Please help Klipsch newb with Cornwall purchase

[KlipschNewb]

Hi everyone, first post here. I've been looking for a decent pair of Cornwalls and came across these locally and was hoping for some advice. They look like they have a few rough spots but overall not bad. He's asking $550. From my research they are built in 1981 and are most likely version 1 based on the appearance of the woofer mounting. I'm not sure about the drivers and which crossovers they have. Only thing that bothers me is that the serial number stickers look awfully new for 30 year old speakers, I'm sure I'm just being paranoid. Based on these pictures would this be a fair asking price? I appreciate everyones help.

[CapZark]

They look legit and are probably worth $500 or so assuming all the drivers work. I wouldn't pay much more than that for butt joint stained birch that are pretty banged up. Cosmetically they are 4 or 5. Nothing to write home about, but they are still Cornwalls and can be cleaned up.

[oldmako]

First off, I have never heard Cornwalls so my opinon is pretty much worthless. But, I'm bored and working on a very nice Bloody right now and I have some time to opine. That being said, this forum has 14zillions posts about them and from what I gather, CWs are highly regarded and sought after. These have seen some rough handling but as previously mentioned, they could be cleaned up quite a bit and made to look decent. If you had the bucks, you could take them to a local cabinet shop and have them re-veneered. I have no idea what that would cost, but I'd bet that the speaks are worth it.

WRT the stickers, I'd not sweat that. They probably spent the majority of their lives tucked up against walls where the sticker would see minimal abuse.

I personally think his price is high given the cosmetics. And I think I'll have another.

[finallygotmyheresies]

In my opinion the price is high. I would try an offer of $400~450. I got a pair without grills in probably slightly worse condition cosmetically but perfect sonically for nearly half of his asking price.

Good luck. The Cornwalls are so good that it pushed my Heresy 3's back into their boxes.

[bigrfish]

This time of year vintage Klipsch prices go up a bit...I've seen comparable units sell for much more in the last month. Buy them for the best price, convert them into CornScalas with parts from Bob Crites (google Crites Speakers and look at his CornScala pages) and do what you will to them cosmetically, and rock on...and you'll never look back!

[garyrc]

There have been three versions, not counting very minor changes. I think these are version 2 (Cornwall II), given the date. The originals came out in 1959, I believe. As I remember, they didn't make a big deal about the version numbers until they brought out the III, which is a redesign.

[KlipschNewb]

Thanks for all the advice so far. I'm still on the fence about this purchase, I might just wait until a better conditioned set comes along. How hard would it be to recondition these cabinets? I'm assuming that the finish is poly. Thanks..

[joshnich]

Those are not cornwall 11's they are Cornwalls. They are what is called "decorator" and were originally sold unfinished. Which is why they are but jointed. Many believe that the butt jointed cornawalls sound better because of better because of the stiffer construction. Also the quality of the plywood is said to be better because it wasnt covered up with verneer.

It looks to me like the finish is just stain. There are options that include polyurethane to laquer. There are a number of threads on the different approaches.

I have owned both versions and quite honestly could not tell any difference in sound. I would offer less because of the cosmetic issues. That being said you can finish these so they look pretty nice. If you decide to move forward make sure all the drivers work - put some cloth in the mid horn and put your ear close to the tweeter and make sure it hasnt been blown. Easy and inexpensive to replace but additional cost non the less.

[HudsonValleyNoah]

Yes, Cornwall I's not II's.

Could be Cornwall 1.5's but you can't tell until you open them up.

All Cornwall I or 1.5's are butt jointed but the ones with fancy veneers have edge band veneer that covers the but joints.

Also, these are not the decorator version of the Cornwall.

They are just missing the grills (at least in the pictures.)

Just plain Cornwall Birch Raw.

By the way, prices of Heritage speakers (and ALL vintage audio) tend to go down in the summer months.)

And back up in the Fall.

Value?

If you want to buy Cornwalls and all the drivers work and these are within pick-up distances then $500 is "in the ballpark".

If even a single tweeter was blown, I would be looking to pay that much less.

As to value, this is just my 2 cents.

Corns DO kick a$$

I would have paid the $500 for my first pair...

