I Tested Five Different Tweeters In My Khorns

[djk]

Perhaps the Selenium D202Ti should be looked at too.

If you look at the terminated tube response chart, it is smoother than the D220Ti, and less money too.

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-270s.pdf

http://www.martinsoundpro.com/upload/item/6896.pdf

[SkyDover]

Greg,

The Emenince APT-50 driver (same as Crites) is used on three different horns, so model numbers are only horn size
difference, all use the same APT-50 driver. These Emenince models are availabe:

APT-50 - driver only
APT-80 - driver + 80° Horn
APT-150 - driver + 100x50 Horn
APT-200 driver + 90x90 baby-cheek horn

You already have the APT-50 driver (Crites), all you need is the APT200S baby-cheek horns. Many feel the baby-cheeks
is the better choice out of the other two horns after testing/trying.

You can get it for $11.99 each here:

http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/product_view.cgi?products_id=12182

You may need this APT-3 adapter:

http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/product_view.cgi?products_id=3738

to link the APT-50 driver to the APT200S horn for standard 1-3/8"-18 screw-thread Horn.

Emenince Tweeters:

http://eminence.com/tweeters.asp

Emenince Horns:

http://eminence.com/hornflares.asp

You'll want the old APT-50 (Crites), not the new version coming out soon. The new driver is being made by a different
manufacturer and said not to be as good as the old so far.

[greg928gts]

Greg,

The Emenince APT-50 driver (same as Crites) is used on three different horns, so model numbers are only horn size
difference, all use the same APT-50 driver. These Emenince models are availabe:

APT-50 - driver only
APT-80 - driver + 80° Horn
APT-150 - driver + 100x50 Horn
APT-200 driver + 90x90 baby-cheek horn

You already have the APT-50 driver (Crites), all you need is the APT200S baby-cheek horns. Many feel the baby-cheeks
is the better choice out of the other two horns after testing/trying.

You can get it for $11.99 each here:

http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/product_view.cgi?products_id=12182

You may need this APT-3 adapter:

http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/product_view.cgi?products_id=3738

to link the APT-50 driver to the APT200S horn for standard 1-3/8"-18 screw-thread Horn.

Emenince Tweeters:

http://eminence.com/tweeters.asp

Emenince Horns:

http://eminence.com/hornflares.asp

You'll want the old APT-50 (Crites), not the new version coming out soon. The new driver is being made by a different
manufacturer and said not to be as good as the old so far.

Great info, and concise. I understand now.

I see you are new to the forum - welcome.

Greg

[BEC]

I might mention that the Selenium HM17-25 horn could also be used on the APT-50 driver. It is pretty similar to the APT-200 horn and with the APT-3 adapter would work also.

Bob Crites

[soundbound]

Bob,

Do you sell them like that?

[BEC]

Bob,

Do you sell them like that?

Yes, I have those.

Bob Crites

[Arkytype]

Greg,

While I won't question the subjective conclusions you reached after listening to the five tweeters, I will question your choice of sound level meter (SLM) to measure the output level.

The Tenma 72-945 SLM you own has IEC 61672-1 Type 2 screened on the front of the unit. This means that it should meet the requirements as set forth by the IEC, the governing body of these type devices. Well, ANSI also publishes (sometimes conflicting) SLM requirements, too.

Unfortunately, the microphone capsule in your SLM is a poor choice for accurately measuring frequencies above 3 kHz or so. In fact, your SLM's frequency response could be measuring -9 dB @ 10 kHz compared to 1 kHz and still meet the Type 2 IEC requirement! I suspect you are measuring at best a one-half octave range from 6 kHz to 9 kHz with any kind of accuracy.

BTW, what brand and model SLM calibrator did you use before and after making your measurements? Rather than rely on the "factory" calibration to be correct, you should use always use a SLM calibrator before and after each round of measurements.

While you have chosen to question Al Klappenberger's objective tweeter testing articles by concluding, "....this left me questioning the accuracy of ANY of the testing that he did.", I too question the validity of ANY of the measurements you have presented.

I will vouch for Al's ability to perform accurate and repeatable acoustic measurements.The disparity with his measurements was (as I remember it) that there was a possible calibration issue which has since been resolved.

Lee

[greg928gts]

While I won't question the subjective conclusions you reached after listening to the five tweeters, I will question your choice of sound level meter (SLM) to measure the output level.

No problem, I verified the output levels by ear also.

I will vouch for Al's ability to perform accurate and repeatable acoustic measurements.The disparity with his measurements was (as I remember it) that there was a possible calibration issue which has since been resolved.

That still doesn't change the fact that none of the information he provided helped me in any way choose a tweeter that I might like best for my Khorns.

Greg

[dan4510]

I use a jbl 2404 on my jbl/klipsch belle clone. The bass horn is clone of belle with bob crites woofer. The mid is jbl 2380 horn with 2482 driver.

They are biamped at 350hz, let the mid range run out on its on and just use a capacitor for blocking out signals under 4500hz to tweeter. Use a six channel rotel amp.

So, just as the mid naturally dies out, the tweeter comes in.

Sounds dynamic and if its supposed to be there it it, if its not supposed to be there it isn't.

Just sounds natural, fast and dynamic to me.

Better than the highs on a stock klipschorn, etc too. The klipsh tweeter always sounded too harsh to me.

