Suggestions on Heresy or Forte

[Ski Bum]

So aside from the slightly lower efficiency of the RB series they do have a tractrix mid/high frequency horn. So why then are the older squaker and tweeter horns better? I am confused which is better in you (collective opinions).

Well, to me it seems that the three way Heritage speakers do a better job of having their individual drivers working well within their respective bandwidth and output ranges, where the two-ways demand a bit more from theirs. Take the forte ii as an example. The tweet covers 6K-20K, mid 600-6K, woofer ~50-600, passive <50. Each of the drivers is well within it's performance envolope, not required to go too high or too low. The RB81's tweet covers 1800-20K, and the woofer covers mid 40's-1800, which pushes them much closer to their respective operational capabilities.

I'm not sure if this is the reason for what I hear, but forte ii's are just so effortless/transparent to the music. Also remember that the meat of the music is the midrange, which the fortes truly excel at. They just trounced RF82's when I had them side by side, so I can't imagine the RF81's faring much better, even with sub augmentation. And the above poster is correct, no sub required for music. Forte's dig surprisingly deep, and it is still tight and dry, even with corner loading, at least in my particular room.

[dtel]

It would be tough to beat unless you want to go really BIG.

Wow Dtel, you're going to scare the guy away. Take it easy at least for the first month then lay it on him....

James

I tried to set the hook to soon, probably jerked the bait right out of his mouth..........he may still be on the line ? []

It was to make him think the Forte is small, I think it's funny when people think Forte's or speakers that size are huge.

[moray james]

The size isssue is not my major concern. Though from a visual point of view smaller size is nice. But a Heresy on a small stand or a Forte ll on the floor or an RB61 on a stand all take up fairly similar floor space. To me it is more about the sound. Getting a Forte ll to position in a given room so the bass works and the stage and image work is harder to do than positioning a set of smaller two or three ways with a pair of powered subs. I have had large speakers Acoustat plus series at 7'10" tall and Karlson K15's amoungst others so I have had some big speakers.Bigger speakers require more room and more attention to placement to get them to work their best.

[oldtimer]

O'tay.

[Ski Bum]

James, it sounds like Heresys and a pair of subs is what you're headed for. It would be much more flexible and forgiving in placement, and you'll still get the Heritage goodness.

These guys make some burly, Heresy capable, adjustable stands:

http://www.soundanchors.com/ (Is that ok? I'm in no way affiliated with these guys, just trying to be helpful!)

[Ski Bum]

oops, double post.

[dtel]

Bigger speakers require more room and more attention to placement to get them to work their best.

[bs]

Sorry but it's the other way around, at least with horns.

[tromprof]

Maybe I have owned Klipsch too long but the Fortes are just not that big. Heresys have most of the good things that Fortes have but just disappear down low. I owned a pair of Fortes for over 20 years (I just sold them last week to make room for La Scalas! [8-|] ). I have had them in a variety of different rooms over the years and if you have decent room for a stereo setup you should have room for Fortes. The Fortes were pretty forgiving in their placement, but the bass could get a little boomy if they were shoved too far into a corner, I preferred a foot of clearance.

[Ski Bum]

Bigger speakers require more room and more attention to placement to get them to work their best.

Sorry but it's the other way around, at least with horns.

Hold on, dtel, you're giving the 'bs' button to a newb, and implying that bigger speakers require less room and less attention to placement? I call 'bs' back at ya. First, James is considering forte ii or Heresys/subs, and maybe RF81s, not MCM Grands. Second, the controlled directivity of horns require different considerations, not less, than conventional direct radiators. While the mids and high freq bands will have much less room interaction than a direct radiator, Klipsch bass is typically highly dependent on room reinforcement which necessitates close proximity to room boundaries. Forte's exemplify this trait, and in my experience pretty much demand placement in corners (with lots of toe-in to minimize room interaction in the mids/highs). Heresys w/ paired subs avoids that constraint, allowing far greater placement flexibility.

Even with the flexibility of a Heresy 2.1 or 2.2 system, I would encourage James to take advantage of the controlled directivity and experiment w/ corner placement of his Heresys. One way to make your walls disappear is to eliminate first reflections, which horns can do w/o room treatment with proper placement. And using the widest spacing possible with corner placement, the result is a HUGE, lifelike sonic image. It's kind of like cans for your whole listening room, without the 'in your head' effect. Just big and bad ***. At least until he decides he wants Khorns.

