Paladium v. Klipschorn v Jub

[garyrc]

• Can anyone -- including those at Klipsch -- describe the subjective differences in sound between the top-of the line Paladium, a modern (AK4 or AK 5, or post 2001) Klipschorn, and a Jub?
• How do they compare in bass extension?

[jacksonbart]

I miss Parrot

[ZAKO]

I miss MAS

[Chris A]

describe the subjective differences in sound between the top-of the line Paladium, a modern (AK4 or AK 5, or post 2001) Klipschorn, and a Jub?

Can't help you with your specific request, but if I might suggest: comparing the Palladium with the CW III would be an interesting exercise. I don't like comparing horn-loaded bass speakers with direct-radiating bass speakers, because they sound so different (at least to my ears). I think PWK developed cornerhorns first because he was impressed with their sound. He developed direct-radiating-bass loudspeakers later, when he had a company that needed to make sales (and Khorns have always been expensive speakers to both make and buy).

I can give you an approximate comparison on the Khorn vs. Jub: there is very large difference. Huge soundstage, etc. on the Jub. I find that Jubs allow you to move around the room much better, i.e., it uses the so-called "constant-coverage" K402 horn. In addition, the Jubs really don't care about room acoustics like Khorns (or Palladiums, for that matter) since the Jub's K402 can control its polars down to the crossover frequency of about 400-450 Hz. This is not true for the Khorn. Additionally, the K402 doesn't use an exponential hf horn. The horn profile that it does use seems to give the sound a much cleaner and less "horn-like" presence. You can talk to Roy D. about that subject, however. [:#]

I note that the Jub bass bin has a smoother sound than the Khorn's. I think that bass extension on both the Khorn and the Jub about about the same, but the Jub bin has lower distortion (by PWK's own measurements: it was an objective of the Khorn redesign). I can hear that difference clearly.

I don't know about the Palladium sound: some of the other Jub types have heard both. They reported that it is very smooth and seamless. I don't know about its bass extension but it is a direct radiator and it might go lower. Note that the distortion of the bass will be higher (physics). I'm sure that it sounds really good - and it should - since a pair cost more than double what new Khorns or Jubs cost. I would think that most people that buy Palladiums do so because they don't have good corners or they don't want something the size of Khorns or Jubs.

One more: I am now running TAD TD-4002s on my Jubs. It isn't close in performance to the K-69As that I ran for about two years. I will never go back to the K-69As. (The TADs should sound better however...[8-|] ) I would highly recommend listening to the TADs before making a decision about buying speakers in this price range, however. Again, Roy can give you a rundown of your options, assuming that window-shopping turns to buying...[H]

Chris

[seti]

They all three pretty different. I could be happy with any of them. The Palladium looks and sounds great. The build quality is superb. I would say the LF of the Jubilee is much more authoritative than the khorn. I still have my khorns and will always have them.The bass of the jubilee is on a whole new level. I had Dee and Tony over at the house a couple weeks ago and during a music bass test cd Tony said he was getting dizzy. The LF is stunning especially when you have source material that excites the low end. That is more of hot rodding not really sitting and listening to tunes but they do have the cojones to shake the house.

Mass was fun : ) Would would have 20 paragraphs by now : )

[Chris A]

during a music bass test cd Tony said he was getting dizzy.

I use the first disk of The Boston Bass Rally Collection with the Jubs and SPUDs, and I have to tell you that it doesn't take 15 seconds to become disoriented. [+o(]

That is more of hot rodding not really sitting and listening to tunes but they do have the cojones to shake the house.

Yep...

Chris []

[Coytee]

Not to be correcting anyone, but it's MAS, not MASS unless perhaps, you refer to someone from Boston? []

For my ears... I do not and have not missed my Khorns for 284 nanoseconds since they've been gone. Realize that I lusted to own a pair of Khorns for 25 years and was estatic to finally get a pair.

I can't really get into the quick version of what I think as it would probably sound more blunt than it should.

I think Chris hit it on the head. I've heard the Palladiums and think they sound fantastic. I also think the Jubilee has a larger "wall" of sound (note: This isn't to say louder or anything like that)

How to put this next part.... I once asked Roy why, if I am sitting in my seat and my Jubilees are measured at say, 100 db's AT the seat....and if we then swap them out for Heresy's and play them at 100 db's AT the seat; why the Jubilee's sound so much larger.

To butcher what he told me, my understanding of his answer is back to the "even coverage" concept. The Heresy's put out a bubble of sound and at my chair, the bubble MIGHT be shaped like an oval balloon where the tip of the oval at my ears is indeed, 100 db's however, as you move sideways the sound output drops off pretty quickly. The Jubilees on the other hand, put out more of a flat "wall" of sound where instead of being this oval shaped balloon, think more of a pool table coming at you. If you put your ears on most locations on this pool table then each position will have similar sound without the quick dropoff that the smaller bubble has.

