Upgrading from KL-650's ??? Khorns???

[garyrc]

Gary, can you expand a bit on your thinking of why you might do Jubs if you did it over again. What is your room size and listening habits? Where do you feel your current setup has shortcomings?

• The problem is that I've never heard them. As far as I can tell, every forum member who has them loves them. Many of these folk had speakers from the Heritige series before, or still have them. If I were in the market, I'd find some to hear, either at a member's home, or at a Klipsch facility (if they do that).
• I would wonder whether to leave the Jub 2-way, ot to get the 3-way model with the tweeter, meant for high SPLs in Cinemas. Prob the latter?
• They have the rep having less of a problem with reflections, including ceiling reflections, than Khorns, even though Khorns (controlled directivity) are reputed to have less of a side wall reflection problem than many other wider dispersion speakers. .
• We have a ceiling that is too low for Khorns (IMO) even though some (Artto) have used diffusion to fix some or all of the problem. Our Khorns sounded better ( freer, more open, better bass) in our old house with a higher ceiling. Klipsch recommends a ceiling at least 8.5 feet high for Khorns, and Heyser in his clasdsic review, recommended a high ceiling and thick rug. Our current ceiling is 7' 8." After fooling around with diffusion, etc, we we are finally removing the ceiling this summer, and raising it. The length and width of the room are about 16.5 by 25.
• Our listening habits are: Concert volume, i.e., high SPL, Classical, Romantisist, Contemporary large orchestral, Jazz, and movies restored to their original dynamics (if artificially compressed or limited) by rehearsed riding of the volume control. As I've said before, the tympani, bass drum, and great gong in Fanfare for the Comon Man cause quite a wind in the room, and will temporarily throw my desk out of square. These are peaks -- we would never play continous program material (e.g. electric guitar) that loud. We play a little Rock, but it never seems to sound quite like it used to when bands would set up at Haight & Stanyon and the dirt would bounce off the sidewalk in time with the bass line.

[tragusa3]

Thanks for the input Gary. I still don't know the price point on the Jubs, but I'm almost certain they are beyond my abilities. Khorns would be too, except that you can find great used deals. Hint, hint to anyone in the southeast....

Like I said, a few months ago I actually damaged one of the compression drivers. Klipsch sent a new one with no questions asked, so it all turned out. However, it blew my confidence. I'm attaching a photo of the inside of the KL650 cabinet and particularly the compression driver. To me, it didn't look like pro equipment at all, and I found it lowered confidence even more. Clearly doesn't appear as meaty as the Khorn drivers. And doesn't look or feel like the flagship theater speaker in a package retailing over 10k.

[Kain]

An answer is not worth my time.

Don't take this in a negative way, but why not? I would love to read what you have to say.

[garyrc]

Secondly, this speaker is TRI-amplified internally. 300 watts powering the tweeter, 700 watts powering the midrange, and 1000 watts powering the 12" woofers. This speaker can hit 130 dB.

Where can I find this spec?

Has anyone (manufacturer or reviewers) reported distortion figures, especially ones comparing, say, these to Klipschorns, Jubs, various JBL high end or pro models?

Do you have any "raw" sensitivity figures for the speakers without the internal amps, so we could get a sense of the SPL that 1,000 wats produces when fed into the 12" woofers? "Can hit 130 dB" gives us a hint, but it doesn't say for what duration (neither do the max SPLs published for various Klipsch and JBL units, as far as I know) -- I'd rather get an idea of the program SPL which can be compared (approximately) using sensitivity and power handling figures.

[CECAA850]

An answer is not worth my time.

Don't take this in a negative way, but why not? I would love to read what you have to say.

+2

[CECAA850]

As far as affordable goes, have you considered the RF-7's? They're almost twice as efficient as what you have now and will handle almost twice the wattage. They're not as expensive as K-horns either. You can hang a 300 watt pro amp on eack pair and the RF-7's will just sing. My room isn't as big as yours (20x21) but I don't use near their potential.

[tragusa3]

I've always been interested in RF-7's, but must admit I may have fallen prey to the marketing schemes, etc. Klipsch certainly sells the KL650's as there flagship theater speaker at the price point. And all the stellar reviews on the Ultra2 system. Many reputable reviewers calling the speaker "limitless". Well, I found limits. Looking at the spec sheet though seems to back up your comments. 102db vs. 97db. I suppose that would be a bit of extra headroom right there.

However, I can't believe that the RF7's would me any more than a small step forward. I'm not going to make a change unless I believe it to be a significant one.

So how about the picture of the back sides of the drivers? I thought they looked like toys.

[wuzzzer]

Your ears perceive an increase of 10dB as twice as loud. 97dB to 102dB sensitivity is going to be perceived as 50% louder - that's not a small jump!

[wuzzzer]

Read this post from the AVS Forum:

My turn. Seaton Catalysts...the 12 inchers



I've always favored dynamic capabilities as my main criteria for
speakers. My heros growing up were my Dad and Brad Miller of Mobile
Fidelity fame, both of which made stereo recording of trains.



I inherited this bug and began making field recordings as well. To
reproduce these recordings in room, one needed output and headroom in
spades. So my interests in speakers for the home have always meant high
output designs.



I've had the usual suspects, including Polk, Cerwin-Vega, JBL, Klipsch,
DIY, and even pro gear in our house. Pro gear being real pro gear, TAD
tops and JBL (2)15 subs.



For years I coveted B&W 808s, that's the one I wanted....never
happened. They were 3 or 4k a cabinet, and several hundred pounds
(B&W understood cabinet coloration and built the best cabs of the
day).



Fast forward to today; Mark Seaton Catalysts appeals to me greatly. I've
got to hear them once my funding is in place, but that is my plan.
Freedom from dynamic restrictions from marginal gear is my holy grail.



