Informal Poll: Should Cornwall Return?

[HDBRbuilder]

OK, Folks,

I have noticed what seems to be alot of interest in Cornwalls in this BB. Therefore I would like to take a little poll. Please assume that these questions are based upon construction materials and techniques used in the models produced previously. Here goes:

1. Should the Cornwall be made available again? Why or why not?

2. If it is made available again should it be available in its early configuration with vertical horns, or its later configuration with horizontal horns, or both? Why?

3. If it is made available again, should the decorater style be made available, or just the fine veneered style, or both? Why?

4. If the decorator style was made available, should it be offered in the early flush front model, or the later drop-in front model, or both? Why?

5. Should special options in the cabinet be available at, of course, extra cost to the customer? If so, what would you like to see as special options? (ie., industrial finish, handles, front finished the same as the other panels and no grill cloth, metal grating installed between woofer and front in lieu of grill cloth, etc... put on your thinking cap here)

6. What would you consider a reasonable MSRP for the Cornwall relative to the current MSRP for other Heritage models in a "stock" configuration?

7. Should current owners who want a cabinet upgrade or replacement be given the option of having a new cabinet built using the original serial numbers with a special serial number designator attached to denote the upgrade and the original driver/horn/crossover? Why or Why Not?

Thanks folks...I appreciate any comments on this.

[Allan Songer]

I've had my Cornwalls for almost three decades and have had them in and out (usually in!) of my main system a few times. I've always gone back to them--sure there are other speakers that are more accurate, cleaner, etc. In fact I was able to audition a pair of Von Schweikert DB100 speakers last week ($6000/pair) and even though "more" information was getting through and even though they sounded incredibly clean and precise--they left me COLD. They're sterile, almost anteseptic when compared with my beloved Cornwalls! I dunno--maybe I'm full of crap, but the Cornwalls make my jazz LPs sound like live music (and I go listen to live jazz 3-6 times every month!!), rather than perfect sound in a freaking compression chamber!

So I'm all for putting the Cornwall back into production, but I'm not sure there will be much demand for it. I imagine they would have to retail for at least $2500-$3000 a pair and there's alot competition in that price range. . .The Cornwall isn't sexy, it isn't "audiophile" and it will not get much "press" when re-introduced. But it IS the best speaker Klipsch ever made (other than the K-Horn that is!)--I've owned La Scalas and Belles and I prefer the Cornwall. Call me crazy . . .

I have heard the "vertical" and "horizontal" side by side and the "vertical" sounds better--much better. Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that the horizontals were made in '82 and the verticals in '64, but the difference, especially in "imaging" and "soundstage" (I hate those auidophile terms!) was breathtaking.

I would make the Cornwall as "fine furniture" if I put it into production--don't go crazy with too many options--it will just drive the price up.

Cabinet replacementssound like a great idea--I can't tell you how many abused beat-to-death Cornwalls I've come across over the years. But I imagine a pair of cabinets would run at least $1200, right--if not more?

[djk]

Hey HDBRbuilder, did you ever meet John Fricks, or was he before your time? I think a reverse dimension Cornwall would fit in well with modern decor, 16W X 24D. The vertical horn scheme would go well with this too.

[HDBRbuilder]

Allan,

Comments noted, and as for prices, that would have to be determined based on present material cost and labor involved, with a bit of profit, of course. It would seem logical that if replacement cabinets were offered, that the cost would be the same as complete unit cost LESS driver/horn/midrange/crossover cost, since all the labor and materials in the manufacture would be identical except for that component cost.

DJK,

Yes, I met John Fricks, but never really had much chance to talk to him while I was there. As for the reverse dimension Cornwall version you speak of...I don't think it would be logical to change from what went before and offer it up as a return of the Cornwall...besides, with a front dimension that tight, the woofer would be too large at flange diameter to fit between the front glue blocks (3/4" won't fit in a 1/2" space)... and the front itself would have a week point at each side of the woofer. This would likely lead to separation of the glue there or at the least a weakening of the front, structurally, leading to a structural weakening of the cabinet itself...the fronts are what strengthens the cabinet and keeps it square. Another point would be the resizing or redesign of the front port opening/baffle size/baffle placement in that configuration....basically resulting in a new speaker cabinet design using the same components. The object here is NOT to redesign the cornwall cabinet, but to reintroduce it into the line as it existed before. Nevertheless, your comments and suggestions are duly noted and appreciated.

