moparrob Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I just got done rebuilbing the crossovers in my 78 Klipschorns and KLF-20's with Bob Crites sonicaps. Both pair's of speakers now sound kind of bright. There is a high end ring,especially with SACD's. I seem to have lost some of the warmth of my Mcintosh amps. Is there a burn in time for the new cap's or am I just too accustomed to the old laid back sounding cap's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Burn in is a less than popular subject here on the forums, however I have found many caps seem harsh immediately after installation, then after a day or two all is fine. I know this makes no sense what so ever, because it takes only milliseconds to fully saturate these caps, but thats how I percieve them. I find Sonicaps far better sounding than the old oil fillled cans that PWK used. Give yourself some time to let your ears adjust, I think you will find the rebuild to be a worthy upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmannnnn Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 IMO caps will 'burn in' over a period of time or change their character. I don't think it is a process that takes hundreds of hours like many folks do. I think it happens rather quickly. However, I believe that most of the brightness or harshness many people experience after replacing older or poor quality caps can be attributed to increased detail. Your ears are very accustomed to the sound of 30 year old caps and the extra information coming through the new caps is being perceived as something out of place or just wrong. 30 year old caps may be laid back or they may just be plain shot. I've never used the Sonicaps, but from all the reports I've read, they will most likely be brighter than oil caps which are known to have the more laid back sound. I'm sure you will be at least a little happier with the results in a week. Keep listening to them and let us know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 You mau need to look into installing a P-Trap (notch filter) in line with your mid drivers. There are different values...these are wired in series with the mid driver inductor+capacitor+driver. Values range from .1mh+3uf to .23mh+4uf, .1mh+3uf being the most common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 You may need to look into installing a P-Trap (notch filter) in line with your mid drivers. Good call Fritz, maybe a .34mh after the autoformer in series with the mid + to roll off around 5k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daleh Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I don’t know if these use the same drivers as my 82’ khorns but I found too much overlap in the 4k to 6k range with the stock values of the AA crossover. I ended up crossing the tweeter higher more like the AK and using the bridge cap trick to make the slope steeper and kill the 3.3k resonance of the tweeter at the same time. Rolling the squawker off lower as suggested would probably be better if you have the older one that’s not soldered on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlb945 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 For what it is worth, I've upgraded my 78 Klipshorns four times with the following observations ... 1. Upgrading only the capacitors in original crossovers ... no great change in character with the exception of a little more upper-mid definition. There was no change during the first 30 or so hours then, the upper-mids opened up. Slightly better imaging but little or no change in depth. 2. Upgraded using the ALK design with low-cost caps and coils ... started out really harsh and remained so during the first 20 hours. Within the harsh presentation, the image improved with much better definition. After 100 or more hours, the harshness remained but the image depth increased. Used the preamp treble control to reduce harshness. 3. Upgraded using the ALK design with recommended high-end caps and coils ... started out with mild harshness and remained so during first 20 hours. During the 20 hours and up to about 100 hours, the image depth increased and the space around instruments became more evident. 4. Discovered the p-trap on this forum and built a pair using high-end caps and coils ... WOW! My mid-driver has the push-down terminals and the p-trap did the trick. What I thought was harshness was no longer there. I am now into about 200 hours on the ALK with associated p-trap and the Klipschorns now make beautiful music regardless of the source. I drive the Klipshorns with a Conrad Johnson MV-75A1 with updated power supply caps and several updated signal caps. The preamp is a Marantz 7T with updated power supply and updated signal caps. This setup is quite dynamic with a 3D image that begins about 5 feet into my 20X22 room and expands back through the wall to a depth dictated by the recording. Vinyl gives a better 3D image than CDs. Conclusion: The 1978 Klipshorns with Atlas push-down terminals may sound a little harsh with an improved crossover. The p-trap talked about in other forums does work and is not too costly to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I can only imagine the expletives Al would use if you told him you added a P-trap to his network. I don't think Max cusses, but he might be tempted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 You guys should realize that I do monitor this forum even though I don't participate actively any more. The "P trap" does NOT belong in my Universal network and will only serve to "F" it up! It's a poor step toward my extreme-slope designs and Max would agree. All the "P-trap" does is "notch out" 9 Khz. My Universal cuts that by 7 to 8 dB without it. My ES5800 KILLS it dead. Harshness is the K400 horn! Dean, As to expletives, They aren't worth the effort! AL k. I'm GONE again.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capo72 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 AL k. I'm GONE again.. That's too bad. I've learned alot from your posts, and was glad to see you post this. Good to know your still watching at least! Jeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Good to see you post AL even if it is only once in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Harshness is the K400 horn! Which is why I went with an A/4500 (nostalgia and I'm getting to the "old fart" level...) and and a gasket isolated 401 (motor board and the brace) on the last K'horn restore project. The crossovers (BEC) used all new components, and during the first hour of so, were pretty "bright", but settled in. I would say that any burn in is a combination of every electrical connection and component during the "fire it up" process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalogWave Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I'm GONE again.. ..who was that Masked Man?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlb945 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 I appreciate the notes from Dean and Al. I did understand that all the "P trap" does "notch out" the frequencies at about 9 Khz but, that's exactly what I wanted and needed. I've been playing these horns since 1980 and never regretted the purchase, just the occasional harshness. I even tried new diaphrams in the squawker without much change. Now the question is ... "Is there a change in sonic character with the P trap in place compared to Al's Universal design without it?" You bet there is and I like it. The Klipshorns belong to me as do the crossovers which allow me to make any changes I want any time I want to do them with or without expletives from others. Take it easy guys ... this is all about having fun. I'm having fun and hope others on this forum are having fun as well. >>>Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I need to make one further comment, a retraction of sorts. I put the "P-Trap" into the squawker output of my Universal network and did a computer analysis on it. My hat's off to Max Potter. It didn't screw it up at all! It worked quite well. You need to put it right in the squawker output of the network though. Al K. I'm out'a here.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Did you check the phase response? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Phase shift is 0.6 Deg at 400 Hz, 21 Deg at 6000 Hz. I don't think that will matter. Al K. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Good to hear from you Al K. Wm McD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Ya, welcome back!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moparrob Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 Well it's been two weeks of listening since I installed the new Sonicap's and either the cap's burned in or my ears did.The harshness seemed to calm down after a few days but didn't go away.The upper end still overpowered the bass witch wasen't the case with the old caps. The only way I could comfortably listen to them was to turn the bass trim up about 4 notches. This may also have something to do with the very large listening room with cathedral ceilings that I have them in. After reading all the posts about P-traps i decided to give them a try. I built P-traps with .10 Perfect Layer inductors and 3.0 Dayton Audio Percision 1% cap's. After installing a p-trap on one speaker I was instantly impesssed. The midrange blended back into the rest of the speaker. I inslalled the p-trap in the other speaker and have been enjoying music all weekend.The K-horns now sound balanced and musical but still very detailed.They are now a pleasure to listen to and I can't turn them off witch dosen't make my wife very happy. I'm just wondering if I would gain anything by useing 3.0 sonicap's in place of the Dayton's since the rest of the crossover is all sonicap's. Thanks,Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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