Furman M8LX

[Don Richard]

Any and every amp must be designed so that nearby 50,000 watt AM radio stations do not cause RFI. Your washing machine does not and cannot output that type of power.

Any electrical contact that sparks generates RFI. Marconi's transmitter operated on that very principle. Although the amount of power radiated does not approach 50 KW, the RFI generated in the home by a washing machine or other appliance is much closer than the 50 KW transmitter, and that energy is put into the home's wiring, which acts as an antenna. Don't forget that radiated power falls off with the square of the distance - twice the distance = 1/4th the power.

There was a thread here recently where someone had noise coming from a disconnected Klipsch loudspeaker. The cause turned out to be a light dimmer. This phenomenon was confirmed by a Klipsch engineer, who said that was common with that model speaker. Of course, a power conditioner cannot cure such a problem, but it shows how bad RFI/EMI in the home can get.

[wuzzzer]

There was a thread here recently where someone had noise coming from a disconnected Klipsch loudspeaker. The cause turned out to be a light dimmer. This phenomenon was confirmed by a Klipsch engineer, who said that was common with that model speaker. Of course, a power conditioner cannot cure such a problem, but it shows how bad RFI/EMI in the home can get.

Yep, had that happen with my Fortes. I was driving with them in my wife's car heading to DJ a wedding dance with them. I kept hearing this buzzing at times and couldn't figure out what it was. Eventually realized it was coming from my speakers that were simply in the vehicle not hooked up to anything!

[westom]

Any electrical contact that sparks generates RFI. Marconi's transmitter operated on that very principle. Although the amount of power radiated does not approach 50 KW, the RFI generated in the home by a washing machine or other appliance is much closer than the 50 KW transmitter, and that energy is put into the home's wiring, which acts as an antenna. Don't forget that radiated power falls off with the square of the distance - twice the distance = 1/4th the power.

Which means any radiated power from the washer is near zero when it leaves the room. And washer does not radiate 50 KW. If they did, then the manufacturer would be completely shut down by the FCC. Please do not invent figures because it is convenient.

Washer noise is delivered by only one thing - wiring.

And for the 'electrical contact that sparks generates RFI." Again that solution is at the source where NO connection must do that.

The OP's solution starts by collecting facts with test equipment - ie a portable long wave radio. Solutions (due to something defective in the design of his equipment) starts at the source of that noise. Even with a defective design, the Furman still does less than the defective design might do. Again, view the numbers. That Furman has near zero numbers for noise elimination (as the OP has demonstrated in his experiment). And it claims no surge protection in those same numeric specs. Furman's are promoted by the electrically naive to others - as demonstrated by so many Furman recommendations without any numbers.

If nearby high voltage wires are causing a problem, then the sound is a low and constant hum. That "RFI" also does not exist - is a popular myth.

Most likely, something connected to the amp (even if powered off) is defective; may be the reason why the amp does not make routine electrical wire noise irrelevant.

And yes, the washer and dryer should be on their own dedicated circuit - but that also would not be relevant here. Due to a defect in the entertainment system design, normal electrical noise is being amplified by the amplifier. Best place to start a solution is at the noise generator. Unfortunately for Furman and those who promote that 'magic box', it means learning what exists before solving it.

[The Dude]

Lets clear a few things up here real quick, I don't recall anyone saying that the washer created rfis. Maybe I did but I might have been drinking. I do how ever have a rfi/emi issue what ever may have caused them, they are new to the system as putting it in a new house.

Second I was wrong about the washer being on the same circuit I double checked and it is on its own. My main issue again was the fact that if the washer or anything on the circuit as the system created a pop when turned on, seems to do some damage. Third I have no light dimers. I mainly bought the furman thinking it would stop the spikes from causing more damage.

I would think that my house is incorrectly grounded since after following the main ground it only leads to a cold water tap. Maybe in some situations this will be good enough but here it doesn't.

