the overhead router. This got them used to how even the simplest of tasks required in the building of the speakers required alot of attention to detail. It also gave the foreman an opportunity to see, through observation and close monitoring of progress, whether the new employee was capable of handling responsibility "on his own" and could be trusted to consistently provide quality work. From this point, if an employee "showed progress," he was allowed to "try his/her hand" at more difficult jobs involved in building the sub-assemblies up. If no progress was made, the employee would be either relegated to the simpler assemblies, be the helper in the building of less complicated cabinets under the tutelage of an experienced builder, or moved to another department to see how well he/she did there...eventually ending up in shipping boxing up speakers if no ability was found...then "out the door!!" if the employee just couldn't do anything right....hey....YOU ASKED!!!LOL! Every effort was made to retain an employee, but some people are just worthless and don't care...what can I say? If the employee remained in the cabinet shop and showed promise, he/she ended up building sub-assemblies and helping in the final assembly of "D" style Heresy. If the Lead-man building those saw promise in the employee, then he/she was allowed to be helper in assembly of Cornwalls. From there the employee may graduate to non-decorator style heresy, or LaScala...OR end up becoming Lead-man when building "D" style heresy and Cornwalls...according to need. I have built LaScalas, when the need arose to "catch-up" in that area and I had plenty of "D" style heresys and both type of Cornwalls built-up to keep the sanders busy for a few days...but never was a "designated LaScala builder". I have "assisted" in the building of K-horns and Belles, too, but was never a "designated builder" of them....even though you have to know how to build them in order to assist... After all, for over 6 of the 7 years I worked there, I was the "main man" on decorator heresys and all of the Cornwalls...and that was a key to the positioning of newer employees into other jobs....If they couldn't keep up with me, then they didn't have much hope to advance...LOL!...alot of em didn't, either. I also built alot of the large theater speaker systems, including sub-assemblies...called the MCM1900 System at that time..of which the woofer section is still in the line-up today...the MWM...but it appears that the squawker, sub-squawker, and tweeter cabinets for that system are not in the line-up anymore. Actually I always hated building the MWM's because of the crawling around on em on your knees to nail on the top and bottom...but I did do it!!!...LOL! So, to answer your question in another way, even though I never was a "designated builder" for Klipschorns, Belles, or LaScalas, I did build them... Is that what you were asking?...(Sorry, that was a loaded question you gave me) P.S. In addition to the MCM1900 System, I built an awful lot of the industrial "slant" heresy stage monitors...Boy!!!, they were alot of fun, LOL!

As a historian, it is funny to keep seeing a different version of the same thing over the years: 1950: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever was the high dollar "best in the world" speaker that year) 1960: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever was the high dollar "best in the world" speaker that year) 1970: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever was the high dollar "best in the world" speaker that year) 1980: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever was the high dollar "best in the world" speaker that year) 1990: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever was the high dollar "best in the world" speaker that year) Today: Comparison of the Klipschorn to (whatever is the high dollar "best in the world" speaker this year) Isn't it strange that one side of this equation remains constant for over half a century, while the other doesn't? "The purpose of history is to learn about the mistakes in the past so as not to repeat them"

How to deal with the "horn nay-sayers": 1. Sit them down in the sweet spot in front of some good ole heritage models. 2. Turn on the system. 3. Take out a CD (or vinyl if that is your preference) of "Kenny Loggins with Jim Messina Sittin' In"(their first album) 4. Play the song "House at Pooh Corner" 5. While it is playing gradually increase the volume upwards, but not too uncomfortably for them...then gradually decrease the volume until it can barely be heard...then gradually go back to normal listening level. Watch their facial expressions for signs of enlightenment. 5. After they have listened to it, act like a citizen from Missouri (ie., tell them "SHOW ME!!!") This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 04-21-2002 at 02:33 PM

Difference between a dealer and an "unauthorized dealer" or outlet?: A dealer "DEALS" with you...from your initial outlay to problems if/when they occur, they tend to have a mindset that you will be a return customer for at least some part of your system as you upgrade, so they treat you accordingly. Also, if you have questions or need assistance with set-up, etc...they are normally a good source for advice/help. IMHO, for NEW equipment, always go with the dealer!!!...especially if they have a great reputation and are well-established!!! (And this is coming from somebody who bought a pair of used lascalas on eBay last nite?....Sheesh!!!...LOL!)

