v-trac demo impressions

[TheEvan]

Jay, can I come by for a listen...can I, can I, huh?

If I'm bowled over, it will be a longer stretch for me as I don't already have the Universals like you do. But I can always dream, plan & scheme, can't I?

[jcmusic]

Rudy don't be that way!!! find a way to get them!!!

Evan you can come whenever you are ready!!!

Jay

[Rudy81]

Jay: I'm just happy for you. I know how nice the BMS drivers are. For now, I have opted to go with Al's Trachorns x3. When I considered the V-trac, I had to figure a cost of three horns and three drivers for my HT system. I probably watch more movies with the family than just listening to music. So, having a timbre matched front array is very important to me.

The good news is that my vocals and mid range has improved overall. However, there is something about the BMS driver that makes it that much better. I'm no expert, but I believe the wider frequency capability of the BMS makes a huge difference. It is also a much better driver by quite a bit. The BMS is much more refined and elegant than the K55 as one should expect. I have not listened to Jubs or other competitors, but the Khorns with the V-trac are King Kong!

I truly beleive the driver in that combination makes all the difference when compared with a similar wood horn and a 1" (inexpensive) driver.

Have fun!

[jcmusic]

Rudy how right you are!!! I agree with you 100% on the drivers they are the cat's meow!!!

Jay

[jcmusic]

So what's the latest on the V-trac's? Are the people who have them enjoying them? Are you glad you spent the cash? Who has the demo's now? What were the impressions of the others who listened to the demo's? I am really enjoying my new horns and drivers, the combo has really made a difference in my listening expirence. I hope some others will be able to expirence this as well, it's worth the effort and the cash.

Jay

[Rudy81]

Too rich for my blood. I decided on getting the ALK Trachorns for my K55's. What I did do was totally rework the acoustic treatments in my room now that I can measure room response. Now that change made a huge difference for me and it only cost $300 and some sweat on my part.

Glad you are enjoying the upgrade.

[greg928gts]

So what's the latest on the V-trac's? Are the people who have them enjoying them? Are you glad you spent the cash? Who has the demo's now? What were the impressions of the others who listened to the demo's? I am really enjoying my new horns and drivers, the combo has really made a difference in my listening expirence. I hope some others will be able to expirence this as well, it's worth the effort and the cash.

Jay

Lots of new customers enjoying them. I've sold two pair in the last week, both to people who did not hear the demo's. I've only got one pair left from the last batch, so I've got to make some more. The next batch will be 20 horns - 10 pair, serial #41 - #60.

Al K is designing an ES network that is specifically for the V-Trac. It crosses the horn/bass bin at 300Hz. Should be interesting.

FWIW, I'm loving my Khorns more than ever, and I have not tired of the wonderful midrange that they are producing.

The first experiment with putting the V-Trac on top of the Jubilee/Jamboree bass bins went ok, but I need to get some help testing to really be able to get a handle on the crossover situation. That's my holdup right now.

Greg

[jcmusic]

So what's the latest on the V-trac's? Are the people who have them enjoying them? Are you glad you spent the cash? Who has the demo's now? What were the impressions of the others who listened to the demo's? I am really enjoying my new horns and drivers, the combo has really made a difference in my listening expirence. I hope some others will be able to expirence this as well, it's worth the effort and the cash.

Jay

Lots of new customers enjoying them. I've sold two pair in the last week, both to people who did not hear the demo's. I've only got one pair left from the last batch, so I've got to make some more. The next batch will be 20 horns - 10 pair, serial #41 - #60.

Al K is designing an ES network that is specifically for the V-Trac. It crosses the horn/bass bin at 300Hz. Should be interesting.

FWIW, I'm loving my Khorns more than ever, and I have not tired of the wonderful midrange that they are producing.

The first experiment with putting the V-Trac on top of the Jubilee/Jamboree bass bins went ok, but I need to get some help testing to really be able to get a handle on the crossover situation. That's my holdup right now.

Greg

Hey Greg,

That's great and good news, now explain to me what and how much of an advantage it is going to be to cross the bass bin at 300hz?