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 04-20-2002 at 10:37 AM

[HornEd]

HDBRbuilder, I am the owner of a pair of '83 Cornwalls... and still caught up in pondering the answers to your thought provoking questions.

I just wanted to interrupt this thread long enough to say what a breath of fresh air that your precise observations and candid responses have been to those of us who know and love Klipsch speakers. Your comments are the stuff that needs to be preserved for generations of future Forum lurkers.

Please understand, HDBRbuilder that the above paragraph was not intended to be a complement... it was meant to be an observation. Complements are meant to curry favor... observations are more telling it like one thinks it is.

Clearly, your observations, candidly based on experience held up to the light of insightful reflection are far more beneficial than a few kind words will ever be. They are "collector" comments that have found a home in the Klipsch file on my computer.

-HornED

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Photo update soon! -HornEd

[Klipschguy]

1. Yes. The Cornwall was one of PWK's most successful designs and belongs in the Heritage line up, IMHO. The extended bass response coupled with great sensitivity makes this a desirable speaker. The La Scala and Belle both are a bass compromised version of the Khorn, while the Cornwall is not (BTW, La Scalas and Belles are great speakers, they just are missing some low frequency extension).

2. Vertical horns, or if cost is a consideration, horizontal is fine since vertical orientation requires mirror image pairs.

3. Fine veneered and raw birch. Raw birch only if it represents a significant cost saving - like Klipsch used to do.

4. Drop in front. Most people will want a grill cloth.

5. Not sure about the demand for Cornwalls in commercial applications. La Scala is probably better for this purpose.

6. $2398 - Standard finishes, MSRP

7. I'm not sure what the demand for new cabinets would be. Since mine are in good shape it's hard for me to guage. I may be tempted to buy new cabinets if I had an option like "restamped serial #'s, vertical horns in miror image pair, rosewood veneer" - be hard to pass up.

Just my opinion, hope it helps,

Andy

P.S. New Cornwalls would have to use the Khorn, La Scala, and Belle drivers or, personally, my desire for these speakers would be somewhat diminished.

[HDBRbuilder]

HornEd,

After reading your last posting, and spending about 20 minutes with my Webster's and an English grammer book, I found myself blushing. I haven't seen language like that used in so small a space since I found myself engrossed in the greeting card secion of a Hallmark store during a temporary "mind-altered state" over 20 years ago!!!....just kidding...LOL!

I am happy that some of the readers here are enjoying my postings, and more than happy to help-out in any way I can...glad you are one who is enjoying my often long-windedness.

Klipschguy(Andy),

Your comments are appreciated and duly noted. OF COURSE the resurrected Cornwalls would HAVE to use the original Klipsch-type components...or else how could they be called Cornwalls?...I would never even consider using any other components in them!!!

[SOUNDJUNKIE]

BRING BACK THE CORNWALL(and others)IN A STEROID VERSION!! Heavily internally braced veneered plywood cabs with thicker soundboard, drop-in drivers, INERT vertical horns, lower freq capability, improved internal wire and crossover for bi-wirability and threaded base to accommodate a weighty speaker stand. Cost is not an issue if it is done right, especially considering the cost of a pair of B&W 803/802's. Am I asking for too much?? 8-)

[HDBRbuilder]

Soundjunkie,

re: "Am I asking to much?"

In a word, yes!

This thread was begun as an informal survey on bringing back the Cornwall, which would mean utilizing the same configurations and interior components that were previously employed. No extensive R&D or major modifications to the basic Cornwall design are a part of this return of a classic speaker.

Your comments and suggestions are duly noted. Maybe someone, or some entity, will note your comments in this thread and deign to produce such a speaker. Or, maybe another visitor to this BB will see this posting and have the ability to help you in constructing a design of this type for your personal use (there are many very skilled and knowledgable individuals frequenting this forum). Let's hope so. Again, thank you for your input.

