LETS TALK ABOUT TUBE AMPS VS SS

[Fast1]

I am seeking some very technically minded people to chat about differences in sound quality, dbs, and power ratings. I have not dived into this much yet but in my past stufy, I find that SS amps are uniquely rated (lie about it). Maybe there is special "sound watt" used but when comparing input fusing and wire size. When looking at tubes, their rating for power is much lower. 50-120wpc seems about right. I run a Rotel RB1080 on my RF-7s at 400wpc. I have to wonder the difference in dbs from a comparable tube amp.

I am not just wanting to compare tube on the Klipsch but all speakers. Sure seems like tube is way more expensive but can really give some nice sound. My experience with tube is only on guitar amps and I would not touch a SS guitar amp now!

Has someone compared tube with SS directly for dbs, accuracy, THD, etc?? Who the heck makes a decent priced tube amp?? They all seem about 3K and up for mono blocks or around 5K for a stereo amp.

[Islander]

I find that SS amps are uniquely rated (lie about it).

Most mono and stereo amps are rated fairly accurately, since they're always driving either one or two channels, respectively. Where power ratings get way off is with AV receivers, that could be driving 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 channels, depending on the number of speakers in a given home theatre.

If an AV receiver can drive 1 or 2 channels at 100Wpc, that sure doesn't mean it can drive 7 channels at 100Wpc, no matter what the specs may say, but nearly all the brands rate their power output like that, because in that mid-fi market, most of the buyers just go by the specs and may not even listen before buying.

As well, tube amp manufacturers sometimes give some pretty optimistic specs. It's not just SS.

[JL Sargent]

It seems the longer I listen the less I care about specs. and the more I care about what I hear. I really like the voicing of SET type tube amps and horns. Not the answer if your wanting to knock the foundation out from under your house watt wise. I suggest listening to many different amps/speakers/etc.. Find what you really like the sound of and be less concerned with printed paper.

[SWL]

It seems the longer I listen the less I care about specs. and the more I care about what I hear. I really like the voicing of SET type tube amps and horns. Not the answer if your wanting to knock the foundation out from under your house watt wise. I suggest listening to many different amps/speakers/etc.. Find what you really like the sound of and be less concerned with printed paper.

What he said. []

[seti]

There are good and bad examples of both topologies. I've found a tube preamp to be a must. I do like all tube systems but some recent listening has me tempted to try some lower powered ss amps. I'm not talking about tripath because my experience wasn't as good in the long rum.

[russ69]

Watts are watts, tube or solid state. There is no special measurement that will tell you how powerful an amp will sound. Big beefy amps with big transformers and big capacitors usually tend to sound powerful. The sound QUALITY cannot be judged by measurements only by listening.

Low priced tube amps ($1500-$3000) will not offer much power but many find them enough with efficient speakers. I have 25 watt and 60 watt tube mono-blocks, both play as loud as I want to listen but they don't have the slam of my previous 365 wpc SS amp.

Mid priced ($2500-$5000) solid state amps will offer a lot of power for the money.

If you want power AND tubes, you'll need a deep wallet, a real deep wallet.

For 2 channel use you have a lot of options. If you are talking 7 channels then it gets harder to recommend tube amps, the pricing will start to get up there and a re-tube will break the bank. We might be able to offer more help if you ask a more direct question. What are you trying to achieve? Happy hunting.

Thanx, Russ

[JL Sargent]

Russ touched on some interesting points. I will take it a little further. You can creat something thats a combination of both worlds. Right now I'm running active crossovers to tube and SS amps. I'm using SET amps to the upper mid and tweeter range horns and SS to short bass horns. I'm really into this type system right now. I have power on the low stuff and I have the SET voicing I'm after on anything above 4 or 500hz. You see 5 watts into a 110db 2" compression driver can just about take a persons head off. On the bottom end though it takes some real power to push enough air to match with those low freqs. Instead of money, I have used time and creativity to assemble what I think is an awesome sound system.

[Fast1]

Well, some are asking about my agenda here and I really do not have one. All in all, I am just not happy with the performance of my RF7s yet. I added performance resistors and caps to the crossovers, using the Rotel RB1080 which is near 400wpc, but a cheaper Denon 2804 or something. I realize that preamp is hurting me but I would really like to compare these RFs to tube. Problem I have is the system seems to straight get it on at high levels but just sounds missing at lower (normal) levels. Always find my self turning it up just to get the sound I am looking for.