Hopefully this helps, Sorry I am not good at explaining stuff in writing a situation, as I recall I am not good at explaining my self period. My wife says I don't know how to go strait to the point effectively. Wait now shes saying I don't know how to communicate I have poor communication skills, and that is why I am not in management.

duder

[westom]

I don't recall anyone saying that the washer created rfis. ....
Second I was wrong about the washer being on the same circuit I double checked and it is on its own. My main issue again was the fact that if the washer or anything on the circuit as the system created a pop when turned on, seems to do some damage. Third I have no light dimers. I mainly bought the furman thinking it would stop the spikes from causing more damage.

Those pops are noise. Noise and surges are two completely different electrical anomalies.

Noise - it was posted that noise was created by the washer. Then that noise must be solved at the washer. Pops do not damage speakers. Do not associate pain (a loud noise) with damage. Speaker can only be damaged if the amp outputs too much power.

Furman advertising (and popular hearsay) claim to eliminate noise. As you have demonstrated, that noise protection is as near zero as its specs claim

Surge - a surge seeks earth ground. Either is it earthed without entering a building. Or it is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Essential to surge protection is a short connection to earth ground. Your earthing is a pre-1990 connection to the water pipe. That earthing is no longer sufficient. Post 1990 code requires an earth ground typically outside the breaker box. So that earth ground can also be part of the protection system, that ground must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet').

How often are destructive surges? All appliances already contain significant protection. A typically destructive surge occurs maybe once every seven years. So that internal protection is not overwhelmed, earth every incoming wire typically through one 'whole house' protector.

Now which anomaly are you trying to solve? A Furman does not claim to eliminate either. The Furman is a profit center because so many (a majority) only believe what they were told to believe. Do not ask some embarrassing questions such as, "Where do spec numbers make that claim?" You must first define what you are trying to solve. That noise is not a surge. Noise and surges are completely different anomalies typically solved in different locations - as posted here and in previous posts.

[The Dude]

I don't recall anyone saying that the washer created rfis. ....
Second I was wrong about the washer being on the same circuit I double checked and it is on its own. My main issue again was the fact that if the washer or anything on the circuit as the system created a pop when turned on, seems to do some damage. Third I have no light dimers. I mainly bought the furman thinking it would stop the spikes from causing more damage.

Those pops are noise. Noise and surges are two completely different electrical anomalies.

Noise - it was posted that noise was created by the washer. Then that noise must be solved at the washer. Pops do not damage speakers. Do not associate pain (a loud noise) with damage. Speaker can only be damaged if the amp outputs too much power.

Furman advertising (and popular hearsay) claim to eliminate noise. As you have demonstrated, that noise protection is as near zero as its specs claim

Surge - a surge seeks earth ground. Either is it earthed without entering a building. Or it is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Essential to surge protection is a short connection to earth ground. Your earthing is a pre-1990 connection to the water pipe. That earthing is no longer sufficient. Post 1990 code requires an earth ground typically outside the breaker box. So that earth ground can also be part of the protection system, that ground must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet').

How often are destructive surges? All appliances already contain significant protection. A typically destructive surge occurs maybe once every seven years. So that internal protection is not overwhelmed, earth every incoming wire typically through one 'whole house' protector.

Now which anomaly are you trying to solve? A Furman does not claim to eliminate either. The Furman is a profit center because so many (a majority) only believe what they were told to believe. Do not ask some embarrassing questions such as, "Where do spec numbers make that claim?" You must first define what you are trying to solve. That noise is not a surge. Noise and surges are completely different anomalies typically solved in different locations - as posted here and in previous posts.

Well that makes a lot more sense.

[Don Richard]

Any electrical contact that sparks generates RFI. Marconi's transmitter operated on that very principle. Although the amount of power radiated does not approach 50 KW, the RFI generated in the home by a washing machine or other appliance is much closer than the 50 KW transmitter, and that energy is put into the home's wiring, which acts as an antenna. Don't forget that radiated power falls off with the square of the distance - twice the distance = 1/4th the power.

Which means any radiated power from the washer is near zero when it leaves the room. And washer does not radiate 50 KW. If they did, then the manufacturer would be completely shut down by the FCC. Please do not invent figures because it is convenient.

Washer noise is delivered by only one thing - wiring.

And for the 'electrical contact that sparks generates RFI." Again that solution is at the source where NO connection must do that.

You seem to have problems with reading comprehension. The only "figures" (50KW) that I qouted were your own numbers. If that number was "invented", the "invention" is of your doing.