[dtel]

He may be new here but he has had some real nice speakers in the past and is not new to placement in a room,

I was not talking about MCM's, he had said a couple of times about using drivers from one model in another speaker, so I thought he liked the idea of using the best part from one in another, which many people have done before.

The only design I could think of was the CornScala which has been done by a few times and it has been worked out by people who were able to test the results. That speaker has no shortage of bass and the mid driver from the laScala/Khorn so you know it can fill a room with midrange and it is the footprint of a Cornwall, which is not all that big considering the performance. There is nothing wrong with a Heresy or forte, I have more that one pair of both and love both designs.

I am not the person to figure out technical parts and designs, I listen to the engineers and people who really know what they are doing and follow for what I wanted.

Setting in and listening to a long time Klipsch engineer with more than one patent explain how and why a larger horn couples with the room and is easier to get better and more controlled results was what made me call [bs] in that post.

Moray James [bs] was not said in any way other then I thought what you said was just that. It was " NOT " personal in any way, I would " HOPE " you know know more about speakers and placement than me, I don't really care about the why part of how it all works, all I really care about it if it does and how it sounds. That's why I have traveled to spend weekends with the people who really know how and why it does what it does. I copied ideas from who I consider people who are the best at what they do and do this for a living

I have seen polar graphs and other measurements I myself could not get a total grip on trying to be explained to me, most of it never got into my thick head.

But I trust the people who really know and believe what they tell me.

Moray, I hope you stick around and be part of all of this, just like every you go don't take anything here personaly, if you don't agree with something say so and if sounds like it personal ignore it.

[Y]

[moray james]

lived with dipole electrostaic loudspeakers for a long time I had to get used to playing the room to get the speaker with respect to bass and had similar directional qualities when compared to horn though not quite as directional as some horns are. A forte cabinet which had the passive rariators on the outside cabinet walls (directed toward the room side walls) might make placement a lot easier. However I digress. I am still most interested in the sonic comparrisons of the older Klipsch mid tweeter horns and the newer single mid/hi Tractric horns as used in the R series (RB61 RF5 and RF7etc.). Seems the R&D staff at Klipsch spent some time and money to develope them and had the old standards to compare to. Have they really missed the mark? Did they compromise performance just to save the cost od a small horn tweeter and its associated crossover components?Is there a rift between the old school three ways users and the new school two way with a single mid/hi tractric horn designs? Have the designers lost their way or have the bean counters taken over? Thanks for your input.Regards Moray James.

[twistedcrankcammer]

The size isssue is not my major concern. Though from a visual point of view smaller size is nice. But a Heresy on a small stand or a Forte ll on the floor or an RB61 on a stand all take up fairly similar floor space. To me it is more about the sound. Getting a Forte ll to position in a given room so the bass works and the stage and image work is harder to do than positioning a set of smaller two or three ways with a pair of powered subs. I have had large speakers Acoustat plus series at 7'10" tall and Karlson K15's amoungst others so I have had some big speakers.Bigger speakers require more room and more attention to placement to get them to work their best.

As far as I am concerned, your question is not a question at all. The ONLY question to be asked here is "do I have two good cornes on the wall I am looking at for placement for the "FORTE II", if you do, you have your answer. You can ALWAYS add a sub at a later point, but the tractrix of the Forte' II plus the added bass of properly corner loading the passive radiator is a NO-BRAINER.

Although, from reading your posts, it looks like asthetics are more important then actual sound, for me it is sound regaurdless and the asthetics be Dam$ed!

Roger

[moray james]

I have thick old skin and don't take offense easily. I really appreciate the great community here and am thankful to be able to talk to people who own and use Klipsch gear. I hoe that I am not harping on the differences between the horn types too much, but it seems that some think the new plastic single mid/hi Tractrix horns don't deliver the goods. What do you think? Thanks again for the opinions and ideas. Regards Moray james.