Dan

[Elso Kwak]

Agree on that. I like the JBL2404s

[]

[radiogram]

Greg:

You may want to very explicitly HIGHLIGHT the different crsoover slopes you used in evaluating these tweeters. I recently made a reply post to a Hersey Upgrade post regarding my opinion of CT125 stating that it is a mimatch with low order Hertitage crossovers as there will be more overlap in the upper midrange to lower treble because of the CT125's ability to go lower than the K77. It seems some people have misunderstood me and taken it unnecessarily personal, as to having bad mouthed CT125. Hardly the case. All I pointed out was that the CT125 is a good tweeter provided one uses high slope crossover but with stock low order netwroks it will be a mismatch due to overlap with the squawker. I still stand by it unless techically proven otherwise.

In your tests you had indictaed that with the CT125 the midrange might sneak thru and hence you used 18dB slope for Ct125. This is imporant and in line with my opinion. Hence I feel it is important you very explicitly Highlight the slopes you used in your favourable impressions of all tweeters.

Cheers

[greg928gts]

Greg:

You may want to very explicitly HIGHLIGHT the different crsoover slopes you used in evaluating these tweeters. I recently made a reply post to a Hersey Upgrade post regarding my opinion of CT125 stating that it is a mimatch with low order Hertitage crossovers as there will be more overlap in the upper midrange to lower treble because of the CT125's ability to go lower than the K77. It seems some people have misunderstood me and taken it unnecessarily personal, as to having bad mouthed CT125. Hardly the case. All I pointed out was that the CT125 is a good tweeter provided one uses high slope crossover but with stock low order netwroks it will be a mismatch due to overlap with the squawker. I still stand by it unless techically proven otherwise.

In your tests you had indictaed that with the CT125 the midrange might sneak thru and hence you used 18dB slope for Ct125. This is imporant and in line with my opinion. Hence I feel it is important you very explicitly Highlight the slopes you used in your favourable impressions of all tweeters.

Cheers

I ended up using an 18db slope at 6000Hz for the whole time I did the listening tests and my descriptions of each tweeter were based on listening with that filter.

I did mention that I started off with a 12db slope, but changed to 18db because of the amount of midrange overtones making their way through with several of the tweeters.

After I did the evaluations, I played around with different slopes with the tweeters, and that's when I realized that the Beyma CP25 had significantly less of those midrange overtones than any of the other tweeters. As such, a 6db slope worked great with them. I also think this may have something to do with the Beyma testing about 3db lower in output compared to some of the others with a pink noise test, yet when I listen to them in my Khorns, they balance out just fine. I think the midrange overtones that are stronger in other tweeters, affect the measured output using a sound level meter.

Greg

[radiogram]

Greg:

I also think this may have something to do with the Beyma testing about 3db lower in output compared to some of the others with a pink noise test

1. Based on your test report I figured that you had compensated all tweeters for their sensitivity differences before evluating them. Is that not correct?

2. Also, this is my personsal experience - As we go higher in frequencies we cannot rely on the ear to tell differences in output. I can easily tell a 1000Hz tone at 90db from a 93db tone at that freq. But at tweeter territories I find it hard to detect levels and at 16KHz (the limit of my current hearing) I cannot distinguish a 90dB one Vs 93db One. So in my opinion particlualry at higher frequencies we should rely on the meter rather than the ears. Again this is my opinion and I could be wrong.

[greg928gts]

Yes, I adjusted the output of each tweeter based on the differences I measured initially. I adjusted each time I switched from one tweeter to another. But I didn't change the filter parameters.

Greg

[KanedaK]

I would have really liked to read your comments on trying the Eminence APT-200 baby-checks, it's an APT-50 (same as Crites tweeter) on a baby-cheek 5.9x5.9x5.94 horn(90x90 coverage). Would have been really interesting to see how it compared with the other two baby-cheek horns of the Beyma and Selenium! I'm using APT-200 baby-cheeks and been pleased with them.

I'm starting a new list of tweeters to try, and the APT150 and APT200 are now on the list. I'm a little confused about the model numbers, but I'll straighten it out when it comes time to purchase them.

I'm still hoping to find a tweeter I like as much as the Beyma CP25 that is not a baby cheeks horn. Looking for something flush mount. I'll keep trying.

Greg

I'm using the Beyma in my Lascalas, it's a great tweeter indeed.

Why don't you just build a nice wooden panel for it, that would sit on top of your Klipschorns? could look OK, and you don't have to modify anything to your babies.

[greg928gts]

I'm using the Beyma in my Lascalas, it's a great tweeter indeed.

Why don't you just build a nice wooden panel for it, that would sit on top of your Klipschorns? could look OK, and you don't have to modify anything to your babies.

For my Khorns I'm using V-Trac horns, which have a place to mount the Beyma tweeters on the side - see picture below.

My reference to wanting a flush-mount tweeter is for future projects, where it's just easier to design around.

Greg

[John Warren]

A nice solution to this "placement" issue.

[greg928gts]

A nice solution to this "placement" issue.

Wow, what a beautiful design.

Greg

[deafbykhorns]

What model are these JBL's?

A nice solution to this "placement" issue.

[soundbound]

What model are these JBL's?

JBL Mt. Everest