[SOUNDJUNKIE]

DARN IT!! I was hoping Klipsch would DO IT FOR ME. :-)

[Klipschguy]

HDBR,

Please let me clarify my post script regarding the use of Klipsch drivers. I meant to use the BIG Heritage Klipsch drivers: K55(X), K77(F), and K33(E) - in lieu of HERESEY mid and tweeter compression drivers like the later Cornwalls used (sonically there probably isn't much difference, but somehow it just doesn't seem right).

Warmest regards,

Andy

[HDBRbuilder]

Klipschguy(Andy).

Thanks for the clarification. Duly noted. Not sure if those are presently available, but will ask when the time comes(if it comes).

[ShapeShifter]

I would like to see them produced again, or at least reissued as Limited Issue Production. Probably could not afford them though.

Wes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

[Curmudgeon]

1. Yes, absolutely. It looks and sounds like a REAL speaker instead of a "room treatment".

2. I've never heard a pair with vertical horn orientation but if it sounds better that way then that's how they should come.

3. That should be decided by the builder based on demand and economic considerations, I would rather see one style that comes to fruition than two styles that never get built.

4. The removeable rear panel on my '75 decorator series sure makes them easy to service!

5. I would stick to veneers and raw birch - skip the industrial finishes. Having optional grille colors with front panels matched to the other panels along with newer style grille fasteners (no velcro, please) would be my choice. Being able to run 'em with the grilles on or remove them to see the real wood (not black paint) is my kind of option. I would make grating an extra-cost option for those with untrained kids and cats.

6. Somewhere in the $2000.00 - $2500.00 range?

7. Yes, accidents can happen anytime to anyone or any speaker and being able to obtain a replacement cabinet without searching for a different pair would be desirable. It would also be nice for those who get new furniture and want the wood colors to match, buy just the cabinets and hold on to or sell the non-matching ones.

I do have one suggestion: make them bi-wireable with mildly adjustable crossovers. This would be nice for people with limited room placement options and for those unwilling to spend stupid money on "audiophile" speaker filters (cables).

HDBRbuilder: Thanks for the opportunity to make the suggestions and for your posts on this thread and others, I've enjoyed reading them and the background information is fascinating!

This message has been edited by Audioholic on 04-21-2002 at 11:51 PM

[Audible Nectar]

OK, I've been out of town picking up speakers - gotta jump in here.

1. OHHHHHHH YES!!!!! Did I say yes, you should re-release the Cornwall? Yes, Yes, Yes!! Why? Because it was, and "hope"fully will be, the price/performance leader in full range mains. This speaker has great image, slam, max SPL, and excellent low bass extension (lower bass than the LaScalas and Belles, which makes the Cornwall a much better value).

2. I think the horizontal horns are the way to go, as a stock offering, but consider offering the vertical mount as a special order item. You will have some HT gurus wanting one of the vertical mounts as a center.

3 and 4. By "decorator" style, I'm assuming this means the natural wood baffle (is this referred to as "designer" series?) The customer could choose between the wood baffle look, or to use a grille. I do like the "removable backs" like on the older Cornwalls. Easy to see and access the guts.

6. $2200-2400 range should be appropriate.

7. This is a great idea - there are lots of good Cornwalls out there with bad cabinets and great drivers.

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First we Rock, then we Roll!

A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002

[HDBRbuilder]

Audioholic,

Your input is duly noted and appreciated.

Your comment about the "untrained children and cats" brought a grin to my face. When I bought my HDBL's, even though the company had "officially" just recently made the changeover to the "drop-in" front style of Heresy cabinet, I opted to build the earlier flush front style with no grill cloth attached...is nice to look at pair of speakers with the horns and driver looking back at you surrounded by wood. Well, I had them home for a week or so and a recently adopted orphaned cat took great interest in how the woofers moved back and forth when they were cranked up...so i took the heresys back out to the plant one day and asked for final assembly to install an "industrial motorboard" in each of them....like the ones used on the industrial stage monitor version of the heresy. Ergo...no cat claws get the woofer cone and no grill cloth needed to protect the cone, either.

Industrial motorboard: Basically the black industrial finish painted onto aluminum grating which is securely attached to a black painted 3/8" baltic birch plywood frame with heavy staples. the assembly is then installed to the inside of the speaker front with the grating side of the motorboard forward.