Jay

[Fjd]

I’m the one having ALK design the ES300 because I believe that on my Khorns that in the mid-bass region there is an inability of my Khorn bass bin to hit 400 Hz cleanly and smoothly. I believe this to be a function of the way the bass bin was designed and you can only get so high frequency response out of it. Also, to me there seems to be a drop off and a ragged response starting out about 200 Hz upwards. Since I believe that my Khorns don’t quite make it up to the 400Hz crossover point there would seem to be a potential hole in the vital high bass/lower midrange region and a good reason to crossover at a slightly lower Hz (i.e. 300 Hz). Subsequently I’ve read so many positive opinions regarding the BMS-Mid 4592 drivers (including opinions outside the Klipsch community when used in DIY projects) and it seems that a 300Hz crossover point with the large V-Trac horn, and what seems to be a truly capable midrange driver in the BMS4592 would mitigate this potential hole in the high bass/low midrange region. Since I’ve now invested in the V-Trac/BMS-Mid 4592 driver combo I would rather have 300Hz and up coming from a high quality compression driver than from a bass bin with apparent limitations around 400 Hz. It may not be for everyone, but I hope that helps clarify.

[greg928gts]

I’m the one having ALK design the ES300 because I believe that on my Khorns that in the mid-bass region there is an inability of my Khorn bass bin to hit 400 Hz cleanly and smoothly. I believe this to be a function of the way the bass bin was designed and you can only get so high frequency response out of it. Also, to me there seems to be a drop off and a ragged response starting out about 200 Hz upwards. Since I believe that my Khorns don’t quite make it up to the 400Hz crossover point there would seem to be a potential hole in the vital high bass/lower midrange region and a good reason to crossover at a slightly lower Hz (i.e. 300 Hz). Subsequently I’ve read so many positive opinions regarding the BMS-Mid 4592 drivers (including opinions outside the Klipsch community when used in DIY projects) and it seems that a 300Hz crossover point with the large V-Trac horn, and what seems to be a truly capable midrange driver in the BMS4592 would mitigate this potential hole in the high bass/low midrange region. Since I’ve now invested in the V-Trac/BMS-Mid 4592 driver combo I would rather have 300Hz and up coming from a high quality compression driver than from a bass bin with apparent limitations around 400 Hz. It may not be for everyone, but I hope that helps clarify.

That's a great explanation as to why you are trying this. Al K agrees, and he also said something interesting to me:

"A 300 Hz crossover will really take advantage of the higher efficiency of the Khorn bass horn"

I'm not sure what he meant by that. The way I see it, the mid horn is more efficient than the bass horn, and putting more of a load on it (crossing lower) will better match the output of the mid horn to the bass bin. In other words, it won't have to be attenuated as much, and that's something that seems intriguing to me. I'm looking forward to hearing Al's ES V-Trac set in my own Khorns.

Greg

[Fjd]

To say it another way, I believe that ALK may be saying that by adjusting for a narrower bandwidth on the bass bin, the efficiency of the bass bin within that bandwidth increases and we can reap output gains that make the gap less between the woofer and mid horn. However, I'm not sure how the efficiency equation actually works, but we could potentially boost bass sensitivity for a better match to the upper range with less attenuation of the mid.

[greg928gts]

explain to me what and how much of an advantage it is going to be to cross the bass bin at 300hz?

Jay

I'll be able to tell you a lot more once I've heard the new ES networks.

Greg

[WPS]

Question for "canyonman"

I noticed that the BMS box said coaxial. Are you using the tweeter in the BMS?

I recently received a pair of V-Tracs, a Fc260,3 BMS drivers from Greg and am waiting in line behind Fjd for the 300Hz xovers. I think this is one of the best values I have gotten in audio equipment.

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

Yes, I am working on a 300 Hz extreme-slope crossover for use with the V-Trac horn and BSM driver. It will take me several months to get a prototype together though. The actual computer design was done several years ago with the Altec 311 horn in mind. The layout resembled the ES500 for the Belle on a single base board and was WAY to big to fit inside the Khorn. It was never built. I am working to divide it into two boards like the ES400t so that it will fit. It is going to be a tight fit!