Noah

[KlipschNewb]

To make things even more interesting I have a local gentleman who would like to sell me an oiled walnut pair of Chorus I speakers for $375. Much nicer condition than these Cornwalls. I realize that the Chorus are not Cornwalls but do they get close performance wise or should I just wait for a better Cornwall buying opportunity? I plan to set up my eventual speakers in the corners of a 17' wall firing out about 45 degrees to a listening position about 11' away from the front wall (sorta like a Klipschorn setup). They'll be in my finished basement so ceilings are pretty low (just shy of 7') and will be powered by a Stromberg Carlson ASR-333 12wpc tube integrated amp. Thanks again for everyone's help.

[garyrc]

• The Chorus and Cornwall will sound pretty different, but both are quite good. If you can verify that they work and haven't been abused, and you replace the caps or the crossover in anything as old as 1980 (but listen a while first, just to check ... I'm not sure when they started using the long lasting Mylar caps), I would bet on the Cornwalls.
• PWK was a strong advocate of putting a Cornwalls in the corners ... the "wall" part may have been to assure people that they could be placed along a wall in a 3 channel set-up, with either Khorns or Cornwalls in the corners. He pointed out bass benefits, and that corner placement was like increasing amplifier power without paying for it.
• With a 12wpc amp you will need high sensitivity for loud reproduction. If you don't already know, check the SPL in dB @ 2.83v ("1 watt") @ 1M of each on the Klipsch website
• I'm confused. If those pictured on KlipschNewb's post are Cornwall Is (just plain Cornwalls), then what were the ones with vertically oriented tweeters and mid horns (as opposed to the horizontal orientation of the ones pictured) and the woofer way toward the bottom of the enclosure called? [] The finished ones had a trapezoidal shape to the front trim, and the decorator ones did not, of course. There is a picture of a finished one buried on the Klipsch website somewhere, and I have a picture of a decorator version in a Klipsch catalog from the mid to late '60s. When I used to haunt Berkeley Custom Electronics and Pro Audio (Oakland) in the '70s, they had already gone to the horizontal orientation.

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/search/default.aspx?search=Cornwall

Look through grille to see that the outlines of the mid and tweet are vertical, and the woofer is way at the very bottom on the left.[] Note the stubby legs. In the catalogs I didn't notice Roman Numeral designations until the III came out, although i think a few reviews had numerals. Also, weren't there some with two ports at the bottom, and others with three? The total area of the ports seemed to be about the same, so maybe they went to three for ridgidity. The one I'm hypothesizing is a "I" (pictured here) doesn't appear to have visible ports, but I have a vague memory that the port was on the back of the enclosure ???

[joshnich]

Yes, Cornwall I's not II's.

Could be Cornwall 1.5's but you can't tell until you open them up.

All Cornwall I or 1.5's are butt jointed but the ones with fancy veneers have edge band veneer that covers the but joints.

Also, these are not the decorator version of the Cornwall.

They are just missing the grills (at least in the pictures.)

Just plain Cornwall Birch Raw.

By the way, prices of Heritage speakers (and ALL vintage audio) tend to go down in the summer months.)

And back up in the Fall.

Value?

If you want to buy Cornwalls and all the drivers work and these are within pick-up distances then $500 is "in the ballpark".

If even a single tweeter was blown, I would be looking to pay that much less.

As to value, this is just my 2 cents.

Corns DO kick a$$

I would have paid the $500 for my first pair...

Noah

Not that it matters much, but those are decorators. They changed the decorators from having an unfinished motorboard in I believe 78.

JND28

[HudsonValleyNoah]

John,

What do you mean by "They changed the decorators from having an unfinished mortarboard in I believe 78."?

I have a pair of 1977 CD-BR (standard nomenclature for Cornwall Decorator - Birch Raw) and it has a mortarboard that extends to the edges of the Cornwall on the top and bottom.

In the OP, the mortarboard does NOT extend to the top and bottom.

Pictures of my and other CD-BR's are in quite a few threads over the years.

So, I think it matters that we identify this new Cornwall owner's CBR's so he really knows what he is looking at.

He asked for the help.

Also, if these are in fact some sort of CD-BR's that are listed as simply "CBR" and with mortar boards that do not extend to the top and bottom, then I would like to know.