Make no mistake, I WANT power thus my reason for chosing the Rotel. I realize there are better rigs out there but.... I run a Velodyne HGS18 to bring more bass in. My house requires it because I cannot get the sub to a corner, just a wall.

What I am trying to do is learn more about the components involved in the sound creation process so I can better understand where I might be able to either tweak my components how I want or possibly build my own tube amp as a project. We have plenty of electronics experience but none with specifically creating amps. I realize that not only must one understand the components involved in the build, but also understand what qualities of these components can be heard.. Like film and foil caps over electrolytic. Big difference in sound stage yet both serve the same function.

Just to validate, I am a mfg/mech engineer and my twin bro is an electrical engineer. Sometimes we tackle odd challenges just for fun! PCB design, chassis construction, heat loss are not a biggy but understanding some of the components involved to take things to the next level are what confuse me. I have not shopped for tubes but I understand them to get damn expensve. My guitar amps seem to just keep going on the same tubes. The only way I can describe the sound is "laid back" and it does not seem to attack me in the face. I am not yet sure if this will be good or bad in my HT system. I am thinking if I have enough power with a tube system, it could do well. Just wish I had someone around my area with a high end tube to try.

[Don Richard]

All home stereo amplifiers are rated according to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) guidelines, whether tube or SS. However, when operating near max output, steady or peak, tubes and SS distort differently. SS amps generally go into high levels of distortion rapidly over their power rating, with large amounts of odd harmonics. Tubes distort more gradually, producing mostly even harmonics which are musically related to the original sound. Thus, tubes sound better when overdriven. You would be surprised how often musical peaks go over rated power.

[Coytee]

What I am trying to do is learn more about the components involved in the sound creation process so I can better understand where I might be able to either tweak my components how I want or possibly build my own tube amp as a project

My experience has been... if you want to tweak your sound, you can swap out some electronics, wires or something else. If you want to make less of a tweak and more of a significant change in your sound, look into some larger speakers.

Before I get stoned to death, I'll simply say that I'm not familar with the RF series of speakers but I think I've been around enough to know that if you replaced them with some LaScalas or Khorns or.... you will get a much larger bang for your buck increase in sound than if you simply swap some amps around.

Then of course, you get into swapping the amps around with the larger speakers so maybe the circle never ends.

[Fast1]

It was my understanding the RF7s with some tweaks could compete close to the Lascala, Khorns, etc?? Keep in mind I am running a big sub to anchor the bass side of things. I think the mids to upper bass range is where I am always wanting more. Sound is still just thin to me. I will also admit that when I tried my brothers Outlaw preamp, there was a notable increase in performance. Warmer sound. Still a bit weak at lower volumes.

My brother runs Paradigm speakers and I will say they are much less fatiguing that my Klipsches. I need to find a way to smooth these Klipsches out or look at going a different direction. I like to play things very loud at times so that is a consideration.

[russ69]

Brandon says; "Sound is still just thin to me."

Brandon, I think your components are not working well with your RF-7s. Many people like Rotels but I have always found them a bit flat and lack excitement, that might work in some cases but not yours. I'm still not sure where you are heading but if you want to try some different things I would say to get a nice tube pre-amp to start. I'd also recommend some cabling changes but not with your current set-up. Change out the pre and then you'll be in good shape and we can tune it up from there.

Thanx, Russ

[seti]

It was my understanding the RF7s with some tweaks could compete close to the Lascala, Khorns, etc?? Keep in mind I am running a big sub to anchor the bass side of things. I think the mids to upper bass range is where I am always wanting more. Sound is still just thin to me. I will also admit that when I tried my brothers Outlaw preamp, there was a notable increase in performance. Warmer sound. Still a bit weak at lower volumes.

My brother runs Paradigm speakers and I will say they are much less fatiguing that my Klipsches. I need to find a way to smooth these Klipsches out or look at going a different direction. I like to play things very loud at times so that is a consideration.