For the do it yourself crowd:

Note: This is NOT for the later drop-in front style of heresy made from late 1977 forward until the advent of the Heresy II model which had drop-in fronts, and front flush-mounted components...but for the earlier flush front cabinet Decorator models....although with minor modifications to the frame of the motorboard so that it clears the glue blocks inside, they CAN be made for the later "drop-in front" models that have the components mounted from INSIDE the cabinet, but where they are relieved of wood to clear the glue blocks, they shouldn't quite touch the glue blocks.

1. Frame: 3/8" baltic birch. Inside diameter (ID) is 1/8" to 1/4" greater than ID of opening on speaker front...(NOTE: this is a bit critical...you want enough wood so that when mounting the woofer to it, the t-nuts' flanges don't exceed the ID, but ALSO so that the ID is just shy of the Hole in the speaker cabinet, so that you have a minor overlap of the speaker front to the hole in the frame.) Outside diameter (OD) 1-1/2"to 2" greater than ID. This will give a minimum width to the frame of 3/4" to 1". Don't make it any larger(this eliminates possibility of vibration).

2. Frame is predrilled to accept t-nuts on one side. T-nuts will be used to mount the Woofer with machine bolts to one side of the frame(be sure that the frame is centered over the woofer when marking the holes for the t-nuts). After predrilling the frame to accept the t-nuts, and BEFORE installing the t-nuts, slightly relieve the area of the wood where the t-nut flange will be so that t-nut flange will be either EXACTLY flush or just a "hair" deep of the frame surface...this is important!! (NOTE: this can also be done PRIOR to drilling the holes by using a brad point drill bit to "break" or scribe to depth the surface of the wood so no chipping or tear-out occurs, followed by cleaning up the inset surface with a spade type drill bit...AND this leaves a nice pilot hole for the drill bits to follow!!!). When you drive in the t-nuts, be sure they dont get off center. Now, predrill the frame again to accept the woofer...these holes are the ones that will attach the assembly to the inside of the speaker front with wood screws...they need to be offset around the perimeter from those with the t-nuts in them, but not very far from those holes, because you don't want the woofer to be very far "cocked" off its original axis from the axis it normally has when the assembly is done so that the wiring reaches the crossover and the speaker back...a good idea is to fit the frame inside the cabinet now to be sure that the orientation of the screw holes for the wood screws (which are, relative to the speaker front, on a time-clock format about 1:30, 4:30, 7:30, and 10:30...AM or PM...your choice...LOL!...this is important to provide best support for the weight of the woofer when using wood screws as short as those used in the heresy...trust me on this one). IMPORTANT: be sure that when marking these holes, NO T-nuts will end up over the Midrange horn flange when the motorboard is mounted...AND be sure the woofer is centered on the frame when marking for these holes, Now, using long wood screws, just BARELY screw the frame to the inside and mark where you will have to "relieve" it so that it clears the flange of the midrange horn. Relieve wood from the outside of the frame where necessary. Lightly sand and then paint the frame assembly flat black.

3. Cut a piece of aluminum grating (the kind that has the little diamond shaped holes ..and is about 1/16" or so thick..Important: it needs to be fairly stiff but not too thick) to just under the size of each frame shape...be sure to orient the little diamonds on the grating so that they are pointing up and down relative to the speaker front for a nice look ...it helps to already have a centerline mark on the frames when doing this to orient the grating. A dremel tool with a cutting wheel on it is a good way to cut the grating so that it doesn't get bent...it is important that the grating is nice and flat. After the grating pieces are cut, paint them with a good polymer textured flat black paint(it is a good idea to give the grating a good rinse with acetone to clean any oils off of it prior to painting it)

4. After the paint on the parts are dry, take some good black silicone caulk or gasket sealer. Apply a THIN COAT (NOT a bead)to the frame on the side that the grating will go and attach the grating to it with heavy staples. Be sure that the silicone does not get on the inside of the frame...JUST the area where the grating will be against it. This has to be accomplished rapidly so that the silicone sets up AFTER the grating is attached. Once the silicone has set up, then you can now apply a good CONSISTENT, EVEN , but NOT real large bead of silicone caulk around the perimeter of the frames on the grating side....just inside the edge of the diameter of the hole in the assembly. Let it set-up overnite...this is the "flexible gasket" to seal the assembly to the speaker front when it is mounted. I know all of this may seem overkill, but you dont want any buzzing or rattling when you crank your speakers up...and you need a good seal on heresy woofers.