[twistedcrankcammer]

lived with dipole electrostaic loudspeakers for a long time I had to get used to playing the room to get the speaker with respect to bass and had similar directional qualities when compared to horn though not quite as directional as some horns are. A forte cabinet which had the passive rariators on the outside cabinet walls (directed toward the room side walls) might make placement a lot easier. However I digress. I am still most interested in the sonic comparrisons of the older Klipsch mid tweeter horns and the newer single mid/hi Tractric horns as used in the R series (RB61 RF5 and RF7etc.). Seems the R&D staff at Klipsch spent some time and money to develope them and had the old standards to compare to. Have they really missed the mark? Did they compromise performance just to save the cost od a small horn tweeter and its associated crossover components?Is there a rift between the old school three ways users and the new school two way with a single mid/hi tractric horn designs? Have the designers lost their way or have the bean counters taken over? Thanks for your input.Regards Moray James.

Moray,

How old are you??

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with what you suggest above.

R&D staff have to work within the paramters set up for them by the company.

Paul Klipsch was the founder, and the genius behind most of the older stuff and had a more sound quality is "The only thing that matters" attitude.

Paul had two wives but never had any children, so he sold the company to a distant realative, Fred Klipsch.

I would say tht Fred still wants to make an excellent product, but runs the company in a much more buiseness like model as evidenced by company growth in size, profits, and new markets.

The thing you have to realize in a buiseness model is that in the late 1980s, the first surround systems were coming out. People needed 5 speakers all of a sudden, and subs as well in short order. Now we have 7, 9, and even twelve channel home systems. People no longer had the room for 5 large speakers vs: two. People no longer had the money to buy 5 speakers of the same quality as they were spending on only two speakers. People didn't need as large of speakers to go as loud since they now had 5 speakers. Wife acceptance factor goes into the toilet on 5 or 7 big speaker vs: only two. The R&D people needed to make smaller speaker (hence the continuing tendacy to make thinner towers), they needed to bring good sound with a "total package" within certain price points for marketability to sell to more of the masses. It is just as "simple" as that.

Roger

[Ski Bum]

Some of the commercial speakers use the same tractrix midrange as the fortes (see the KI-362 for example). I'm not sure why it is not used in the current Heritage offerings. To me, it seems the Heresys and Cornwalls could benefit. That's part of the reason folks are making Cornscalas, as dtel thoughtfully mentioned. (Thanks, dtel, and sorry for flippin you shit about the bs button.) Heresy cabs may not be large enough to fit the larger horn, but the Cornwall certainly is. As far as bean counters go, if Klipsch were to revive the forte/chorus, they would directly compete w/ Cornwalls. It's too bad, as that line was about as good as it gets for full range performance that doesn't use up an inordinate amount of floor space.

Perhaps someone from Klipsch will chip in. I think you raise an interesting question. I suspect the differences to be so subtle as to not warrant much attention.

[twistedcrankcammer]

I have thick old skin and don't take offense easily. I really appreciate the great community here and am thankful to be able to talk to people who own and use Klipsch gear. I hoe that I am not harping on the differences between the horn types too much, but it seems that some think the new plastic single mid/hi Tractrix horns don't deliver the goods. What do you think? Thanks again for the opinions and ideas. Regards Moray james.

Look at the Klipsch speaker I own presently that are in my post. There are only a hand full of guys here lucky enough to own, or have even listen to as many Klipsch models as I have been so fortunate to have. There is Tractrix, and there is modified tractrics. Sound is subjective, and everyone hears differently. How could any of us hear the same, our outer ears have different shapes, our ear cannals are formed differently, our timpanic membranes are slightly different in size, shape, and even thickness, and our brains map out diferently on where certain function take place and how they take place, so how can any of us hear the same??

My experience personally is the Forte' II offers more detail then any of the Klipsch line up, untill we get alot bigger and alot more expensive. You can get more volume and sound stage from say La Scala, or Klipschorn, but for me, it does not get more articulate then Forte' II until we get too Jubilee, and that is directly a result of modified Tractrix horn. I don't know who is telling you the tractrix does not do it, it is just that even though the newer towers ARE tractrix, they still ARE a compromise in sound to an extent, because of what they were designed to do, and price considerstions.

