HornerKorn Posted March 19, 2002 Share Posted March 19, 2002 Hello all, I have a pair of vintage Alnico Khorns and I am wondering how to tame the K-55-V. I am looking to make the mid not so pronounced, and I know that there is a change that I can make to my AA crossover as far as the taps go, but am not sure which taps to change. I have double rope caulked them and it was a big improvement (took alot of the bite out) but the mid is still to pronounced for my Threshold pre and GAS Son of Ampzilla amp. I plan on stepping up to a SET (Laurel or Moondog) in the future, but I want to do what I can until I make the change. I know that there is also a P-trap, but at first I want to try the tap change thing. Thanx for the input, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 19, 2002 Share Posted March 19, 2002 IME&O the problem is the mid horn itself and it's directivity. Go to a wider dispersion horn and the midrange won't be so fierce on axis. Try some used EV SM-120As, these have 120 degree horizontal dispersion and will work at the 400hz crossover point from woofer to mid. I think they sound much better than the stock K-400s, of the many horns I've used only the EV 8HD sounded as bad as the K-400. The K-400 is a bum horn and an SET isn't going to turn it into a good one. My opinion you understand. Try the PTrap first, it might get you where you want to go but not all drivers suffer from the 9khz flare. This message has been edited by TBrennan on 03-19-2002 at 04:19 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted March 19, 2002 Share Posted March 19, 2002 There's no doubt the GAS amp is not helping. I'm with Tom on the P-trap. It's easy to insert and remove, too. What about your room? Is it reflective? After I put Dynamat on my K-400s, I found them better integrated into the system and not forward. My room is not bright, though. A good SET shouldn't dramatically change the character of the sound. It sounds like that's what you want. However, if you lower the output of the squawker much, the tweeter will stand out too much. After the P-trap, try bypassing the inductor for your woofer. The inductor reduces the power to the woofer a little (a dB?) and rolls it off at the squawker roll-in. A little more woofer output may acheive the balance you want. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Tom, what driver do you use with the EV SM-120As? Jim Norvell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 jnorv---I used the stock Klipsch mid driver, the Atlas. I've had a couple of sets of LaScalas and on one I simply placed the EV horn atop the cabinet and screwed the mid driver to it. To me the sound was much improved, less ferocity on axis and a bigger, more diffuse stereo image too. These effects were caused by the EV SM-120As very wide 120 degree dispersion; less of the available energy directed forward and more of it to the sides. And the SM-120A is absolutely one of the coolest looking horns ever made. Click on my website icon to see a German DIY system built with EV drivers on SM-120As on some very LaScala-like folded horns. It's the last system shown on my site. See if you notice the guys subwoofer, a Klipsch corner basshorn mounted to the ceiling, very Kool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Is EBay the best place to lok for them? What price range? Do you have any idea what the cutoff freq is? Jim This message has been edited by jnorv on 03-20-2002 at 11:38 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Tom- I was going to wait to talk to you about this in Lima but my curiosity is demanding to know now. As you may remember, I got a couple of Altec 511Bs, put parts express adaptors on them (after drilling three holes) for the K55Vs. They offer wider dispersion and added clarity, an improvement over the existing K400s. They of course are bigger than the 400 and present a mounting problem and also need damping (I think I may have mentioned previously that I found a giant zip lock baggie draped over the top and hugging the rear of the horn seems to work well}. Presents some cosmetic problems, however, that I might tackle if you can answer the following question. As you know, the 511Bs are readily available but are 500Hz horns not 400Hz. The 511B is, with parts express adaptor, about 1.5 inches shorter than the K400. Interestingly with an Atlas adaptor (which I have not found the time to track down) they would be about the same length. So here the question: How does a 400 Hz horn differ from a 500Hz? How does the EV SM120A 400Hz horn differ from the 500Hz 511B? What would be the differences in sound quality? BTW many thanks for sharing your wisdom, experience and fascinating internet site. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Although I agree with the above posters to a certain extent as the horn itself can probably be improved upon, I would think your old Great American Sound amp to be surely a serious culprit here. Some of these guys later formed SUMO and those amps were good in their day. However, that is just about the LAST thing I would employ on the vintage Klipsch speakers. I personally, believe that quality tube amplification will get your way out of those woods eliminating a lot of that glare you speak of. Yes, this is an inherent fault in Klipsch but in my experience, you can really bring about a vastly different sound from these vintage horns with attention to your system. Having just dipped into pure Class A, zero global feedback, low power solid state for a month long audition, I can still say that quality tube amplification would bring you far better results in this area if you dont want to opt for dramatic mods to your vintage Khorns. As I said in another post recently, all tube amps are not created equal, however. Still, as I am pretty familiar with the older Threshold gear and the GAS SS offerings, I would first inact a change in this area. Also, while this might be somewhat controversial on this board, you must really look at your system as a whole from your source right down to the wire selection in order to wring the most for these vintage Klipsch. Over the last month, I have done more listening than posting and have really gotten some good info on how my vintage Alnico Klipsch is reacting to the various types of gear. Unlike a few of the others onboard, I think you would be in for a dramatic surprise when you switch in some better gear here. