anarchist Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 Hi guys, Edit! Readers have read though this post and misinterpreted it to be "my" review. It is not. I have made modifications to it to show my statements and those copied from another board. I frequent a lot of boards and came across this thread (quoted below) today. It speaks for itself and I would love to get some feedback from our Klipsch moderators as well as anyone else who has done any detective work. The bulk of the comments are from a guy who sold the Rf-7's in question and I originally though I would be purchasing them - he got greedy and I got KSP400's instead! "Now I know Klipsch is mid-fi and mass-market, but I still expected a bit more out of a $2000+ pair of loudspeakers. 1. The baffle was attached with no fasteners at all. None. Nada. There was a half-as*ed bead of glue on the lower part where the baffle meets the cabinet. As evidence of the poor glue-job, the baffle came off without ripping the fiberboard on the cabinet or the veneer on the baffle. There was very little sealant (silicone) around the baffle to prevent air leaks. 2. The bracing in the cabinet was minimal with a 3/4" brace about 2" long in each corner (as I recall) and a center arched bracing made of the same fiberboard. 3. The much tauted "Monster" cable inside was laughable. It was average 18 gauge twisted copper cable. The crimp connectors were loosely connected to the drivers and would be prone to falling off with much jarring. 4. The damping in the cabinet did not appear to be uniform between the two speakers. It's as if someone folded some carpet padding and stuffed wherever it fit. I would think it possible for some of the padding to get in the way of the airflow to the port. 5. The feet were cheap plastic that appeared to be made by Hasbro. My set didn't come with carpet spikes and I don't know if they are available, but I hope they are better than the feet. 6. The veneer is the sort of veneer you would find on any low-fi or mid-fi speaker in the market. Not terrible, but nothing to brag about. I am not a DIY speaker maker, nor am I intimately familiar with the cabinet making process. But I have had the opportunity to view the insides of many mid-higher end speakers and it appears the build quality of Klipsch is sub-par." A couple of responses from the site: "I guess that's their 'Window pane' framing from the website. Most unfortunate. Pretty much guarantees panel resonances, doesn't it." "They have been building speakers like that for the last 5 years. I've worked at a high end store for 7 years........Klipsch was our low end stuff. We would have cabinets come in where the midrange had come unglued and fallen into the cabinet or ports had fallen off into the cabinet. Magnets have fallen off the woofers, crossovers dangling by the wires..........quality control there has become next to zero. I would say Bose ( hate to say it ) has surpassed klipsch for quality." Pretty scathing comments if you are a Klipsch afficionado and were interested new Reference series; certainly pause for concern. I have long wondered about the build quality and durablity of 'new' Klipsch and this certainly made me worried. ------------------ Home Theater KSP 400's KSP C6 KSP S6's Yamaha RXV995 Music Room Heresy's KG4's KSW200 The move to separates is coming, I can feel it. This message has been edited by crash827 on 04-23-2002 at 09:38 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 crash827, Well you are right on a few points,the so called Reference series(and many Klipsch speakers)finish quality is nothing to write home about.The bracing is sparse. I have a few Dynaudio Contour speakers and Spendor and lets just say the Dynaudio and Spendor finish(rosewood and bid eye maple)makes Klipsch "cherry" finish look like wallpaper. LOL The thickness of the Klipsch finishes is poor and as thin as paper.The Dyanudio finish is thick and will not peel off. The bracing is also average at best,Dynaudio for example uses MDF finished on both sides(Contour and up)and resists to moisture and denting damn well.Just dont dent a Klipsch or it starts to peel off like mega sale coupons. The new Klipsch "copper" colored cones are fragile and dent easy.The Dynaudio monopiece cones(mid-bass and bass drivers)are ruged.The Klipsch rubber sourround also could unglue itself like some Mission 765's I had!The Dynaudio rubber sourround is donded to the cone in a way it will NOT separate. The so called Z wiring,I saw it.Its nothing more then a thin Monster wire.Here more would not be needed.As Dynaudio and Spendor use regular quality wire and their speakers sound faboulous.A non issue really Some speakers do use Kimber,MIT or Cardas wiring but its more show off then real sonic advantage.Here prove me wrong The cheapo legs do look like dollar store gear.At least Klipsch sould mold them for a metal alloy.Dam it does not cost a fortune and the overall feel and look of the speakers would be much better. The grills are also dumpster looking,the grills on the RF-7's are two joined plastic parts covered with tissue.Nothing great,and they cost way too much when you want a replacement. The driver quality is very good,the twin 10" drivers and the 1.75" compression tweeter are high quality parts.The crossover is also well withing the standard in this price range. SO