falcon20x Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 But then again Lets just blame Thump! I don't believe anyone is blaming thump in anyways and I apologize if any of my posts made you think I was. I just think as a klipsch employee he has a better chance to bring up a problem to the company and get them to take care of it. Regarding Noah's comment: all I can say is I have shipped or received 2 RF 7 2 rf 83 2 RC 7 2 RC 64 2 RC 3 and few WSDT type speakers and I never pay that much money. No one of them were damaged but I carefully packed them. The problem I see is most people do not understand basic physics mixed with the shipping carrier process. Packing is one thing, smart packing is not the same, you can smart pack and still not spend hundred of dollars. And before anyone says anything yes I did work fo UPS and DHL AND AIRBORNE EXPRESS and I'm fully aware of the process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 I shipped an Academy to Washington State (from Indy) and a RC7 somewhere else with no damage. You're right- there is such a thing as SMART PACKING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted May 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 10, 2009 You're right- there is such a thing as SMART PACKING! Peanuts work best for shipping Khorns. [:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 TKD, If you only hear output out of one woofer this does not necessarily mean that it is damaged. The center channels for Reference Series have cascade networks. This means that one woofer crosses over lower in frequency than the second one. This allows the polar directivity to be more consistant when crossing into the horn. Thanks for the reply. AFAIK both woofers are working, but on one side the screws/housing are stripped....When I was trying to find a fix for the potential buyer, I posted a thread about it and a poster told me about a toothpick/glue/popcicle stick fix that I could do. After contacting Klipsch Customer service by e-mail and having a somewhat humorous situation I decided to blow it off until it really started bothering me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 But then again Lets just blame Thump! I don't believe anyone is blaming thump in anyways and I apologize if any of my posts made you think I was. I just think as a klipsch employee he has a better chance to bring up a problem to the company and get them to take care of it... ...No one of them were damaged but I carefully packed them. The problem I see is most people do not understand basic physics mixed with the shipping carrier process. Packing is one thing, smart packing is not the same, you can smart pack and still not spend hundred of dollars. And before anyone says anything yes I did work fo UPS and DHL AND AIRBORNE EXPRESS and I'm fully aware of the process Falcon20x, No offence taken... Since you have worked at these major distribution networks, what is your understanding of the drop tests that these companies have and why? Do they have conveyor belts that drop 4 feet? This sounds like gorella express if this is the case. Oh wait that is dtel's Avitar. My understanding is that Klipsch suffers 20-30% damage for large goods shipped. I don't know if this includes freight pallets shipmens or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedoctor Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 Maybe the online retailer could take the order and Klipsch could send the speaker to the buyer direct from the factory. Maybe Especially since the RC64 is manufactured right there in Hope Arkansas! He might be able to get them so fresh he could still smell the lacquer! mmm lacquer mmm I got a stale one, I guess. It was made in November 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedoctor Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 We test our speakers for ASTM drop standards, unfortunately UPS expects goods to pass a 4 FOOT drop test. Which is rediculous. The shippers are also good at denying claims for shipping damage. Pallet shipping to dealers is definately safer. I don't find fault in Klipsch for making them with plastic baskets. To me, the blame is on the shipping company. If I drop something in the store and it breaks, I can't go to the clerk and say you should have made a better product. I'm responsible. If I test drive a car and back into a pole, again, that's my problem, not the manufacturer of the car. Klipsch makes speakers that are capable of cranking at high volumes and as long as they can do that well and accurately, I'll put my blame on the shipping company. If anyone is to blame it is either myself, since I designed the Ref IV line, or the shipping carrier... ASTM STANDARD We test to a drop test standard but UPS chooses to "loosen" that standard for their issues...process of conveyers or just plain money saved. The ASTM standard requires drops at a certain distance on each the six facea and on of each of the corners. For this weight of 61 lbs plus carton which is about 65 lbs, I believe we dropped the carton at a distance of 18 inches. Now you may think that this is not very high, but this is a lot of kinetic energy, which would damage many floors. This drop is done on a concrete floor. There are corregated panels on two sides that are in excess of 1.5 inches I believe. To pass a 48 inch drop test would probably require side panels 3-4 inches thick with foam on the inside to vary the density. This would allow the velocity of the shock to shift more gradually. Speaker Driver Design The RC64 is a very HOT design for the motor structure. It is also shielded from stray magnetic flux so there is not only a large magnet but a bucking magnet and thick metal cap. On some models we even included a metal plate on the wall. The plastic basket we consider an upgrade. It is more expensive than a stamped metal frame. The reason we use it is to eliminate the short circuit that occures when using a metal frame. Maybe we could improve this frame by adding more radii and thickening the frame. There may be sharp edges or corners which promote stress areas. I doubt that much improvement can occur without a more robust frame structure to the cabinet to support the magets. That we may have to look at on the next version. The down side of all this is that it will add cost in packaging and construction which would need to be passed onto the consumer. Will you still buy it if it is 20% more in cost? I guarantee that the sales numbers will go down. On top of all of this is the economy. If anything we might need to reduce the current cost on the next design. There are a lot of conflicting concerns here folks. So that is the type of things that engineers have to think of on a daily basis. Can we improve on the current design? Certainly. Can the shipping companies do a better job of taking care of the package? Absolutely... Best rules of thumb. 