I do not think an RF can compete with Khorns but this is my opinion. Big speakers big sound. Sub integration for two channel has been a challenge for me. I've flip flop'd on the issue. To simplify matters I like to just get a speaker that can go as low as I want. Now for movies I enjoy a sub. Are you sure everything is functional on these speakers? Your speakers go down to 32hz. Which is pretty low perhaps the bass with the sub is making the top end seem thin. I hope you figure this out.

[Islander]

It was my understanding the RF7s with some tweaks could compete close to the Lascala, Khorns, etc?? Keep in mind I am running a big sub to anchor the bass side of things. I think the mids to upper bass range is where I am always wanting more. Sound is still just thin to me. I will also admit that when I tried my brothers Outlaw preamp, there was a notable increase in performance. Warmer sound. Still a bit weak at lower volumes.

My brother runs Paradigm speakers and I will say they are much less fatiguing that my Klipsches. I need to find a way to smooth these Klipsches out or look at going a different direction. I like to play things very loud at times so that is a consideration.

People like to compare things in ways that don't always apply. Reference and Heritage speakers sound different, but it may be better described as a difference in flavour rather than quality. Maybe the Reference sound isn't what will make you happy. Have you listened to a good Heritage setup?

It may seem simplistic to say this, but for bigger sound, you need bigger speakers. With Jubilees or JubScalas, you get big, full, sound that you can listen to all day and want to listen to all day tomorrow as well.

[Don Richard]

My brother runs Paradigm speakers and I will say they are much less fatiguing that my Klipsches. I need to find a way to smooth these Klipsches out or look at going a different direction.

The loudspeaker cannot and is not listened to in isolation. Speakers interact with the listening room to varying degrees. I've heard some Khorns as smooth as can be, and others very harsh. The harsher system was in a room with a lot of hard surfaces causing flutter echo. Carpet, drapes, and soft furniture solved the problem.

Near-field speakers minimize room effects and would likely sound better in such an untreated room.

[Colin]

Lots of issues here.

• The FTC might have a rule, but actual performances vary surprisingly widely.

• Tube watts are not SS watts. The old saying was that tubes watts are twice as powerful as SS watts. Now it turns out that “Tubes Do Something Special” (Peter van Willenswaard, Stereophile, September 2000, http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?357). They put out a lot more voltage than we knew. Willensward measured recorded music on a 9- watt amplifier with 300B tubes. He found tubes were more than 5 times more powerful than suspected! “You'd need a 50W transistor amp to realize the same peaks my 9W 300B launched without wincing at my speakers.”

• I’ve heard RF-8s with DeanG’s crossovers in the same room as unmodified Khorns. They can sound more similar than different.

• Tube amplifiers don’t need to be expensive. ASL and Cayins are quite reasonable.

• Outlaw does seem to be more popular here than Rotel.

• It could be your room. Try the Paradigms in the same room.

• Bi-amping with tubes and solid-state is a great solution.

[Coytee]

Brandon, how close are you to Wichita or, how willing are you to drive there to perhaps give yourself an eye (ear) opening experience?

My guess is, if you can make the visit you will answer for yourself very quickly if you want to stay with RF's or if something different/larger might give you the sound you're after. (perhaps it won't)

If you are able/willing, we'll get you to Bills. If you like what you hear at Bills, you can either walk down the path he walked or do something much less expensive yet, probably 90% of the sound quality by looking at some JubeScalas.

If you walked away from his place not LOVING what you heard, I'd simply say, forget Klipsch.

[SWL]

, using the Rotel RB1080 which is near 400wpc, but a cheaper Denon 2804 or something. I realize that preamp is hurting me

I would agree. I've had Denon with my RF-7's and while the Denon does very well for movies, two-channel was stale, thin and bright. From what I've read, Rotel has similar qualities with Reference speakers.

Put the 7's in corners if you can. They've got great bass coming out of the corners. Don't give up on them.....they're great speakers.....it just sounds like they're not paired up with the right gear. The RF-7's like a lot of power despite their efficiency. From my experience with them, gobs of power going to the bass and quality low power to the highs gives best results.

[greg928gts]

I had a Rotel preamp years ago, and if I had to sum up the sound in one word it would be "thin". At the time, with the particular system I had, I really liked the thin sound of the Rotel. Matching downstream components to the speakers is critical.

Greg

[Islander]

Bryston amps have a reputation for delivering lots of bass, along with clear sound and great reliability.