(I've gotta say, if the above doesn't convey anything very well then more than one person is going to think I'm really wacko!)

So, one of my personal attractions to Klipsch in general and now the Jubilees is their great sound...sure. But I also like this "wall" of sound that really covers the room.

Bass output? I've not had any time with the Palladiums other than some listening at the Indy get togethers but... I did put a movie in the other night and played it over the Jubes.

I just sat back with ear to ear grins. The lightning & thunder was stupendous. The bomb's going off.... all the stuff that we like about these kinds of speakers. I'm sure that's nothing new to you if you have Khorns.

Now, one thing that I think is one of the MOST significant changes I personally heard in my home is the distance I needed to be from my Khorns to hear their absolute BEST sound. It was seriously, 30' away. I've mentioned this multiple times on the forum.

Walking down the stairs one day, system playing in the living room. Turn the corner at base of stairs and the left Khorn was in direct line of fire and the right Khorn was hidden by another wall. (I really need to get a picture of this)

The sound was fantastic. Sounded much more coherent at this location than while in the room.

Once I got the Jubilees installed, one of the early things I did was say to myself "I can't wait to hear how much better they're going to sound when I go to my 30' listening spot"

Intrigue was mine when I did NOT hear any improvement in sound.

Long story short.... becuase the Jubilee is a 2-way, it takes far less distance for the "bubble" to sound like a single point source than it did with my Khorns.

Put differently, the Khorns sounded great while IN the room with them and FANTASTIC when at this 30' position. The Jubilees on the other hand, sound FANTASTIC while at this 30' location AND while also being in the same room with them.

Hope that helps a bit.

[jacksonbart]

nice review. Top Notch!

[Chris A]

...because the Jubilee is a 2-way, it takes far less distance for the "bubble" to sound like a single point source than it did with my Khorns.

I would add that if you time-aligned the Khorn, it would probably "come together" at a much closer distance than 30'. Remember that the Khorn bass bin is delayed 8.4 6 ms and the midrange is delayed 1.7 1.6 ms--relative to the tweeter. If you tri-amped and did delay correction, I think that you would find that it would sound much better up close. And impulsive sounds (e.g., percussion) will be sensed as much more realistic and coherent.

However, there will be differences remaining:

The Khorn midrange loses pattern control in the vertical axis below a certain frequency, and this energy splashes around the cabinet and nearby furnishings when exiting the speaker -- all due to the midrange horn's short vertical dimension. This results in an in-room timbre shift and overall presence shift that is difficult to verbalize, but very significant. This actually results in needed voicing changes in the balancing network (if using passive crossovers). This is due to the famous "precedence effect". This is why you need good carpet and ceiling diffusers with the Khorn, IMHO. It is probably also true for the Palladium to some degree based on midrange horn mouth geometry. I would guess this is why so many people have been shifting their Khorn midrange horns over to alternatives like the Altec 511b and other homemade horns. They have larger mouths in the vertical dimension, and will hold their patterns down to lower frequencies. Constant coverage and diffraction, though, are still issues with these horns.

The Jub also does not have a hf crossover at 4.5 KHz. Crossovers in this band are really not desirable since our ears are most sensitive in this region. Listen to strings (including guitar), female voices, and pianos - you will hear artifacts in Khorn midrange-to-tweeter crossover region. Delay correction between midrange and tweeter will minimize this, but not eliminate it.

[garyrc]

Thanks for all the info. I am tempted.

One more question: Since there is no dedicated tweeter, I am wondering how the very high frequency response compares.. I'm sure it's good, but when the Jub was first available, one individual heard it at Klipsch and reported on the forum that the Jub seemed to have better bass, and the Khorn better highs. Now I realise that the Khorn's K-77(m or f) doesn't reach as far into the stratosphere as some tweeters, but I've allways liked its brassy, zingy sound. I wouldn't want to lose that. Does anyone have either anechoic frequency curves of the Jub, or curves you ran yourselves? I'd be interested, given that there is no place nearby place I can go to hear them. It would be interesting to compare Jub curves, especially on the high end of thre spectrum, with the anechoic curves of the (AK4) Klipschorn that Roy so kindly provided us with a couple of years ago.

Since the Jub is a contender for Klipsch's best speaker, it would be great if one store in every second state had one to hear. I remember when (in the '70s)Khorns could be heard at 7 different S.F. Bay Area stores. Berkeley Custom Electronics, Pro-Audio, Christopher's Audio, The Good Guys, the Listening Post, and Poor Richard's, and a little hole -in-the wall in Berkeley with a name I forgot.....

