Bass comparisons ?

[runninshine]

Chris, thanks for the great info on this topic.

[Cornman]

Seconds on that Thanks, Chris. [Y][Y]

Cornman

[Rudy81]

I recently had an awakening of sorts. I love horn speakers and always have. Recently I was able to hear a couple drum cuts on a pair of urei 813c (jbl) studio monitors and I was awe struck by the shear impact of the drums. It was disconcerting to say the least I played those same tracks on my oris orpheans and the sound is there but the impact was lacking. Now I'm thinking would it be possiable to integrate the 2 have a horn top end with the impact presented by the urei ( I guess Cornwall is an attempt at this integration but I honestly don't recall the impact being this much) Does anyone else have experience with this ??? Were you able to solve it ??? This is in the midbass region so it's not a sub issue. What is the recognized standard range considered to be midbass ??? Joe

Very interesting topic. Personally, I have left the Khorn folded horn...I know, blasphemy....in search of different bass response. I built JC's DBBs and really like how they sound. I am in the process of building a pair of round tractrix horns similar to the Orphean MKII. I plan on using the Faital Pro HF200 driver with the DIY horns. I prefer the bass sound of the direct ported enclosure in my two way setup. I use a pair of RSW-15's to pick up the very low end down to 20Hz.

If you get a chance, match up your Orpheans with a direct radiator low end. You might find what you are looking for. Of course, the other MAJOR issue is the effect of your room on what you are hearing.

[joessportster]

Rudy. I have compared direct radiate against horn loaded with my oris on several occasions I found integration to be the overwhelming issue. Very hard to get right with the speed & effeciency of the horns. I too left the K-Horn but it dealt with soundstage more than anything. As the khorns set in the corner they don't do well at a 3-D soundstage (I'm a soundstage nut. And depth is key) Khorns do great at a wide soundstage but no depth. Joe

[Coytee]

Coytee I only find distortion if you crank up the volume the urie is 96 db effecient and they really open up and sing at about 85-90db range measured at the listening posistion. These actually get painful if you go much higher in volume. Joe

I'm speculating that you're directing towards Chris since this seems to be my first post in this thread.

He's probably been called worse than Coytee....but not much worse.... []

[Chris A]

I too left the K-Horn but it dealt with soundstage more than anything. As the KHorns set in the corner they don't do well at a 3-D soundstage (I'm a soundstage nut. And depth is key) Khorns do great at a wide soundstage but no depth.

Essentially, I see two issues being discussed: Khorn bass and Khorn imaging. The topic that I haven't seen discussed very much here is Khorn depth imaging and how to improve it. I've got some thoughts on that, but I'll pull in an excerpt from another thread on that subject.

1)

Clear air between the speakers:

The issue here is "clear air" between the speakers with no disruptions other than the wall (in fact, imaging will actually be better without front wall early reflections--and I'd be happy to discuss this point...). Few people set up their Khorns with nothing between them.

2)

Khorn coupled bass to mf/hf horn design:

Khorns aren't necessarily aimed at your prime listening position when placed in their corners, and this results in a degradation of imaging performance when they are set up for best bass performance.

The Khorn design requires that you place them tightly in the corners (unless you are using a version with an enclosed back) and center the Khorn in the corners at 45 degrees from each wall--unless you are using false corners. This is called a "coupled design" in which the aiming of the mids-hf's are coupled to the production of lf's, especially in the 200-300 Hz and the 31-50 Hz bands where the effects of not placing Khorns tightly in the corners show up.

You would like to be able to aim the mf/hf at the listening position and not be sensitive to non-45-degree corner placement in order to achieve this. There is an improved speaker that allows you to do this (...guess which one this is...). The Khorn design requires that you either release its top hat from the bass bin in order to aim it, or to provide a false corner that allow you to rotate the entire unit The false corner idea looks to be the best one - then you can aim it at your listening position, and even pull them slightly out from their corners in order to achieve essentially no early reflections between the speakers.