Like Silverfox said...no splices...just one continuous cable for each speaker, no matter what the length has to be, but is best if each cable is of equal length to the other, no matter what the distance to the amplication source for each speaker...IMHO.

Fini, Actually...no...I went with the Minolta XM (European distributer designation for what I believe they called either the XK or XL in North America) with the auto-electro finder and the split-screen/focusing collar screen installed (but, alas, no motordrive)...kept the SRT 102 for an extra body until Minolta came out with the XE-7, then sold the 102 to help finance the XE-7. I used to carry around two bodies...one with 3M diapositive(actually a movie type film with no leaning toward reds as in GAF or AGFA...and no leaning toward blues like Kodachrome/Ektachrome)and the other with either Ilford HP1 or Ilford HP4...depending on what I wanted to shoot and the effects I wanted, i could rapidly swap lenses and go for it with either body. My favorite lens was an early MC Rokkor 85mm with the stop-down prevue lever on it (the one with the knurled focusing ring instead of the later "rubberized" one)...especially for portraits and such...a truly delightful lens!!! I found I had no need for the standard 55mm lens, since I also carried around a Vivitar 35-105mm macro-zoom and a Vivitar 75-300mm zoom. I had a variety of fixed-length wide-angle to fisheye lenses, and gobs of filters and other toys. I really got into it for a few years until I came home one Thanksgiving day after working overtime that morning at Klipsch, and found my huge camera case with everything in it but the Auto-bellows, had been stolen along with alot of other stuff by some low-life who kicked in my back door...HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!! Now all I have is a Minolta Maxxum 7000 with 35-70mm macro zoom...but it does most of what I need to do.

Fini, How do ya think marble or granite...or maybe flagstone(for that rustic vintage "a la Fred Flintstone" look) would work out?

Q-man, I have been following this thread and enjoying not only it, but the links given in it extremely. Thanks, guys!!! You are right on the mark about building K-horns... as to diminishing returns on investment of labor (and even materials in them) in a non-mass-produced mode. An ungodly amount of time is involved in the saw set-up operations in fabrication of the parts, due to the precison of fit needed in the assembly process. With fit tolerances of 1/64th" or less required, it is also beyond the capability of many home workshop's equipment unless special jigs are made, therefore eating up even more labor-time and materials. Add to that the "scrap factor" of mistakes using costly materials, and many a home builder will end up throwing his/her hands up in the air and just buying them new...with alot of expensive material ending up as firewood. Baltic birch is now alot more expensive since the fall of the U.S.S.R. than it was beforehand. U.S. plywood manufacturers have seen to it that it stays high so that they can compete against it in the market..sad, but true!!! Either way, the complexity of the K-horn construction makes it more cost effective to purchase one new than to build one...unless...one plans to build a number of them, is willing to except little or no profit from the ones sold (if he/she can get away with it), and is a very accomplished woodworker with excellent equipment in the shop. I sincerely believe that going with kits for quality out-of-manufacture cabinets is the best idea...and the simpler the design, the better. There are alot of audiophile do-it-yourself types who don't want to spend alot of time on building a cabinet design "from scratch", but would enjoy some shop time with a kit, if its construction wasn't too difficult and the instructions were excellent...one can use the old "dynaco/dynakit" or "heathkit" successes to show that. Now-a-days, fewer folks want to sit around in the evening with a soldering pencil, but I believe there are alot of folks who still would enjoy some woodworking kit assembly. Driver cost is another factor to consider....the more expensive the driver is that must be used, the less likely the kit will be purchased. Popular Electronics may be a good venue to attempt placement of a small ad, just to see how it would fly in the early stages...it has always been geared for the do-it-yourself types...and is still read by many audiophiles and laymen with a "do-it-yourself" attitude. I honestly believe the success of a venture like this would be whether the following thought came to the mind of the potential customer: "Gee, I can build one of those in the garage without having to buy alot of big tools!!! And look, it even has a list of drivers to use in it!!! Hmmm, if I bought this driver for it, it wouldn't set me back alot of bucks and I would still get performance close to that of using this more expensive driver!!! I am gonna write for a flyer on it!!!" This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 04-21-2002 at 11:57 AM