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

Some of the commercial speakers use the same tractrix midrange as the fortes (see the KI-362 for example). I'm not sure why it is not used in the current Heritage offerings. To me, it seems the Heresys and Cornwalls could benefit. That's part of the reason folks are making Cornscalas, as dtel thoughtfully mentioned. (Thanks, dtel, and sorry for flippin you *** about the bs button.) Heresy cabs may not be large enough to fit the larger horn, but the Cornwall certainly is. As far as bean counters go, if Klipsch were to revive the forte/chorus, they would directly compete w/ Cornwalls. It's too bad, as that line was about as good as it gets for full range performance that doesn't use up an inordinate amount of floor space.

Perhaps someone from Klipsch will chip in. I think you raise an interesting question. I suspect the differences to be so subtle as to not warrant much attention.

I hear what you are saying about modifying the orriginals, but the orriginals even now still, are plenty fine, and many would consider altering Pauls orriginal designs to that ammount would be "Heresy".

If space is not a prblem, nor price, then you owe it to yourself to hear Jubilee, it's modified tractrix horn by itself, is larger then a La Scala, or do as DTEL and others here have done and marry the K-402 tractrix horn to an MWM Bass Bin. If you are not familiar with the other two models I listed, look at DTELs avitar, That Oak binn on the bottom is an MWM Bass Bin, for size comparison, the black thing left of center is the K-402 modified tractrix horn (larger then a La Scala), DTEL uses a pair of both of these for two channel listening, On top of the MWM bass bin off to the right is one of DTELs 5 Forte' speakers that he uses for surround sound, so compare the footprint of the Forte' to his two channel speakers. DTEL has a really great and understanding wife! []

Roger

[Ski Bum]

I have thick old skin and don't take offense easily. I really appreciate the great community here and am thankful to be able to talk to people who own and use Klipsch gear. I hoe that I am not harping on the differences between the horn types too much, but it seems that some think the new plastic single mid/hi Tractrix horns don't deliver the goods. What do you think? Thanks again for the opinions and ideas. Regards Moray james.

The horn in your example is being asked to cover too broad of a bandwidth. Above some frequency (determined by the particular dimensions of the horn) it no longer produces an even dispersion, beaming more narrowly than the horn dictates. At the other end, that horn may be too small to work for midrange, losing the coupling capacity of the horn because the frequencies it's asked to produce are too long for the horn's demensions, yeilding a recessed midrange. I suspect that was what I was hearing with the RF82, or perhaps just the quality of the direct radiator which produces most of the midrange, who knows for sure. The horn you refer to is a compomise of these parameters somewhere or another to meet a certain price point. If you get the chance, listen to the Heresys, fortes, cornwalls, or even some Palladiums where each driver is operating well within it's limits and exhibits uniform dispersion from top to bottom.

One of the strengths of the forte midrange is that it is big enough to cover almost all of the midrange (600-6K), giving great cohesiveness to the sound. The two-way RF82s I auditioned have a crossover point of 2k or so, right in the region of our hearings highest sensitivity, and I don't think they handled the pass-off quite as smoothly as a result. The most notable difference was midrange presence and clarity, whatever the cause. The Heresy is not really much different than the forte in this regard. You're proposed Heresy w/ sub systems would make you very happy, it would absolutely rawk.

[Ski Bum]

DTEL has a really great and understanding wife!

Roger

Lol, aint that the truth! Mine thinks the fortes are huge, but she accepted them without much fuss, so there's hope for us.

I thought we were trying to break in Morey James slowly?

[Ski Bum]

I hear what you are saying about modifying the orriginals, but the orriginals even now still, are plenty fine, and many would consider altering Pauls orriginal designs to that ammount would be "Heresy".

If space is not a prblem, nor price, then you owe it to yourself to hear Jubilee, it's modified tractrix horn by itself, is larger then a La Scala, or do as DTEL and others here have done and marry the K-402 tractrix horn to an MWM Bass Bin. Roger

I tend to agree re modification of Paul's designs, but us end users don't have to satisfy a market like he did, it's all about our hedonistic enjoyment. I appreciate the efforts of the modifiers, even if I've stuck to stock items up to now.

It seems that a two-way Jub would need extensive eq'ing to get good upper freq response with that big ol' horn. I bet it is cohesive as all get out, though. Some day...