3)

Khorn

time alignment:

I believe that I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the Khorn is the most time-misaligned speaker that I've listened to (you need an additional ~8.4 ms delay for the tweeter and ~6.8 ms delay for the midrange order to achieve time alignment). This has many implications, not the least of which is the lack of impulse or "chest punch" bass response. This is really straightforward to correct but it requires a digital active crossover + tri-amping to correct it. (Something as inexpensive as a DCX-2496 can achieve this). Once you do correct for time misalignment and have the Khorns snugly in their corners (or in false corners), bass "impact" issues will likely disappear. So will many of the Khorn's notable issues reproducing piano and female voice due in no small part to tweeter/midrange time misalignment.

One interim improvement that does not require an active crossover is the repositioning of the Khorn's tweeter on top of the speaker, but aligned with the midrange driver (toward the back of the cabinet). This will improve imaging in a dramatic way, if there is "clear air" between the speakers with minimal early reflections. Alignment can be done by ear, and will generally be achieved within about a 1/2 inch (or about 1.2 cm) tolerance band.

4)

Khorn loss of mid-horn vertical pattern control:

This is another issue that I see that affects imaging: the loss of vertical pattern control of the K-700 horn below about 1500 Hz due to its small mouth size in the vertical direction, and its collapsing polars as it goes up to the typical crossover point with the tweeter--nominally 4.5 KHz. This means that imaging from the Khorn will be very dependent on room acoustics/ absorption (mainly ceiling and floor absorption or heavy diffusion to reduce these early reflections). The collapsing vertical polars will adversely affect imaging performance up high. The only way to correct this is to replace the K-700 horn with a constant coverage horn such as the K-402, etc.. You can also replace the mid driver with a modern wide-range compression driver that can cover the entire band from 400 Hz to 16+ Khz. This eliminates the need for a conventional tweeter with its required midrange crossover and one amplifier channel, assuming you are presently tri-amping to achieve time alignment. If you want to use a "super tweeter" for the extreme hf band, then that is something that can be easily added.

It's not that the Khorn isn't an excellent speaker, it's that its full potential typically isn't reached due to the above uncorrected issues. It doesn't have to cost a great deal in order to correct these and have outstanding imaging AND bass performance.

Chris

[Rudy81]

Rudy. I have compared direct radiate against horn loaded with my oris on several occasions I found integration to be the overwhelming issue. Very hard to get right with the speed & effeciency of the horns. I too left the K-Horn but it dealt with soundstage more than anything. As the khorns set in the corner they don't do well at a 3-D soundstage (I'm a soundstage nut. And depth is key) Khorns do great at a wide soundstage but no depth. Joe

I know exactly what you mean. You might try an experiment. Get a hold of a Cornwall and just run the bass section with your Orpheans. I am fortunate to now use an active crossover with my two way system and like the ability to play around with crossover points etc.

[joessportster]

Rudy. I have been a huge fan of marshand active crossovers for some time in fact I have 2 versions here right now the xm-9 and the tube xm-26. They are great and very quiet. I've been looking at different designs for info. It looks like transmission line designs can offer very good bass. I'd really like to try one with my altec 604 Joe

[Rudy81]

Joe, it sounds like it is just a matter of finding a bin that provides the bass you want. I am not familiar with your crossover, but with my Ashly, I can set the time delay as necessary to match the drivers in time alignment. As I indicated, for my taste, I prefer the direct radiator vented enclosure. At the volume levels for home use, I have not found distortion to be a problem. I have been getting excellent imaging and a very wide and deep soundstage. Which, is how I judge my systems.

[Chris A]

Chris I only find distortion if you crank up the volume the urie is 96 db efficient and they really open up and sing at about 85-dB range measured at the listening position. These actually get painful if you go much higher in volume. Joe

Joe, I generally like to listen to music that is very dynamic, except when reading, etc., including jazz, fusion and classical.

For instance, one favorite cut is "Mars, the Bringer of War" from The Planets by Holst, but I can really only play this when the house is empty: it builds from a low of 60s dBC to probably over 100 dBC over the space of a couple of minutes. I prefer to play it at concert levels and I enjoy very accurate reproduction and a sound stage approaching the actual experience. This is also true for classical organ music (...you might not know that I'm the offspring of a degreed organist and musicologist... [] )

I acknowledge that my listening preferences may not represent "typical".