Never forget one experience that solidified my interest in high end home
audio; HiFi Buys Indianapolis, late 70s/early 80s, Vic Suarez salesman,
sat me in front of some electrostatics, maybe Acoustat, played some
finely recorded acoustic guitar at a very moderate level... I was blown
away w/realism and transparency. I ask him to turn it up to a realistic
level.... he said "that's it, that's as loud as those will comfortably
play". I got up quickly and thought that's crazy...and ever since I've
searched for speakers capable of proper sense of dynamic scale.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18855460#post18855460

I don't really want to get involved in the Seaton discussion but I find it odd that you quoted an AVSForum post by someone who simply has a strong desire to own the Catalyst speaker system. He's never even heard them in person! I'd love to own a brand new Corvette and have never driven one, so would my desire to own/drive one make me an expert in sports cars?

[CECAA850]

Your ears perceive an increase of 10dB as twice as loud. 97dB to 102dB sensitivity is going to be perceived as 50% louder - that's not a small jump!

Actually I've read that 6dB was a perceived doubling of "loudness". Combine that with the extra wattage they can safely take and you'd have, what I believe, would be a substantial increase in volume.

[garyrc]

Deciding what is "twice as loud" requires a psychophysical jugement, and listeners in test groups vary in the number of dB they percieve as "twice as loud." So ... the experimenters way back when took an average. The average I've seen most often is 10 dB.

The importatn thing is that 5 dB is quite a bit ... it would be like changing amplifier power from 100 watts to around 333 wats.

[russ69]

I usually listen with SPL peaks around 105db, with the occassional goofing around at 120db.

OK, I'm not an expert in pro sound but if you want big sound it's going to take some big speakers. Don't mess around, get some big KPTs or Altec VOTTs and smash the requirement with a sledgehammer. You'll only have to do this once and they will last a lifetime. Little speakers play small and that's not what you want, you want high efficiency and a huge sound stage, go big and enjoy. If the cost of new is too much, find a beater pair and some Krylon and do the same thing for less than half the price.

Thanx, Russ

[tragusa3]

Russ, you get what I'm saying! I don't doubt that the RF7's might be an improvement, but I'm not looking for small changes. I want to really bring the heat! I want to play reference volume theater in my large space with enough headroom that I'm coasting along!

Just caught the posting regarding the used KPT904's on craigslist. They were well within my budget, would have done the job....and...unfortunately SOLD. Faster than a speeding bullet.

If anyone ever sees a buy on KPT's, send me a message. I'll drive to most of the east coast for the right buy.

[Kain]

Secondly, this speaker is TRI-amplified internally. 300 watts powering the tweeter, 700 watts powering the midrange, and 1000 watts powering the 12" woofers. This speaker can hit 130 dB.

Where can I find this spec?

Has anyone (manufacturer or reviewers) reported distortion figures, especially ones comparing, say, these to Klipschorns, Jubs, various JBL high end or pro models?

Do you have any "raw" sensitivity figures for the speakers without the internal amps, so we could get a sense of the SPL that 1,000 wats produces when fed into the 12" woofers? "Can hit 130 dB" gives us a hint, but it doesn't say for what duration (neither do the max SPLs published for various Klipsch and JBL units, as far as I know) -- I'd rather get an idea of the program SPL which can be compared (approximately) using sensitivity and power handling figures.

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3569963&goto=nextoldest

[CECAA850]

The average I've seen most often is 10 dB.

I've done some reading, and you are correct. I don't know where I got 6dB from, it must be the oldtimers kicking in.

[CECAA850]

Secondly, this speaker is TRI-amplified internally. 300 watts powering the tweeter, 700 watts powering the midrange, and 1000 watts powering the 12" woofers. This speaker can hit 130 dB.

OK, 4000 watts for just the L and R ft speakers not including center, sides or back. That's more than one 30 amp breaker can handle at full tilt, and that's just for 2 speakers. Am I missing something here, or are you going to have to rewire your living room to push these?

[sunburnwilly]

That volume isn't very big. Isn't such a Jube front end just a little bit excessive for that volume?

Define excessive

[Trey Cannon]

Jubs will run you about 7-8k a pair.

You can get used Khorns or LS for about 1k a pair.

You can get 2 times the volume from the KH or LS than you get from THX product in that room.

I suggest LS because it will be easier to do. KH will have to have a corner.

NOTHING you do will sound like it will in a closed room.

the way I understand your room, the pool is behind the speaker. Which means any speaker you put there will only have the floor for a boundry. You loose the normal "room gain" you get from the walls in a normal room.

you will miss out on some of the "punch" of the system. Go to a live show with the speakers hanging above the stage...they have a large number of cabinets to help with covarge and output.

If you want to move more air, get a bigger fan.

[tragusa3]

Trey, Don't know where you got info regarding a pool behind the speakers? It is a closed space.

Jubs are out of my budget. However, I have been hunting and learning of the Khorn and LS used market. In fact, talking with a fellow forum member right now regarding a purchase on his LS. Price seems fair (750), but it would include some driving time and no ability to demo. At the moment I'm thinking it's a bit riskier than I want to be....but I go back and forth. Would have to decide prior to Friday on this particular pair.

Anyone know worst case scenerio if buying La Scala's? What could you spend on them if the drivers and crossover all needed work?

[sunburnwilly]

Anyone know worst case scenerio if buying La Scala's? What could you spend on them if the drivers and crossover all needed work?

Maybe a hair more than you paid for the THX system . My personal experience aquiring the 5 Belle's I have is roughly $5,500. . Thats considering the speakers , shipping , van rental , gas and crossover upgrades . Your results may vary .