Deang Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 LOL, I couldn't help it. Hey, there's no free lunch, something's gotta give somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Where's the problem with vertical angles here? Only a little taller than a Khorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 It's your blue teddy bear.... gives me the heebie jeebies... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I thought it was a teddy gorilla... [*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 It is a gorilla. That is an old picture. It is out of there now. I wish I still weighed what I did in that shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Despite of the "soud theory" aspect, there are other benefits to the 4-way vs. 2-way.........just like any other engineering trade-off that must be made. Lets think about this a minute. PWK wanted a 2-way Khorn in the begining but the drivers/horns of that time were not capable of meeting his needs so he settled on the next logical approach which was a 3-way design. When he talked of improving the Khorn in the Dope From Hope papers his idea/goal was to again return the design to a 2-way. When he worked on the Jubilee once again the primary idea/goal was to create a 2-way design. Why do you think this was his goal and approach versus going to a 4-way design? I'm not saying that a 4-way design can't sound very pleasent but logic and my ears tell me if I want to get closer to the ideal horn reproducer capable of a musically accurate(and yes even pleasent) reproduction it must use well behaved drivers/horns with the absolute minimum number of crossover points. The Jubilee and other 2-ways aren't perfect but speaking for myself I would easily prefer it's tradeoffs to the audible tradeoffs of 3-way or 4-way designs. Having heard the strengths of the MWM and K402/TAD4002 for myself and IMHO based on my experiences the combination that Mark1101 has assembled has all the ingredients of a more accurate reproducer versus the opposite approach of more crossovers/drivers/horns that must add back acoustically to attempt to form an accurate reproducer. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Where's the problem with vertical angles here? Only a little taller than a Khorn. I don't see any problem with vertical angles. Actually all I see is a person who after a long search seems to be very happy with his setup.[Y] mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I wish I still weighed what I did in that shot. Hmmmm... is that caused by what you are holding in your hand? [*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Hey, wasn't this thread about Jubs or something like that? [*-)] I'm only about 10 lbs. heavier now [pi].....headed down as well now that the running weather is coming back. That pic was around Xmas 2006. Thanks for the nice comments Mike. I have worked smart to wind up where I'm at. I wish more folks would experience MWMs........they are very versatile......it can get a little lonely.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 4-way, in real life, when done carefully, and intelligently, with measuring gear, is not as detrimental as all the talk here makes it out to be. Since we are not torquing Parametric and Shelving EQ's around by plus/minus 12 db, and jamming frequencies into a driver that doesn't naturally want to do it, there are other benefits there that 2-way Quasi-Religious pratctioners don't discuss because they have never tried 4-way I use 4-ways all the time...the angle problem is pretty much just solved with distance. I think the MCM (as advertised by Klipsch) gels at around 40ft or so? A general rule of thumb I've heard thrown around is about 10x the interdriver spacing (as measured from the center of each driver), which has jived with my experiences too. You're looking at like 15-20ft for the Lascala... Now that's not to say that things can sound awesome when you sit closer (which is why I reference the Lascala), but things sounded more clear when you hit the convergance point. It's really quite dramatic and probably most easily heard outdoors where one can actually get far enough away and have the room to hear the difference. I suppose 2-way Jubs don't "converge" in most rooms either...and I really think the issue of convergance is the biggest attraction to 1-way, but of course there's other problems with that too. I might argue that we probably want our rooms to be larger anyway as that makes the room's acoustics a whole heck of lot easier to deal with too (which means sitting further back and not having to worry as much about the angles). Assuming that one has all the processing in the world to get good acoustic summation from a 4-way, you still have the issue of getting all the polars to line up (not impossible, but can't be fixed after the fact), and probably more importantly...getting the timbre of distortion to be the same. I think this is where choosing specific xover frequencies can become interesting because sometimes you can make it such that single instruments don't walk around the xover very often...or you can pick frequencies where the timbre of the instrument is divided across the xover - I dont' think I'm describing that very well. Anyways, I would suggest that the most natural xover frequency for most music is going to be in the 400-800Hz octave (and I don't say this because it's where the Jub crosses over). It's just that I can think of a lot of instruments that are either solely above that frequency range, or that the various components of their timbre are on opposite sides of that region (for instance, the snap and thud of a kick straddle it pretty well...or the twang and girth from a bass guitar). But the second you throw a xover in the 3kHz octave....yeouch. And as you