Ed, Thanks for your input...I tend to believe it is some kind of cookie problem too, although I haven't done anything to cause it that I know of. I sure wish I could rectify it. It is a shame that a number of folks in this forum sent me messages that I can't retrieve. I hope that any of those who have sent messages to me and read this posting will opt to re-send their messages to my e-mail address, and I am sorry that this problem has caused them any grief. As for the "scalawags"....well, you can find a "before" pic of one of em below: http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=1346230788 I just hope the other one looks this good or better. The labels on the back are supposedly covered by the "carpet" too...once I get them I will be able to tell what I have to do to them to bring them back. I was assured that they were the "genuine article in excellent working condition" and the seller has made very many transactions with glowing compliments from the buyers...so I am kinda "pumped-up" about it!! Still, the fact the seller listed them as "Klipsh" (sic) instead of Klipsch has me a bit worried. From what I can tell in the pic, based on the visible part of the tweeter, the midrange horn, and the sharpness of the lines on the doghouse in the woofer section, I believe they indeed ARE the real McKlipsch!!!LOL! Anyway, when I get them I will take some good "before" pics...and plan to take a few "work in progres" pics as well as "after" pics to post for any interested. ( I sure hope that damned carpet is gonna be easy to get off of em!!!!!)...LOL! I have seen worse and made repairs on worse, I do believe!!!!

Fini, Thanks for the help, but I am still having problems. Even though I login, the site doesn't recognize me like it did a few days ago. But when I do a post, my name on here is automatically filled in for me. When I try to access my private messages, it asks me to login again. When I do login, it either goes to the message page OR it keeps asking me to login. When it FINALLY gets to my private message page, and I click on a message to retrieve it, it either boots me back asking me to login again or does nothing...weird...huh? Maybe the site thinks I didn't pay enough for those LaScalas last nite....LOL! Either way, I have yet to be able to access any of my private messages here!!! Somebody please help me!!!!!

Just an observation: Almost like reading a debate over whether (30 years ago) it was best to have a Minolta SRT-101 35mm SLR loaded with Kodak 400 ASA B/W film...or a Nikon F2S Photomic SLR loaded with Ilford HP4 400 ASA B/W film(which could be pushed to 600 ASA with no developer adjustments required and still gave finer grain than the Kodak film did)....LOL! Just kidding...as one who hopes to be adding a nice digital camera to his "stuff" in the near futire, this has been a pretty good informative read...thanks. This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 04-21-2002 at 07:44 AM

Ed, Thanks. I tend to get a little long-winded at times...and probably give out more detail than is necessary to answer questions (see?...I'm doing it again!!!..LOL!)...but I am both happy to help AND happy that my meager attempts are appreciated. You been checkin up on me huh?...LOL! Well, I just hope the seller is sure of what it is I bought...a bit worried since they didn't spell Klipsch right....but I e-mailed em a few days ago asking some questions and the answers were more or less what I wanted to hear...hell, back in '81 the price for a pair to employees at 40% of list was two hundred bucks more than that!!! I dunno how much they are worth today, but I figure I got a pretty good deal on em...supposedly they are in "perfect working order"...and once I get that damned carpet off of em and see what I have to do to bring em back to original, I will let ya know...I DO have 11 sheets of the same kind of plywood in storage if I have to rebuild the cabinets or just build some new ones...look like they are LSBB's with the rounded over edges from what I can tell...they didnt appear to have handles on sides, so probably not industrial ones...who knows?!!!! I will let ya know about em tho!! By the way, last week somebody had some industrial fiberglass ones with the metal corners and trim for sale there...wonder how much they sold for? Somebody else is tryin to sell his home-made ones with no horns, but instead some cone speakers in the top end right now...the bidding is already at what I paid for mine, and hasn't even reached the reserve he set yet...as far as I am concerned, they aren't worth any more than the cost of the wood in them...if that much!!!! Even if the woofer section is made right and can accept mounting of Klipsch woofer, the top end will have to be rebuilt to accept the rest of the Klipsch components...alot of work to do all of that...too much if ya ask me, considering that his reserve hasnt even been met yet!!! Somebody is gonna get taken on that deal...BIGTIME!!!! Long Live Klipsch Heritage!!!!!