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 21, 2002 Share Posted March 21, 2002 Soundog---Oh my, that's a big subject; many things determine a horn's response; flare rate, flare pattern, mouth size, length, various "cheats" that engineers learned empiracally. Note that the K-400 horn only responds down to 400hz when mounted to a baffle, the baffle around the horn provides a reflective surface that helps the horn's low end response. We'll talk in Lima, better yet talk to Bruce Edgar, he's The Big Kahuna, the Head Hodaddy of horns today (well Don Keele too). Mdeneen is on the money about bolting the 511 down, I noticed an improvement even though I only bolted the bottom of the horn to the top of my cabinets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwalled Posted March 22, 2002 Share Posted March 22, 2002 Tom Brennan definetly has a point about mounting the horns to a baffle. I found that out for myself when I removed the horns from my cornwalls in an effort to bring them into a smaller room where the larger cabs would not fit. I have them running as satellites, resting vertically in a mirror configuration with midbass being reinforced by a JBL D208 driver, then following down to a single DVC sub that handles both channels. Two problems happened, one, the horns were no longer behind that thick grille that Klipsch used for the cornwalls. This has a noticeable effect on the brightness. And second, without the baffle, the lower frequencies of both horns are not being reinforced. So you get a shrill, peaky kind of sound that's not too comfortable. I resorted to tissues and 4 ohms of resistors per channel for the tweeters. I'm thinking of building a small box for them, sort of a cornwall satellite that would be able to be placed vertically or horizontally. If I ever get it done I'll submit pics. Jon ------------------ markvi82@hotmail.com 1981 Cornwall I's Yamaha DSP-A1000 integrated amp Acoustic Research AR3A's for Pro-Logic rears (Music only setup) Marantz CD Player Yamaha Turntable with Stanton EE Cartridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elso Kwak Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 Hi All I strongly disagree with the other posters. The GAS Son of Ampzilla is a marvalous amplifier ideally suited to drive a pair of Klipschorns. You can update this more than 25 years old design by replacing inputcaps by polypropylene and matching all four inputtransistors. If done the Son can easely compete with the Krells and Mark Levinson's of today. I myself am using a Ampzilla very much to my satisfaction. There is not so much wrong with the K400 midrange horn except for a slight peaking around 5000-6000Hz that is corrected in my KWAK-CROSSOVER. Schematic available on request by sending me a email. I strongly dislike the EV SM120A horn. I still have one laying around; anyone interested? The K400 is not beaming and with good source material the K-horn has incredible depth and imaging. The midrange driver I replaced in my K-horns by Electrovoice 1823M , and later by EV 1824M. These are a real improvement over the K55V. Umfortunately 1823 & 1824 are no longer available. I don't have any experience with the newer EV-drivers. The midrange in the K-horn is operated very close to the lower cutoff point. My filter takes care of that by using a fourth order Bessel high pass function, thus preventing any low frequency energy entering the midrange driver causing intermodulation distortion. This is especially important at high 90dB+ levels! I also replaced the tweeters by EV T-350 (Alas no longer avalable too). The Klipschorn is a wonderfull speaker but also the most revealing, meaning that bad source material can sound bad. This goes particularly for CD Players & DAC's using digital filters. The Klipsch will reveal the ringing and overshoot of the digital filter. I stuffed the bass chamber with Dr Bailey's long hair (actally Visaton dampening "wool") and dampened the midrange horn with leadbitumen; though the latter mod did not do any good or wrong. ------------------ ELSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 I can only agree with Elso on the k400 topic.I've been experimenting with the Altec 290E drivers and 311-60 horns for a day now,and the improvement is not so dramatic(I only prefer the 290e driver for it looks).I am planning to experiment with the 803b multicell next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMarshall Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 I have the same issue with a brand new set of Heresy IV's. Do they all sound this shouty bright, or could I have received that 1 in 100 where the squawker makes more than a few pieces of music un-listenable (if that is a word). I love these speakers and want to get them right. NAD CS1 Tidal Endpoint ----> RME ADI 2 FS DAC/pre with EQ ------> 2 WPC SET 45 (Alan Eaton) ----> Heresy IV (using Mogami cables 10 ft.) I am grateful for any advice, ideas or thoughts. Robert Marshall/Danville KY 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 Welcome some more. If you want to, let the speakers abit of break-in time to mellow some...nice system. @RobMarshall 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82 Cornwalls Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 10 minutes ago, RobMarshall said: I have the same issue with a brand new set of Heresy IV's. How long have you had them? How many hours would you say you have listened to them? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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