Furthermore, I clearly stated that any noise generated would transmit thru wiring. Read the quote you selected.

I also did not state that a connection caused any arc. I assumed that you know that there arcing devices within most washers, which control it's operation. These contacts control motors, an inductive load. FYI, these contacts often arc during normal operation.

[Groomlakearea51]

And that "arcing".... I can well testify to as producing RFI..... Never buy a cheap dishwasher.... Static noise, etc when operating and listening to tuner (a really, really good one with very good spurious noise rejection "numbers", etc....). No RFI when listening to CD, TT, etc. Dead silent "noise floor". All "stuff" in man cave isolated on it's own circuit from the panel box (I know because I designed the man cave and insisted on new double 12 gauge romex runs for the wall sockets. The old el cheapo dishwasher finally died a natural death.... and I replaced it with, shall we say, a better quality (and quieter as the old one sounded like a M1A1 Abrams approaching on a gravel road...), and voila!!! No FM interference!!! Dead quiet, etc. Moral of the story is that electric motors can cause RFI/EM interference.

Now as far as the Furman "issue", been down that road before with forum members including westom..., and I use them. Not so much as "conditioners", but as surge protectors, etc. which they do quite well for the price. The "numbers" are not that bad. Also makes it easy to route my power cords, etc. Nevr claimed they do much of anything except perform what they say they do. Equivocating on what they do or do not do, or "parsing" out the specs into "lies" and "truths" is a waste of time.

IMHO.... Arguing about power conditioners, Isolated power supplies, surge protectors, etc. is like the Forum arguments that get going when talking about speaker wire and interconnects.... Fun to watch (or read...), but the "battle lines are drawn", and both "camps" vigorously defend their position, much in the same fashion as the zealots argue the merits of religion.....

Oh well.... C'est La Vie!!!

[westom]

Now as far as the Furman "issue", been down that road before with forum members including westom..., and I use them. Not so much as "conditioners", but as surge protectors, etc. which they do quite well for the price. The "numbers" are not that bad.

Saying numbers are not bad is like saying you know ET is prettier than Gisele Bundchen. Since you have numbers, then post them. And that is always the problem. No numbers exist.

Furman is promoted to eliminate noise. 1) The OP demonstrated that it does not. 2) Its spec numbers also say it does not do that noise reduction.

Furman is promoted to eliminate surges. 1) Its spec numbers also say it does not do that surge protection.

Take a $7 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $25 or $150. Put the same circuit into a more expensive box. Call it a line conditioner. Sell that Furman for obscene profits – promoted only by myths and sales propaganda.

Spec numbers for that $7 grocery store protector and the line conditioner are similar - because each are essentially the same circuit. One selling for dollars; the other selling for a $hundreds.

Effective surge protection costs about $1 per protected appliance. Effective protector earths direct lightning strikes and remains functional. So that protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed, spend $1 per appliance for the well proven (100 year old) solution.

Furman is promoted on myths – claims no protection in its numeric specs. It does not claim and did not even do noise reduction. It also does not claim surge protection. Even rumored numbers are never posted. Furman is promoted only on hearsay and wild speculation. Informed consumers spend $1 per protected appliance for a well proven device that remains functional even after earthing direct lightning strikes.

[Don Richard]

Since you have numbers, then post them. And that is always the problem. No numbers exist.

They exist, at least for the model I have, PL- PLUS C

Surge

Response speed: 1ns

Surge current: 6500 Amp

Noise Attenuation:

10 dB 10kHz

40 dB 40kHz

50dB 500kHz

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=PL-PLUSC

[The Dude]

Though its not very much which explains why I probably still get rfis, but heres mine.

Noise Attenuation:Transverse mode: Greater than 23dB, 200Khz to 10 Mhz

same web site as Don's

You would have to have some serious rfis for this to be any good. At least I know what to look at and I have a decent surge protector for the system down stairs.