Chris

[joessportster]

Chris. I did not know that . I can certainly understand your preferances I actually feel like the louder the Ureis play the more they open up especially around 95db. But my ears can't handle volume at those levels more than a few seconds. My left ear gets a static sound in it that seems louder than the product playing and it only stops when volume is at 85db or less. Don't really recall an incident where this started I suppose it's more occpational as iv always been involved with different aspects of construction / maintenance. Joe

[Chris A]

I certainly understand that. My wife has tinnitus, sometimes fairly severely so the volume levels are much lower when she is around. It used to be such that I couldn't even play jazz saxophone CDs in the house... [] Things are better now after auditory training, including AT with my son and one of my sisters. Strangely, during HT mode (watching movies), my wife can watch these at movie-house levels.

This is interesting stuff.

Chris

[SkyDover]

>Rudy81 - I prefer the bass sound of the direct ported enclosure

I had my Klipschorn's setup in different homes/rooms, they sound the best in my current setup with bass and sound-stage, it setups imaging perfect with the way the room is, as well as the best bass it's given in any room before this.

It wasn't until I built my Super Cornwall's from Catbo design here on the forum that I realized how much more I like the direct ported enclosure over the encapsulated bass of the Klipschorn's.

I find the speed of bass to be about the same or certainly enough that my ears don't hear a difference. What difference I do here is a stronger bass center, more tonal separation that is easier to hear in direct firing vs the encapsulated bass. It will depend on how one likes their bass better. The Klipschorn's bass is ported off from the sides and into the room, giving a bit less center bass in more favor of sides to center. The robust fuller bass center of the direct ported bass are more towards my bass liking, so I favor it more because of these reasons and the more direct tonal resolution a front firing bass porting gives in the cornwall type designs.

I like the direct firing bass for my likes much better so that's what I'll be building next in my HT room, but much larger speaker size than I have now. It just all depends on what type bass design you like better!

[oldmako]

The biggest ones you can get through the door?

[joessportster]

Been there done that had 2 Edgar seismic subs a few weeks ago each the size of a refridgerator and just as heavy at 350 pounds each. Joe

[DrWho]

Does anyone else have experience with this ??? Were you able to solve it ??? This is in the midbass region so it's not a sub issue. What is the recognized standard range considered to be midbass ??? Joe

Are you comparing speakers in the same room? My experience has been that 90% of what you're looking for can be achieved with the voicing of any well behaved speaker....provided of course the room acoustics aren't the limiting factor...

[Marvel]

It wasn't until I built my Super Cornwall's from Catbo design here on the forum that I realized how much more I like the direct ported enclosure over the encapsulated bass of the Klipschorn's.

This isn't quite correct. The bass from a Klipschorn often sounds different to people because it is more enveloping. It doesn't point at you so much as surround you.

I find the speed of bass to be about the same or certainly enough that my ears don't hear a difference. What difference I do here is a stronger bass center, more tonal separation that is easier to hear in direct firing vs the encapsulated bass. It will depend on how one likes their bass better. The Klipschorn's bass is ported off from the sides and into the room, giving a bit less center bass in more favor of sides to center. The robust fuller bass center of the direct ported bass are more towards my bass liking, so I favor it more because of these reasons and the more direct tonal resolution a front firing bass porting gives in the cornwall type designs.

Also not correct. The Klipschorn bass isn't ported at all. The sides are the mouth of the horn. A port would be an opening of the back chamber to the outside, and the Khorn isn't designed this way. They sound different than Direct Radiator, front firing speakers. To each his own.

Bruce

[Chris A]

The biggest ones you can get through the door?

[]

[dkalsi]

Joe,

Do you still have the JBL 2245H? If so, try a pair of those under your Urei 813 ... I'll be shocked if you aren't pleased. Those drivers in a 8cu.ft. enclosure tuned to 26Hz or 12cu.ft enclosure tuned to 20hz. (with about 6db boost around tuning frequency) can be really musical. You may need to flip the 813 over to have the tweeter at ear level.

Goodluck.

[SkyDover]

>They sound different than Direct Radiator, front firing speakers. To each his own

Or..... have both! Yes, they do sound different.... but more alike than not. I still like both but do prefer the direct ported bass more. My other half wants to see the Klipschorn's go but I still haven't been able to do that just yet. I'm getting far too many speakers! After the HT build, I'll have to put a stop to things before my other half leaves me! [W]