It would be news to me so, I am open to new and confirmed info.

Thanks,

N

[garyeanderson]

I don't know much about Cornwall's but I have been reading a lot here on this forum to learn what I have bought in the last couple of months and I ran across this post yesterday. HDBRbuilder goes into a lot of detail on what's what and what it ain't in this post. The link below is page 2, you may want to start the read on the first page to get a better idea of the context of Andy's reply.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/39158.aspx?PageIndex=2

Andy seems to have an excellent grasp of the past at Klipsch and its a very good read. Below is the reply that HDBRbuilder wrote in reply to some questions about the Decorator models of both Heresy and Cornwall with expanations of the changes and why. As with all of the great folks that offer their time and energy to help us late comers to understand the basics, I want to thank everyone for all of the great info that they provide.

HDBRbuilder post below

--------------------------------

OK...let me try to explain some of this "decorator" speaker stuff as best I can.

"D" style, or "decorator" style cabinets were a lower-cost alternative for the consumer of SOME of the Klipsch designs of the original "Heritage" series speakers, with the EXCEPTION of "D" style LaScalas and Belle Klipsch speakers. OFFICIALLY, there were never any "decorator" Belle Klipsch speakers made(although there WERE at least two pairs of BIRCH Belle Klipsch speakers made while I worked there (76-83)! The LaScala, or course, was always made out of plywood, so, in effect, ALL OF THOSE were "decorator" models.

The intent of "Decorator" models was that the consumer could use these in a wide variety of applications while saving some money on the purchase costs as compared to the cost of fine-veneered models. The "decorator" style k-horns are likely the major exception to this rule, since MOST of these were used in nightclub or other professional applications...or immediatley modified by owners into C-style cabinets.

The original decorator cabinets for Heresy and Cornwall speakers were what we at the plant called the "flush-front" models. On these models, the assembly of the cabinets was using glue and nails ONLY...with no glue blocks used in actual construction of the boxes, except for the rear of the cabinets, where they were used for mounting the speaker back panel to the cabinet with screws. This cabinet design was extremely strong, and could take falls from over 6 feet onto a corner of the cabinet, usually with no major STRUCTURAL damage.

The idea behind decorator models was that the owner could save money on his/her purchase and still have a number of viable options in which to employ the speakers. They could be built into the walls between studs (especially good possibility in rooms with closets on walls opposite wall speakers were mounted into); they could just be painted to match the room decor, and grille cloth matching the room decor could be stapled to the front with trim tacked over the edges of the grille cloth; or they could be stained and finished to match other furniture in the room.

You would be surprised how many were finished out quite nicely by home craftsmen...using inexpensive moldings and such to cover the exposed plys on the cabinet.

Now, here is the big clincher...By the time I began working at Klipsch, the company had been in a "new" building for just a very few years (2 or 3), but an addition to that building, which more than doubled the size of the plant, was just being completed when I got hired on (July 1976). Within two months, the plant had overflowed into this new addition and within another year and a half it was determined that even this new addition was not large enough for the expansion the company needed at the time! How did Klipsch manage to grow so fast at a time when other speaker manufacturers were going under? Simple answer is: Decorator Heresys!! Just figure it this way: In a normal 40-hr week of production, maybe 10-12 K-horns, 10-70 Cornwalls of all kinds(depending on orders), 5-7 Belle Klipsch speakers, 15-35 LaScalas, 150-250 NON-decorator Heresys, and at least 350-700 DECORATOR HERESYS, were produced! The Klipschorn is what made Klipsch famous, but the HERESY, and, in particular, the DECORATOR HERESY, is what made the company PROFITABLE, and KEPT the company SOLVENT through times when other speaker/audio companies were going under right and left!

OK, so just when and WHY did the company change the cabinet design for the "decorator" Cornwalls and Heresys? Well...as the decorator Heresys began to sell more and more, it was noticed that more and more often, the orders came for them to have grille cloth on them. Well, the flush-front models required the cloth be stretched across the front panel, then stapled around the edges of the front, then molding (screen-door moldings) be mitered to length and bradded-on to cover these stapled-on edges of the cloth. This was a time-consuming and labor-intensive procedure, and, ESPECIALLY since it was being applied to the low-cost version of the cabinets, the decision was made to change the cabinet construction so that the same grille-cloth panels installed on the mitered-corner finely-veneered Heresys could be used on the decorator style Heresys! Since the new cabinet-build had the front being "dropped-in" and stapled onto recessed glue blocks, just as on the mitered Heresys, we at the plant called them drop-in-front-style decorator Heresys. This change for decorator Heresys was initiated in the fall of 1977.