for home audio Email: Support@klipsch.com for promedia Email: promedia@klipsch.com or promediatech@klipsch.com tell em what ya need, model of speaker, and serial number of speaker...ask for price + shipping and go from there.

Sounds to me like what you are lookin for is one of those wall-mount TV stands (like ya see in alot of hospital rooms), but with a smaller base to it...maybe you can look at Best Buy, Lowe's, or Home Depot, buy one for a small tv...and modify the shelf or replace it with a wooden one...or screw a wooden one to it after cuttin it down some with a hacksaw...add some high grade WIDE stick-on velcro to top of shelf and bottom of speaker....SERIOUS VELCRO!!!!not the little stuff....they have it at Lowe's and Best buy in different width strips and strengths. They all have ability to swing from side to side, the base swivels and is adjustable to different angles up and down and can be locked into position, and most of em can slide up or down at the wall mount some...check it out. Some are made for provision for a VCR or DVD player to mount below the tv too...but you won't need that...just look around for the 13" tv ones. They outta work out ok...or with relatively little modification. Hope this works for ya!!!! Good Luck!!!

John, The "F" you found stamped in the plys was sander code for Frances Hale....she did a helluva lot of LaScalas...and was the sander of choice when an employee bought a pair. I have no idea what the other codes were. If you look closely around those "F"s, you may find another faint stamp or one that has been filled in with wood putty...that would be the builder code. Like I said, I don't know all the codes for all the builders, but I do know some of them. Hope this helps some.

Klipschguy(Andy), Thanks, glad you are still enjoying your Cornwalls after their having been around a quarter of a century. I always took pride in my quality of assembly...my father raised us up according to: "Any job worth doing is worth doing right." re: your comment about "blowing out the carbon", another PWK anecdote comes to mind: Back in the days when vinyl was king, PWK was noted for leaving his volume set at his normal listening level as he rubbed his finger across the turntable stylus to clear it of any dust...with a resounding "WHOMPWHOMPWHOMPWHOMP" coming from the speakers. Most audiophiles of that era disdained this practice, believing it was hard on amplifier and woofer. PWK's response to this was "Bullsh*t, it's good for these speakers...it knocks the dust off the woofers." This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 04-20-2002 at 08:34 PM

Klipschguy(Andy). Thanks for the clarification. Duly noted. Not sure if those are presently available, but will ask when the time comes(if it comes).

Soundjunkie, re: "Am I asking to much?" In a word, yes! This thread was begun as an informal survey on bringing back the Cornwall, which would mean utilizing the same configurations and interior components that were previously employed. No extensive R&D or major modifications to the basic Cornwall design are a part of this return of a classic speaker. Your comments and suggestions are duly noted. Maybe someone, or some entity, will note your comments in this thread and deign to produce such a speaker. Or, maybe another visitor to this BB will see this posting and have the ability to help you in constructing a design of this type for your personal use (there are many very skilled and knowledgable individuals frequenting this forum). Let's hope so. Again, thank you for your input.

HornEd, After reading your last posting, and spending about 20 minutes with my Webster's and an English grammer book, I found myself blushing. I haven't seen language like that used in so small a space since I found myself engrossed in the greeting card secion of a Hallmark store during a temporary "mind-altered state" over 20 years ago!!!....just kidding...LOL! I am happy that some of the readers here are enjoying my postings, and more than happy to help-out in any way I can...glad you are one who is enjoying my often long-windedness. Klipschguy(Andy), Your comments are appreciated and duly noted. OF COURSE the resurrected Cornwalls would HAVE to use the original Klipsch-type components...or else how could they be called Cornwalls?...I would never even consider using any other components in them!!!