[The Dude]

Artto you talk about rfis causeing a null/cancel here in this post

My main concern that drew me to the furman was when I would listen to the system, anything on that circuit would cause a pop. the wash machine especially, which I think might have damaged my tweets. So I guess I was looking at for mainly a surge protection. But it seems to be else were. I did have the gentleman from the warranty department of my home over this week and he did agree that there was other issues with the whole electrical system since when I plug something in downstairs in a outlet the outlet sparks, also I know I have some major power lines off in the distance, this is most likely the problem with my rfi. If I have my laptop plugged into a outlet down stairs and run a output to my ht receiver as a source I get mad rfis.

thanks for all the inputs, once the electricians are out I will consider Isolating the ground on that circuit with its own. Luckily I have a few buddys that are electricians, that can help me with this.

First of all, your washing machine SHOULD be on a completely different circuit, on its own circuit, possibly with the dryer. That in itself should eliminate the popping.

And of course, electrical outlets shouldn't spark when you plug something into them!!!

The power lines off in the distance (how far?) shouldn't be a problem unless you have some shielding issues.

And, computers are notorious for causing RFI and line noise problems. My old Apple II used to literally, null/cancel out my favorite radio station. The roof antenna for the TV and radio tuners was located right above my office desk/computer. The signal was just a little noisy at first, but eventually the signal couldn't even lock in.

I also recently encountered a line noise problem with the computer I use for audio recording/CD mastering. Once again, its one of those ground "isolation" issues. Here, I had to isolate the ground pin on the display monitor, the computer, and the mixer. Even though they were all on the same circuit, plugged into a surge protector with RFI protection, I was getting line noise through the speakers, EVEN WHEN THE MIXER AND COMPUTER WERE TURNED OFF!!! Adding a 3 to 2 plug adaptor to all the electrical cord plugs eliminated the noise. Float those grounds!!

Could this be why I am not hearing much of anything at times through my tweeters, or is that they just might be damaged. I haven't opened the back yet and check connections so I am sure there could be something there that could be a problem. But just thought I would ask

[artto]

I do how ever have a rfi/emi issue what ever may have caused them, they are new to the system as putting it in a new house.

Second I was wrong about the washer being on the same circuit I double checked and it is on its own. My main issue again was the fact that if the washer or anything on the circuit as the system created a pop when turned on, seems to do some damage. Third I have no light dimers. I mainly bought the furman thinking it would stop the spikes from causing more damage.

I would think that my house is incorrectly grounded since after following the main ground it only leads to a cold water tap. Maybe in some situations this will be good enough but here it doesn't.

1. I think you need another "new" house. []

Second, The Furman can protect against spikes and lightening strikes ~ to some extent ~ as long as proper electrical grounding and isolation are used throughout (ie: it won't protect anything if you have an outside roof antenna where the antenna itself is physically grounded, but the antenna cable going to your tuner/reciever is not. The whole system could still be destroyed by a lightening strike).

Third, that's the way most homes are grounded ~ to the water supply pipe. What "isn't good enough" is that ideally you would have a completely separate circuit for your audio/video setup. AND this circuit would also have it's own separate isolated ground as I previously described.

[westom]

They exist, at least for the model I have, PL- PLUS C
Surge
Response speed: 1ns
Surge current: 6500 Amp
Noise Attenuation:

Where are these protection numbers? Where does it list each type of surge and protection from that surge? Not in anything you posted.

6500 amps? Where does that current flow? Our investigation discovered an answer. Destructively through nearby appliances. What kind of protection is that?

Why did you not list its joules? To have a UL rating, the joules number must exist. Why do you not list joules? Because another embarrassing question gets asked. Where does energy dissipate? How do 550 joules stop or absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? You said those specs claim protection. Where?

When did noise attenuation become surge protection? Attenuation inferior to what is already inside the appliance's power supply does what? Gets you to recommend it for noise filtering? Meanwhile another boguth the Furman for noise attenuation. Then discovered the Furman did nothing - did not attenuate pops created by a washing machine. Of course. View the spec numbers. Near zero noise filtering. As Duder1982 noted after buying a Furman M8LX :
http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/130672.aspx?PageIndex=1
> after running the wash machine, and still getting the spikes, rfis, emi, etc etc. I feel that
> this thing is worthless.

Spec numbers said it would be nearly useless even for noise filtering.