Since there was never a huge amount of Cornwalls built at that time, and since it was no big hurry in making the changes necessary to do the Cornwall build, it was not until around the beginning of the second calendar quarter of 1978 that the decorator Cornwalls got the same drop-in-front kind of cabinet design....for the same reason as the decorator Heresys got the change.

Another thing happened about the same time as these cabinet changes. The change of the NAMES of these speakers happened, too! Here is the "skinny" on that change.

The expansion of the plant in 1976 had brought about a small hiring spree of folks at the plant in order to keep production up. Many of these new hires were good workers, but there are always a few who just didn't "cut the mustard"...and were sent on their way to other pastures. As things went at that time at the plant, most new hires were sent to the cabinet shop to begin with, if for no other reason than to learn how the speakers were built and to help out in production of parts for them. If they turned out to be good at building, they were kept, but if NOT, then they were sent to sanding...to see how they worked out there. If they didn't work out in sanding, then they were sent to finishing, where they started out applying oil finish to oiled speakers...and hand-sanding sealer coats on speakers getting laquer finishes. If they didn't work out there, they normally went to final assembly or straight to shippping. Shipping was normally their last stop before having to find another job elsewhere. The major point here is that, although there were SOME old hands in final assembly and shipping, MANY of the new people in those areas had already "flunked-out" in other areas of the plant..and it was just a matter of time before they were out the door job-hunting again.

OK, remember that the change-over in the build of the decorator Heresy cabinet occurred in the fall of 1977. THAT same fall was a record sales period for the company, with November of 1977 being the first million-dollar sales month in the history of the company! The company had a number of new employees hired-on just to keep up with production in final assembly and shipping that fall. In final assembly, most of these new hires were basically doing mundane tasks that were time-consuming for the regular final assembly workers...such as filling-out the info on the labels for the backs of speakers, moving pallets of parts up to the worktables, dropping backs into cabinets for the regular folks to secure with screws, etc.

It was not noticed so much during the flurry of activity at the plant that fall, but it WAS noticed at many of the dealers, that not only were SOME of the labels on the backs of speakers NOT filled-out properly, BUT many were either not filled-out at all, or were unreadable. It was also noticed that many of the labels for Decorator Heresys and Cornwalls had the "D" left out of the model designation. Up to that point in time, an unfinished Decorator Heresy was called "HDBR"...and unfinished Decorator Cornwall was called "CDBR" ...but many of the labels just had HBR or CBR on them...WHY? Simply put...confusion of the new employees over model type variations. For example, HWL was Heresy Walnut Laquer, so why wasn't a laquered birch Heresy called HBL?...instead of HDBL? Many of these new employees just never could get it straight.

The "powers that be" made a decision at that point...to DROP the "D" from the decorator Cornwalls and Heresys in the designation on the labels...for a number of reasons. First, it saved time, by having one less thing to write on the labels. Second, since all birch Heresy speakers were now being sent out with grille cloth panels included, they were not as much of a "decorator" style as they had previously been. Third, since all the decorator Heresys now came with grille cloth panels, it was necessary to raise their price to adjust for the addition of that panel. It was easier to just call them something besides decorator models...something that more closely aligned the new cabinet style with the cabinet style of the mitered ones with the same grille cloth panels...and those mitered ones had a three-letter designation (generally speaking)...so the new three-letter designation was picked up for the decorator models....leaving out the "D" from that designation.

ALthough the "D" was left out of the new "OFFICIAL" designation for the birch Heresy cabinets, the plant folks still called them decorator models in-house. When the change to the Cornwall cabinets occurred in the spring of 1978, the same designation change to them occurred, the "D" was dropped.