go higher, you run into problems with the inter-driver spacing being so large that it forces the polars to beam in the overlap region of the xover. I think it'd be interesting to see how the acoustical centers shift around too...I've been doing some measurements lately that seem to indicate that it is a lot bigger of a problem than I originally thought (in reference to multi-way systems in PA settings). The off-axis probably isn't as crazy important in the home setting since the reflection/absorption coefficients of your walls could have just as large of an impact. Again, I don't mean to imply that any of these things will make any system sound like a bose wave radio, but I also think they are clearly audible and should be avoided whenever possible. As far as all the implications that the K402/K69 isn't meant to play higher frequencies....why then is the sensitivity at 18kHz higher than the K77? [^o)] I'm going to leave it at that... [6] (however, I will mention that I'm not saying it's the best tweeter in the world, but that has nothing to do with the skewed perspectives). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I wish more folks would experience MWMs........they are very versatile......it can get a little lonely. I think the 2-way MWM sounds awesome...I would describe it as more of a raw sound than the (dare I say it) more refined sound the Jub has to offer. I think stereo subwoofage is a must for both...but then I think one should take a hard look at a straight midbass horn and avoid all the compromises associated with a folded horn. I really think it's the K402 that provides the flexibility. I would love to see an MWM redone with the Jub technology... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Since most of these speakers (and practically all other speakers, IMHO) need the help of a sub or two, they are in effect really 3-way speakers. The MAGICO Ultimate speakers are designed to be, well, the ultimate speakers, without regard to cost. They have four horns and a direct-firing low-bass woofer, making them a 5-way, and the sound is said to be amazingly realistic. So, if you have unlimited money, maybe 5-way can be made to perform to its potential. For the rest of us non-CEOs and non-lottery-winners, the 2-way, plus sub if desired, seems to works out really well. If speakers were like racing cars or motorcycles, it would be easy to say "This is the fastest, no doubt about it!", but there's so much subjectivity that measurements will only take you so far, which is why we have these endless debates. Not that debating isn't fun... [8-|] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 But the second you throw a xover in the 3kHz octave....yeouch. And as you go higher, you run into problems with the inter-driver spacing being so large that it forces the polars to beam in the overlap region of the xover. Very true. Here's a link that has pictures and formulae describing what happens: http://www.audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/11054.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chili bone Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I have not heard this theater speaker as of yet because no one will tell me the name of a theater that has one. http://www.klipsch.com/find-a-theater/ Perhaps the link will help in that endeavor. Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I suppose 2-way Jubs don't "converge" in most rooms either If by that, you mean the sound meld into a single wavefront, then "in my room" I'd suggest you are wrong. When I had my Khorns (using AlK ES networks which might have been a factor), I had to be maybe 30' away from them before they sounded utterly fantastic. I stumbled onto that rather accidently. When I first got my Jubilees, I soon went to that same 30' spot just waiting to hear how much better they were going to sound and interestingly enough, they sounded the same at 10' that they did at 30'. Something my Khorns would not have been acused of. Right or wrong, I attribute that difference to the ES networks, the time alignment of the Dx and also going from 3-way to 2-way. I don't know which one is more responsible I just know that in fact, the Jubilees sound better while sitting in the same room, than the Khorns did while sitting in the same room and at the same time, the Khorns had a distinctly noticable improvement in sound at 30' and the Jubilees do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Perhaps the link will help in that endeavor. You're presuming he wants to hear them...[^o)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I have a 26' long room and the sweetspot seems to be around 10ft. away or less. I noticed JC found it right away also and stood about 10ft. back almost all day. I seem to always listen in nearfield with my setup. I can stand right in front of the horns and it is a full sound. I think it is very cool that you can do that with these big horns and find it so enjoyable. It sounds great at a distance to, but you don't need to "step back" at all. You get the full effect close up. I figured it was the K402 horn. I also have lascalas that I use regularly in the same room (firing from opposite end of room) and I find the sound improves with distance (like Richard mentions). Very noticeable. My Khorns were played in a shorter room and so I couldn't get back very far but I suspect I would have found the same as Richard that they required more distance as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I noticed JC found it right away also and stood about 10ft. back almost all day (speaking of when you two were here) and all this time, I thought you stood far away cause I smelled.... [^o)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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