I personally don't see and real advantage to a 2 inch horn over a 1 inch for a living room speaker system, but the larger horn and driver will allow a lower crossover. I think THIS is the true advantage of the V-Trac horn. The Khorn woofer is known to come to a response peak around 200 Hz and start to drop above that. Crossing at 400 leaves the peak there. That requires a trap to knock it down. The AK-4 network has one in it. The other way is to cross over at 300 Hz which is closer to the peak. That means you don't have to cut the squawker down as much to match the "sag" as it goes further down at 400 Hz. This should yield a smoother response withOUT an equalizer and an even more efficient speaker.

Al k.

[Al Klappenberger]

Here's the computer plot of the lowpass half of the network, The actual crossover looks like about 297 Hz. The attenuation hits 20 dB at about 329 Hz. The impedance will be the usual 6 Ohms but with a dip to about 4 Ohms at the crossover to help compensate for component losses.

Al k.

[Al Klappenberger]

The highpass half hits about 23 dB atteuation at 266 Hz.

AL K.

[greg928gts]

I noticed that the BMS box said coaxial. Are you using the tweeter in the BMS?

BMS has had some issues with their labeling on their 4592 drivers - the stickers on the backs of the drivers and the boxes. Besides the word "middle" being used on some of them, instead of the model designation "MID", I've seen the word "coaxial" on the them as well, when they are in fact only the MID version of the driver.

Do the drivers I just sent you have "coaxial" or "coax" on them? Hopefully they've gotten this straightened out. I speculate that it might have been because the MID version of the driver came out after the coax, and they didn't have boxes or stickers ready to go yet.

The way to tell is that the coax drivers have two sets of push terminals for wire connections. I don't think Jay's drivers are coax, even though they say it on the box.

Greg

[greg928gts]

I personally don't see and real advantage to a 2 inch horn over a 1 inch for a living room speaker system

You didn't think I was going to let that go, did you? []

There are a lot of ears out there that are hearing the advantages of a larger format midrange, including the Jub-heads (no disrespect intended, all in good fun).

11/16" opening on a K55.

Full 2" opening on the BMS4592.

When I first started looking into going to a larger format midrange for my Khorns, my goal was to get more of the midrange sound from the driver and less from the horn. The 2" driver really accomplishes that goal, and significantly changes the proportion of sound coming from the driver versus the horn. As an experiment, if a Khorn owner took a K55 and set it on top of their Khorn and wired it into the crossover, and played some music through the system, how do you think that would sound? If you said thin, missing a lot of the lower frequencies of the midrange, not loud enough, you'd be correct. I've set the 4592 drivers on top of my Khorns, not even in a horn, and I'm telling you, the sound quality was virtually the same as with them in the horns. Yes, there were differences, mostly having to do with the directionality of the sound, and imaging, but ALL the midrange was there. That experiment was a real ear-opener for me. That's when I knew that the larger format was making a big difference in what I was hearing in the midrange.

The same can be said for getting right up close to the mid horn when you have music playing at a low level. The difference between the sound coming from the K400/K55 and the BMS/Tractrix is night and day. Part of that is the quality of the driver, and part of it is the size.

Based on my own observations, the larger the throat, the larger the driver opening, and the larger the driver diaphragm, the closer you get to a cone-type midrange sound quality, while still maintaining the good characteristics of being a horn. What I mean by that is you are hearing the actual driver, not the sound from the driver being compressed into a small throat and spit out into the room, where the horn is doing a larger proportion of the work to produce the volume of sound from the midrange. I know I'm not using technical terms to describe this, and actually I think that's a good thing! This is from a layman's point of view. I'm just like most Khorn owners out there. I'm sitting there listening to my Khorns and trying to figure out ways to make the midrange sound less "horny", a little smoother, fuller sounding. Of all the things I've tried, from resistors to put on the midranges (that my Klipsch dealer gave me back in 1989 because I wasn't the only one asking about Khorn midrange issues), to tons of electronics; going to the larger format is the best thing I've done for the midrange in my system.