OK...now let me cover the differences between vertical-horn Cornwalls and horizontal horn Cornwalls. From a cabinet-build viewpoint, the only difference is the orientation of the horns and woofer on the motorboard (front panel). Other than that, they are indentical in EACH build! IOW...the only CABINET difference is the router form used to rout-out the motorboard for them!

Some people claim they have "two-port" or "three-port" Cornwalls of either vertical or horizontal driver/horn lens orientation. Actually, the Cornwall only has ONE PORT extending along the end of the motorboard, opposite from the high-frequency "end" of the motorboard. The openings in that motorboard, FOR THAT ONE PORT, are either two or three openings. WHY? Just look on the port as ONE WIDE OPENING, but WITH a reinforcing "STRUT" in its center, to provide some extra frontal structural strength to that END PANEL of the cabinet. In the case of three openings, you have two reinforcing "struts". That is ALL THERE IS TO IT! NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS! BTW...if you measure the TOTAL area in square inches of the openings in the so-called two-port and so-called three-port Cornwalls, you will find out that the TOTAL opening area is almost EXACTLY the SAME!

One note here that may be of interest to some of you. The router forms' BASES for these speakers were originally made out of steel plates, which made them rather heavy and unwieldy to use on the overhead router. Those steel plates also tend to wear heavily on the pins on the router table of the overhead router. Since the easiest way to empty a router form of built-up sawdust is to flip it over, its weight tended to ALSO wear out the poor soul who was stuck routing these parts all day long (meaning ME...for most of the time I worked there!). Also, as time went on and modifications to parts became necessary, it was very expensive to have a machine shop lay-out and mill the openings into new STEEL router form bottom plates. So, sometime around 1978-79, we went to using tempered masonite for the base plates of the overhead router forms, since those could be easily made "in-house" and since tempered masonite had no tendency to wear down the pins on the router table. We still continued to use the steel-base-plated router forms until they either became obsolete or wore out, though. The first forms to become made of tempered masonite were the ones for Heresy fronts, of course, since they were the most used in the plant! When the new masonite bases were made for Cornwall fronts, they had three port openings in them, partly because it made the ROUTER FORM hold up better to use by new employees who tended to let the router pin SLAM into corners while routing the parts...which would have rendered the form useless in a short time if there had only been two port-openings in the base of it! Even with three openings, those bases on the Cornwall front forms had to be replaced regularly thanks to the slamming of the pins into the corners of the openings by router newbies!

One other note...although there is a distinct time at which the vertical Cornwall II became a non-standard build (IOW, it was no longer OFFICIALLY offered as a model), it was still built...even up until I left the company in 1983! It seemed that I had to rout out a few fronts for vertical-horned Cornwalls every year I worked there...due to special orders for them...NORMALLY a special order for a SINGLE one...to match one an owner already had purchased for his previous monaural system, but who was changing over to stereo and needed a second one to match his first one.

I don't know whether the vertical ones were offered on special order after I left in 1983 or not, but I doubt they were offered past the advent of the 1985 Cornwall II version!

I may be stupid, but I can lift heavy things! (And when building LaScalas pretty much with little or no help, you gets lots of chances to lift heavy things!!)



-------------------1983 60th Anniversary Edition BMW R100RT-------------------

[Budman]

this is a decorator, flush mount motorboard

[Budman]

# 2

[Budman]

verticals with the grill cloth removed in walnut

these are not vertical decorators.

[garymd]

Josh is the winner of the Decorator Description Discussion! Very confusing and I certainly understand why Noah thought he was correct after reading Andy's old post.

Josh, you rock dude!! You have an excellent memory. Great info posted by Andy many moons ago. It seems all CBRs of a certain vintage were really decorator models.

[Ave Bona Cornwall]

Now I am really confused, after reading the explaination. So, Conrwalls labeled CBR may be decorators if they don't have a mitred corner? Wouldn't decorators have a wood motorboard, rather than the black?

The cornwalls in the pic had a "W" for 1981, and I was pretty sure they were not decorators (and neither were my own), but now I am wondering if I have decorators because the joint isn't mitred. My '80 CBRs definitely look better with the grills on (black motorboard, 3 port holes). Am I way off base?

[fini]

This conversation would not be complete without a picture of Chris King's legendary CD-BRs. Josh, how's Chris doing?