[Coytee]

Thanks for all the info. I am tempted.

My honest (though admittedly biased) opinion? If you do it you will probably kick yourself for having waited so long. That's my no [bs] opinion.

Since there is no dedicated tweeter

Not necessarily true.... we're using (stock) the K69 which is in fact, the dedicated tweeter driver for the Jubilee in a 3-way format

I am wondering how the very high frequency response compares

Terry DeWick was at my house once. They brought some measuring equipment. If I remember correctly, I stopped hearing much sizzle at roughly 14K but the display went on up to at/over 16K and was flat as a pancake. (that is what I think happened, it's possible that I heard up to 16K and it went up from there but I don't think that's probable. it's been a long time)

one individual heard it at Klipsch and reported on the forum that the Jub seemed to have better bass, and the Khorn better highs

If perchance that was Mark1101 (and I'm not saying it was since I don't know...but he did at one time, say he preferred the HF sound of the Heritage series) then realize he's since sold his Khorns and has the MWM bass bins with the K402 on top. If it wasn't him, then ignore my comment.

but I've allways liked its brassy, zingy sound.

I prefer more natural, pasta or peta bread sound.... ok...so I can't help myself at times, from being an a** []

Since the Jub is a contender for Klipsch's best speaker,

In my opinion, it's not a contender. It's clearly second place behind the MWM bass bins with K402 on top! [Y]

it would be great if one store in every second state had one to hear

I agree. This is in part why I keep offering up other peoples homes to audio strangers. Just think... if you get a pair, I'll be offering up your home soon after!

[6]

On a serious note... should you debate this enough to actually call/email Roy and start to talk some dollars... I'd suggest you also inquire about the walnut front instead of the all black. I don't know the upcharge but this way you can make your own mind up rather than simply presuming it to be too expensive. (I have no idea of the surcharge)

Good luck! Trust me, the water is pretty warm.

[WMcD]

" I'm sure it's good, but when the Jub was first available, one individual heard it at Klipsch and reported on the forum that the Jub seemed to have better bass, and the Khorn better highs. "

I wrote that. It was referring to the first Pilgrimage at Hope. But you have to know the whole story.

The Jubilee bass units were in good corners. The treble section was a fiberglass horn of some type -- it might not have been a Klipsch design. The treble driver was a B&C. The crossovers were not visible at all. So I can't say they were optimized. In fact I see to recall that the whole set up was put together at the last minute. That could account for treble performance.

The K-Horns were on the other side of the room and not in good corners, IIRC. That would account for its bass performance.

I reported what I heard and probably explained all that. It was not presented to be a "final" form of the Jubilee treble section, and not presented as a legit comparison.

You have nothing to worry about regarding the preformance of the Jubilee and the various treble sections which are available from Hope.

Wm McD

[Islander]

" I'm sure it's good, but when the Jub was first available, one individual heard it at Klipsch and reported on the forum that the Jub seemed to have better bass, and the Khorn better highs. "

One of the great things about the Jubilee (and the JubScala) is that its active (in most cases) crossover can be easily set for best performance. In September of 2008, Roy Delgado found and released some new electronic crossover settings that included some boost at 18KHz. When I punched in those updated settings, the improvement was immediately noticeable, with more realistic cymbal sounds, among other things.

He also added a bass boost later that minimized the need for a subwoofer with the Jubilee.

As for the Jubilee being the top of Klipsch's speaker line, it's not a regular production item and will probably never be available in large numbers. As well, its commercial looks will likely limit its market to the serious audio fans who value performance above style. The Palladium is also a very high performance speaker and it would be the top of Klipsch's regular production speaker line.

[seti]

Don't forget that now you can special order the front veneered.

Of course the top hat is a special build by Kudret.

[Coytee]

Don't forget that now you can special order the front veneered

Seti, you know that showing the Jubilee in any other look than "plug ugly" or "Warthog" is totally unacceptable? You might accidently get the word out that people can have killer sound AND a nice looking (though admittedly large) speaker in their room. []

Gary: Something that keeps crossing my mind as something I wish I'd added above.

Keep in mind that (as I understand it) PWK felt he could improve on the Khorn design. He wanted to take the Khorn back to a 2-way speaker which as I've since heard, was his original design (?). He was trying to design the "Klipschorn II" much like we have the LaScala II, Cornwall III's and the like.