1. Buy Local 2. Inspect the product before you buy 3. Pay by credit card or check so you can dispute the charges. 4. Buy Klipsch, because we care! The first one was shipped lazily in its Klipsch box and had one corner a little mushed, but certainly nothing to suggest what happened inside. Everything looked perfectly fine until I took off the grill (well, actually, I knew something was wrong when I started hearing stuff falling around inside the cabinet as I put the speaker on its side). The Vann's speaker was in its Klipsch box, with air-bags around and an outer box. The outer box did have a corner split, but nothing scary looking. The inner Klipsch box looked almost untouched except for a short corner split. The box and packing material certainly looks adequate to me, but I can see how the mostly-rigid dense polystyrene foam 'blocks' on the end that cradle the end of the speaker could transmit shock to the speaker. A hard inpact to either end (with its flush mount end cap that cradles the speaker closely) could certainly transmit the shock right to the speaker. As another person mentioned, it's not the fall, it's the sudden stop at the end that does the damage. These speakers have a lot of weight (and inertia), so I can't imagine how FedEx could think a single one could survive a four-foot fall, even if it were to luckily fall directly flat on a side to spread out the impact. Usually you like to control motion and have things fit snugly, but maybe the packaging is a little too rigid. Maybe a little 'wiggle room' would allow these speakers to survive shipping. The eBay speaker box had a mushed corner, so that was probably a lot of force that got directly transmitted to the speaker and sheared off the two right-side speaker baskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HudsonValleyNoah Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 No offense to anyone, but to me, smart packing is NEVER cheep packing. Unless you can get new double wall boxes, soft and when needed ridged foam and strapping tape for free, it will cost around $30 to pack an RC-7. The outer box ends up being 36x24x20. That's oversize 3. And like it or not, when you exceed a certain size, when you get to oversize 3, the cost to ship DOUBLES. It's packing for the un-expected. It's often LOOKS like over packing, except when it turns out that it was exactly what was needed.. I don't like to "roll the dice" with shipping; especially when my beloved Klipsch in the balance. And by the way, "Been there, Done that" on rolling the die. Some of you may remember the pictures that I posted last year, the photo's that OldBuckster said "Something looks fishy there." The photos just like the one's in this thread. And by the way, FedEx PAID the full insured amount AND refunded the shipping charges. I have NEVER had FedEx deny a claim on something that I shipped. Hundreds of shipments, 3 claims, three payments. That's been my experience, I am sorry for what happened to you. Noah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 ...1. Buy Local 4. Buy Klipsch, because we care! ....I have a second RC-7 with my RB-75 system that I never realized had similar damage as the OP, but only one driver partially comes out. I didn't notice it until I went to sell it Hey Professor Thump- I purchased mine local--It's out of warranty and I am somewhat embarrassed about the situation and I don't feel comfortable bringing it to my closest Klipsch dealer....I went in there last week asking for an RF-83 to use as side surrounds and he was looking on the shelf where these tiny speakers were and said he apparently didn't have any RF-83's but he much preferred the Sunfire Speakers...He was a very nice man but I didn't feel comfortable getting advice from him--Will glue and popsicle sticks work or is there somewhere I can take it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 If the screws have stripped through the MDF, what I'd do is put a small dab of glue in the MDF screw hole, then ram a few splits of wood (popsicle sticks or round toothpics will work. Let it DRY thorougly, then carefully run the screws back in by hand, being careful not to overtighten and re-strip the holes. This usually works well unless the substrate has undergone extensive damage in which case drilling a clean hole and using bolt/nut with washers might be the only fix. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 BoneDoc, So do you know what the drop test standards are for the companies you worked at? Is it 4 feet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darylomer12 Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I believe this question should be for Falcon. "And before anyone says anything yes I did work fo UPS and DHL AND AIRBORNE EXPRESS and I'm fully aware of the process" I personally think a 4 foot drop test is ridiculous! I know accidents happen, but that is their job! To make sure they don't drop 4 feet. Seems like an easy out for insurance claims. How are you supposed to know that it's packed well enough to withstand a 4 foot drop? I'm sure not going to test out a $500 speaker to find out. How about they just don't drop them? If they do, like I said, mistakes happen, but own up to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedoctor Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 Don't know what the drop standards were at my previous career. I do know that I wouldn't want a Klipsch RC-64 in full packaging dropped on an leg or arm from 4 feet! Then my current career would be most useful (ortho surgeon). That's a lot of weight, and from 4 feet (FedEx must really be optimistic), that's a lot of inertia. Maybe the FedEx workers should take a 1 pound brick and drop it on their foot from one foot. Probably will hurt a little, but no biggie. Take that same brick and drop it on their foot from 4 feet and they'll probably be coming to see me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 So do you know what the drop test standards are for the companies you worked at? Is it 4 feet? I believe this question should be for Falcon. "And before anyone says anything yes I did work fo UPS and DHL AND AIRBORNE EXPRESS and I'm fully aware of the process" I personally think a 4 foot drop test is ridiculous! I know accidents happen, but that is their job! To make sure they don't drop 4 feet. Seems like an easy out for insurance claims. How are you supposed to know that it's packed well enough to withstand a 4 foot drop? I'm sure not going to test out a $500 speaker to find out. How about they just don't drop them? If they do, like I said, mistakes happen, but own up to it! You are correct I ment to ask Falcon...Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted May 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 12, 2009 I personally think a 4 foot drop test is ridiculous! I know accidents happen, but that is their job! To make sure they don't drop 4 feet. Seems like an easy out for insurance claims. How are you supposed to know that it's packed well enough to withstand a 4 foot drop? I'm sure not going to test out a $500 speaker to find out. How about they just don't drop them? If they do, like I said, mistakes happen, but own up to it! That was TOTALLY my point. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I believe this question should be for Falcon. "And before anyone says anything yes I did work fo UPS and DHL AND AIRBORNE EXPRESS and I'm fully aware of the process" I personally think a 4 foot drop test is ridiculous! I know accidents happen, but that is their job! To make sure they don't drop 4 feet. Seems like an easy out for insurance claims. How are you supposed to know that it's packed well enough to withstand a 4 foot drop? I'm sure not going to test out a $500 speaker to find out. How about they just don't drop them? If they do, like I said, mistakes happen, but own up to it! I can't take credit for this comment but I agree with darylomer12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted May 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted May 12, 2009 I can't take credit for this comment but I agree with darylomer12. Sorry guys. The forum quoted the wrong person because I was replying to Thumps post. Sorry about that darylomer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darylomer12 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 LOL-- Don't sweat it. I think we all feel the same way. I'm still curious to hear Falcon's comments.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcon20x Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I believe this question should be for Falcon. "And before anyone says anything yes I did work fo UPS and DHL AND AIRBORNE EXPRESS and I'm fully aware of the process" I personally think a 4 foot drop test is ridiculous! I know accidents happen, but that is their job! To make sure they don't drop 4 feet. Seems like an easy out for insurance claims. How are you supposed to know that it's packed well enough to withstand a 4 foot drop? I'm sure not going to test out a $500 speaker to find out. How about they just don't drop them? If they do, like I said, mistakes happen, but own up to it! Alright, I do not want to make anyone mad or upset with me over this one as I do not make the rules. The 4 foot drop is more justified that what you think. The shipping carriers have 2 main ways to move your packages: trucks or airplanes So let's start with the trucks. Take a person with an average height and have him/her pick up an RC 64, like you would to carry it to you car. Now measure the distance between the bottom of the box and the ground, you should be between 3 and 1/2 feet, step up into the back of a UPS/ Airborne or DHL truck and take the same measure again, you should be between 4 to 5 feet. When we talk about airplanes most people think of the big airliners type, what you don't realize is a lot of the packages are actually being transported by much smaller airplanes. Unlike with the big planes, which are using closed containers, the smaller ones are loaded by hand using conveyor belt with no side bars. Often over sized packages will have a hard time to fit on those and might fall off on the side with an average height of .... I'm sure you can guess. Regardless of how you shipped your speakers it will start and finish it's travel in a truck with numerous people handling it along the way The shipping carriers are fully aware of there limitations and that is why you have rules which seems to be way out there. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm not saying it is a good system or trying to make it ok in anyways but it is a simple fact of life due to the nature of the biz. Can the system be improved? You bet but are you willing to pay for it? Same story everywhere you go. What about the gorilla? Sure they are some of them out there but belevie me the loading crews are being closely monitored Overall what I'm trying to say is; this is like paying your taxes you don't like it but you have no choice. So if you learn and understand the rules it makes it a all lot easier to work with the system and avoid unpleasant surprises. [*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darylomer12 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I thought there were different categories for packages. Example.. I ship out a 75lb reciever that is insured for $1200. Since the package has a high value, why would they send it through a conveyor and take the chance of it falling from it's highest point (4-5-6 feet?). Wouldn't you think there would be a "special handling" category for the high value packages so they wouldn't have to worry about any damage or claims? I was told there were different methods of handling, depending on insured value and weight. Is this incorrect? Nobody is blaming you about the rules. I was just curious since you have worked for 3 different shipping companies. Thanks for the explanation.[Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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