5. Now comes the easy part...mount the motorboards in the speaker cabinets, grating toward the front, with wood screws, pressing tightly against the motorboards as you do this, so that a good seal is made and the wood screws don't strip out the wood trying to draw up the motorboards up tight by themselves. (NOTE: If you are doing this on Drop-in front models, it may be a good idea for you to provide some support for the front when pressing down hard against it from inside...hint, hint!!!) Take machine bolts and bolt the woofers to the motorboards. Hook up the wiring inside the cabinets like before, put on the backs, and look at your pretty new grilles. Then, hook up the speakers and crank em up to test for leakage and rattles. If you did it right, as I instructed, there won't be any!!!! Time now for the Snoopy "happy dance"!!!... to the music of your choice

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 04-22-2002 at 11:30 AM

[InventiveAudio.com]

I'm a proud owner of CW IIs and I love them. Do they always sound terrific no!! SOmetimes they sound awful but it must be the mixing because when I put in CD that has been mixed correctly the sound is incredible. Over synthesized music is not a CWs friend. In any event I'll get back to the original question. Yes I would love to see the CW made again. However, I doubt Klipsch will do it because of the girth of the CW and the wife factor. I don't like Bose at all. My friend has a Bose sytem and it sounds horrible but Bose makes small cube speakers wich appeal to many people. I think that is why the Heresy is still in the lineup but not the CW. Maybe I'm wrong. I would love to see the CW sold as a kit with raw drivers and plans. That way I could construct my own original looking cabinet. Fat chance of that happening.

[HDBRbuilder]

dndphishin,

Thanks. Your comments are duly noted and appreciated.

I agree with you as per the performance and value relative to the LaScala and Belle. The Cornwall provides more bottom end in an interior environment, although the others provide a bit better dispersion. The advantage of the LaScala is being able to take it outside for patio parties and such, where there are no corners or walls(Cornwall)...which is one of the reasons many buy them over the Cornwall. The Belle is primarily a gorgeous dolled-up version of the LaScala...with cabinetry designed to make the K-horn and it complement each other....in addition it is not as tall as the Cornwall....which, for center channel purposes gives it more sales than a Cornwall. But a pair of Cornwalls proper placed are wonderful!!!

Decorator models are the birch ones with lap-joints at the corners instead of mitered joints. The ones made before sometime around early 1978 were flush-front ones...with the front being flush with the sides(the sides were lapped over the fronts in construction, and fronts lapped the top and bottom). If they had grille cloth, it was attached to front edges with staples and moulding covered it. The drop-in front models followed these...with the fronts inset and attached to glue blocks inside the cabinet, and the sides only had lap joints over the top and bottom....these accepted the same grille cloth (which was attached to a panel)as the fine furniture ones(ie., non-decorator style) such as the CWO, etc.

[Allan Songer]

Here are my Cornwalls. They are early (1964) and have the grill cloth stapled over the front board--no drop in needed! This looks best I think, but it would be a pain to change the grill cloth. Luckily mine are original and pretty much mint.

[HDBRbuilder]

Allan,

Very nice!!!! I am sure you are very proud of these!! Because I was only at Klipsch from 76-83, and I am VERY aware that other cabinet construction methods were used prior to that period, I have some questions that would be much easier answered if I could see closer pictures of these than our having to write alot out.

I would love to know if these are stained birch decorators with lap-joints or the fine veneers with mitered joints, or some other construction method.

I would also like to know if they are on risers or if that was part of the cabinet design, then(the grill cloth stops above the bottom of the unit from what I can tell in your pic).

A closer oblique pic of one of the upper front corners of the cabinet would answer the first question and a good relatively close pic of the lower front at a slight angle would answer the second question...in lieu of a verbal answer...would love to have this info!!!

On occasion...a RARE occasion, when I was building Cornwalls, I would have to build up one especially for a customer at the customer's request. Often this was because the original purchase order was for a single speaker for a monaural system. These cabinet types varied in construction and one or two had the "riser" integral to the cabinet design instead of it being an add-on piece...I am wondering if yours fall into that design category.

Thanks for sharing!!!!

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 04-22-2002 at 04:17 PM