Evidently when he finished and actually heard this beast, he felt that he not only accomplished his goal of making the Khorn better....but he made it better by such a margin that this new creation deserved its own place in the lineup and he would keep the Khorn. This was at/near the 50'th anniversary so he titled his new creation the Klipschorn Jubilee (seems the Jubilee is the 50'th Jewish holiday)

I also understand that even though he's shown standing next to that picture with the pretty wooden horn on top (K403?) he told Roy that he wanted a larger horn than that. I don't know what all happened then but long story short.... Roy picked out the K402 (and/or the K510 for those who want a smaller horn). I don't recall if Roy said PWK heard this version of the Jubilee or not.

Ultimate point I'm trying to illustrate here is, if you have Khorns and Belle's as noted in your tagline, you have one of PWK's creations and something he liked. The Jubilee was his last creation and felt it was a significant improvement over his original (and still awesome) design.

If you (or anyone) ever jumps into this blind as some have done, it's not really as much of a "leap of faith" as it may seem. If your Khorns & others had PWK's stamp of approval on it and the Jubilee had his stamp of approval on it I think it's fair to say that you'd enjoy them.

[seti]

What is interesting about the 403 is tha it is a compromise of Roy and PWK. Modified tractrix with collapsing verticals as PWK insisted. I'm curious what a 402 would be like with the collapsing verticals PWK insisted on. Don't tell Roy or I might get clubbed at the Pilgrimage []. I like the 402 and 403 but having PWK's last hf horn is very special to me.

If I were contemplating these three speakers I would go to the effort to hear them all for myself. Like I said I could live with any of the three as they are three of the best products from Klipsch imo.

[Islander]

Of course the top hat is a special build by Kudret.

seti, do you have any shots of that 402 enclosure from other angles? It looks pretty good in that picture.

[jacksonbart]

now will this be handled by the Marquess of Queensberry rules or a cage match?

[DrWho]

One more question: Since there is no dedicated
tweeter, I am wondering how the very high frequency
response compares.. I'm sure it's good, but when the Jub was first
available, one individual heard it at Klipsch and reported on the forum
that the Jub seemed to have better bass, and the Khorn better highs.
Now I realise that the Khorn's K-77(m or f) doesn't reach as far into
the stratosphere as some tweeters, but I've allways liked its brassy,
zingy sound. I wouldn't want to lose that. Does anyone have either
anechoic frequency curves of the Jub, or curves you ran yourselves?
I'd be interested, given that there is no place nearby place I can go
to hear them. It would be interesting to compare Jub curves,
especially on the high end of thre spectrum, with the anechoic curves
of the (AK4) Klipschorn that Roy so kindly provided us with a couple of
years ago.

Below ~7kHz, the K402 with the K69 driver is going to dominate the K77 in every way.

Above
that range, the K69 has better HF extension on-axis, but the polar
response starts to narrow a bit, whereas the K77 is going to have wider
polars. The K69 still has lower distortion, but the larger diaphragm
starts getting into breakup modes a bit earlier, which will cause the
very highest frequencies to ring a bit. In a way, the extra sizzle from
the ringing behaves similar to having wider polars up top depending on
the music and listening room, etc. If I'm understanding correctly, the
K77 is using a diffraction slot phase plug which gives it its signature
frying bacon / tizzy sound.

The beauty of the Jubilee is that
it is relatively straight forward to upgrade to better drivers, like
the TAD4002...which I think still brings you in cheaper than the P-39F
(I'm not sure though).



I think one of the advantages to the Palladium is that they were voiced
to be pulled out a ways from the corners....which can be very
beneficial in some rooms. The Jub LF isn't as sensitive to corner
placement as the khorn, so it's kind of in the middle between the two.



LF extension is pretty similar between all 3. I think the P39F sounds
more inert, but it's definitely higher distortion than the Jubilee and
probably about the same as the Khorn. The P39F sounds better than the
khorn though because its frequency response isn't all crazy.



Btw, here's a link to the Jubilee JAES article that compares the Khorn LF to the Jub LF:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/3/423291/AES-Jubilee.pdf



And then just for kicks, here's an unsmoothed frequency response measurement I took of a K402 with an EV DH1A driver instead of the K69:





If I were to smooth the plot, it'd look like a relatively boring flat
line with a little boost around 15kHz (which is there to maintain that
HF sizzle and counterract the narrower polars up top). I should also
add that this is highpassed somewhere around 500Hz...it'll actually dig
down to ~350Hz if you want it to.



Sadly I don't have any plots (lost the harddrive), but the K77 usually
craps out somewhere between 14kHz to 17kHz depending on the age.



The P39F is a bit smoother over the last top octave, but I personally
feel that Klipsch voiced the tweeter a touch too hot. In fact, the only
real critique I have for the P39F is the disconnected highs.

[DrWho]

I'm curious what a 402 would be like with the collapsing verticals PWK insisted on.

Why wouldn't it be the K403?