So Al, when you say you don't see the real advantage to a 2" versus a 1", I think technically you are correct. In a living room, a 1" driver/horn can very easily outperform even the most efficient bass bins, and can produce volumes in excess of anything we should be listening to, but there are advantages to the larger format that go way beyond the technical reasons for using them, and I for one am incredibly glad that I discovered those advantages while I'm still in the prime of my music listening.

Greg

[WPS]

Greg

The boxes my BMS came in also had cozxial on them. I just didn't pay attention when I opened them.

[cjgeraci]

I personally don't see and real advantage to a 2 inch horn over a 1 inch for a living room speaker system

You didn't think I was going to let that go, did you?

There are a lot of ears out there that are hearing the advantages of a larger format midrange, including the Jub-heads (no disrespect intended, all in good fun).

11/16" opening on a K55.

Full 2" opening on the BMS4592.

When I first started looking into going to a larger format midrange for my Khorns, my goal was to get more of the midrange sound from the driver and less from the horn. The 2" driver really accomplishes that goal, and significantly changes the proportion of sound coming from the driver versus the horn. As an experiment, if a Khorn owner took a K55 and set it on top of their Khorn and wired it into the crossover, and played some music through the system, how do you think that would sound? If you said thin, missing a lot of the lower frequencies of the midrange, not loud enough, you'd be correct. I've set the 4592 drivers on top of my Khorns, not even in a horn, and I'm telling you, the sound quality was virtually the same as with them in the horns. Yes, there were differences, mostly having to do with the directionality of the sound, and imaging, but ALL the midrange was there. That experiment was a real ear-opener for me. That's when I knew that the larger format was making a big difference in what I was hearing in the midrange.

The same can be said for getting right up close to the mid horn when you have music playing at a low level. The difference between the sound coming from the K400/K55 and the BMS/Tractrix is night and day. Part of that is the quality of the driver, and part of it is the size.

Based on my own observations, the larger the throat, the larger the driver opening, and the larger the driver diaphragm, the closer you get to a cone-type midrange sound quality, while still maintaining the good characteristics of being a horn. What I mean by that is you are hearing the actual driver, not the sound from the driver being compressed into a small throat and spit out into the room, where the horn is doing a larger proportion of the work to produce the volume of sound from the midrange. I know I'm not using technical terms to describe this, and actually I think that's a good thing! This is from a layman's point of view. I'm just like most Khorn owners out there. I'm sitting there listening to my Khorns and trying to figure out ways to make the midrange sound less "horny", a little smoother, fuller sounding. Of all the things I've tried, from resistors to put on the midranges (that my Klipsch dealer gave me back in 1989 because I wasn't the only one asking about Khorn midrange issues), to tons of electronics; going to the larger format is the best thing I've done for the midrange in my system.

So Al, when you say you don't see the real advantage to a 2" versus a 1", I think technically you are correct. In a living room, a 1" driver/horn can very easily outperform even the most efficient bass bins, and can produce volumes in excess of anything we should be listening to, but there are advantages to the larger format that go way beyond the technical reasons for using them, and I for one am incredibly glad that I discovered those advantages while I'm still in the prime of my music listening.

Greg

Greg, have you heard a pair of Al's one-inch throat Tractrix horns paired up with a quality one-inch driver? I only pose the question because I would expect your fine 2 inch tractrix and the BMS driver (which is a great horn and great driver combo) to sound much more open and natural than the one-inch K400 and 7/8th inch K55 (which is a #$%&* horn and poor driver combo), which often sounds like it has a bad cold. I have owned a pair of Al's one-inch tractrix wooden tractrix horns and have paired them up with some nice drivers - finally settling on Altec 902s. I would also characterize the Trachorn/902 combo as having "cone-type midrange and sound quality with the good characteristics of the horn."

That being said, I do agree that two-inch drivers provide some demonstrable advantages at higher spls, and I am honored to also have the larger throats in my system.

Al, kudos on working on the 300 hz idea. The Khorn bass bin really benefits by cutting it off lower (mine are now cut off at 250hz). In the future, your potential extreme slopes paired with Greg's horn and the BMS driver sounds like the ultimate setup for those running Khorns.

Carl.