View their numbers you did not post. It claims 188 volts at 3000 amps. So, a 6000 volt surge arrives on the black (hot) wire. What happens? Now 5812 volts are on other wires. So a surge only on the hot wire is now 5800+ volts on all wires? What kind of protection is that? Ineffective protection recommended by so many who did not read (grasp) the specs.

How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) No dedicated connection for that always required short (i.e. 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing. The Furman violates both and does not claim any protection in its specs.

Protection has always been about where energy dissipates? Why does that Furman not discuss energy dissipation? Because the Furman does not claim surge protection as your numbers demonstrate. Even its noise reduction is near zero. Your specs make no surge protection claims. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground ... that the Furman does not have and will not discuss.

[wuzzzer]

westom

I think everyone gets your point.

[Groomlakearea51]

Like I said..... the arguments have become "religious" in nature....

I often wondered what that big ole copper rod was stuck in the ground next to the meter....... [H]

[Audio Flynn]

Like I said..... the arguments have become "religious" in nature....

I often wondered what that big ole copper rod was stuck in the ground next to the meter.......

Its nice to have one or two per building. If in a setting with well used large garage or outbuilding (just experienced in new house purchase in Q3 2009 with 4500 sq ft outbuilding) up on a hill or near large trees for lightning abatement.

Plus is audio enhancement.

Do not neglect odd acting circuits. My college roomate had his house burn to the ground in 12 minutes due to an elecetrical issue.

[The Dude]

Like I said..... the arguments have become "religious" in nature....

I often wondered what that big ole copper rod was stuck in the ground next to the meter.......

Its nice to have one or two per building. If in a setting with well used large garage or outbuilding (just experienced in new house purchase in Q3 2009 with 4500 sq ft outbuilding) up on a hill or near large trees for lightning abatement.

Plus is audio enhancement.

Do not neglect odd acting circuits. My college roomate had his house burn to the ground in 12 minutes due to an elecetrical issue.

This is a good point, I think this is why the warranty guy is haveing the electricians look at it, just to be on the safe side. I will talk to the electrician when he shows up about haveing a big rod in my yard. Wait that was a big ole copper rod. sorry for any mis spelling my spell checker isn't working for some reason.

duder

[Don Richard]

View their numbers you did not post. It claims 188 volts at 3000 amps. So, a 6000 volt surge arrives on the black (hot) wire. What happens? Now 5812 volts are on other wires. So a surge only on the hot wire is now 5800+ volts on all wires? What kind of protection is that? Ineffective protection recommended by so many who did not read (grasp) the specs.

Just so everyone will know how this stuff works - the 188 V is the clamping voltage, the peak EMF allowed by the device. At least until it destructs. And it is peak voltage, not RMS.

Note that these type devices add protection to whatever exists in the equipment that is plugged into the protector.

No such device can absorb a surge that is greater than it's design allows.

These devices are not cure-alls but they are useful devices in the real world. I got mine mostly to clean up a rat's nest of power wiring and have one switch to turn the system on and off. It may not meet your standards but it works for me.

[westom]

Just so everyone will know how this stuff works - the 188 V is the clamping voltage, the peak EMF allowed by the device. At least until it destructs. And it is peak voltage, not RMS.

Note that these type devices add protection to whatever exists in the equipment that is plugged into the protector.

No such device can absorb a surge that is greater than it's design allows.

That clamping voltage means 6000 volts can be on one wire; 5800 on other wires. Those are voltages when a typically destructive surge exists and why that protection circuit gives a surge even more potentially destructive paths through appliances.

Any protector that self destructs is not effective protection. AND is a household fire hazard. Many who never learn this stuff assume destruction is acceptable. So let's see what grossly undersizing does.

Human safety threats that have been seen by most fire departments. Another reason why all homes need an earthed 'whole house' protector. To protect human life from these plug-in protectors:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

Even a fire marshal describes what happens to create that threat - that completely unacceptable destruction.

188 volts at 3000 amps is a 'near zero' protection. Adds virtually nothing to existing protection. Effective protectors even must make direct lightning strikes irrelevant AND remain functional. Those protectors costs tens or 100 times less money.

Effective protectors remain functional. Ineffective protectors fail even on tiny surges because that promotes sales.