besides the cheap grill,feet and thin finish the rest is A ok.And above all the sound quality is very good. If you start to compare Klipsch $2200 speakers to $7000 Dynaudio Contour 3.3's and Spendor FL-10's its just unfair,no wonder you get more.And then you could compare them to Wilson WATT/PUPPY IV floor standing monitors,the built quality of these puts to shame just about any speaker(cabinet so inert and dampedit feels like it was carved from a rock). Overall the RF-7's are great speakers and a great value.And I know quality,I heard most of the very finest and a good dozen at home. TheEAR(s) Now theears This message has been edited by TheEAR on 04-23-2002 at 07:52 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathon Man Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 No need for redundancy so Im going to retract my comments since the Ears comment, and the one that I had posted basically says the same thing. This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-23-2002 at 10:37 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary W. Graley Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 Well this post certainly has me giddy, head swimming in regret no doubt, but mine do sound great, as well as the RC7 center, what concerns me is...how long will they remain sounding this good before they start to fall apart? With sound beating against the walls 4 to 5 hours a day, that has to take a toll on the structure, and if there is any truth to that first post, yep I'm concerned, this is the MOST money I've EVER spent on speakers in my short 48 years of life and don't expect to upgrade any time soon, funding wise will keep that to a minimum anyways. I sold a considerable amount of my knife collection to feed this home theater virus that I contracted since getting my dvd player, I do miss the knives! So what is the warranty on the RF7s? checked and confirmed that it is 5 years, so hopefully they will hold together for that long? If they structurally start to come apart, what recourse does one have? Sleepless in PA, G2 This message has been edited by Gary W. Graley on 04-23-2002 at 09:26 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 "If they structurally start to come apart" The pressure inside the cabinet and stress on moving parts is not great to the point of causing malfunftion. Remember at 102dB 1W/1M your ears will start to come apart well before the cabinets do. LOL The first post could let many to think the RF-7 construction is lousy.Its not true,its simply not top notch.This is no way means the R series speakers will fall apart.Lets not distort things here. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathon Man Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 100% Ears, Hey do you think that sticker boy has been moved to stuffing? :0 ------------------ MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted April 23, 2002 Author Share Posted April 23, 2002 TheEars, This is no way means the R series speakers will fall apart. Will you personally guarantee that with funding to back it up? The first post could let many to think the RF-7 construction is lousy.Its not true,its simply not top notch. I think this argument depends on the value you impart to a dollar. Cheap department store speakers don't simply fall apart either - but they don't cost $2000. The concern should be will that lack of bracing lead to poor sound just a few miles down the road when the cabinets flex a bit more than they should. For $2K, I expect adequate amounts of glue to be used to stiffen and strengthen the cabinets. I expect ports not to stray. I expect adequate bracing to prevent undesired flexing. I expect a veneer that will be somewhat resistent to scratches and allow me to sand minor scratches out of the finish. I expect some science to be used in the quantity and placement of damping material. I expect the grill to be far more substantial than what is on the RF-7's. I don't expect a cabinet that a middle-school student could build in his first woodshop class to be better built than my $2K speakers. I love the sound of the Reference 7 series - I would have bought them, and still may, were it not for my stumbling across my KSP400's. I have recommended them to my friend who is purchasing 3 pairs for his HT. I have also read the horror stories associated with the build quality of the legend series, Klipsch's acknowledgment of those problems, and many of those same design and QC issues mentioned then have just been pointed out to be part of the Reference series. That scares me, particularly after noticing the port on my KSW200 subwoofer was loose due to... poor application of glue. I am still interested in what us Klipsch nuts think and hearing from Klipsch themselves. Many of the 'heritage' guys have long cried out about the diminishing quality. As someone who owns Klipsch and will own more Klipsch, I am very concerned that my $2K is buying speakers that offer $200 quality (I am not talking about sound.) My fears could be easily alleviated by Klipsch extending their warranty from 5 to say 10/15 years. If the quality is not suspect, the increased warranty should have no effect on their bottom line and should not be objectionable. Everyone claims quality, not everyone backs it up. (Bryston does!) ------------------ Home Theater KSP 400's KSP C6 KSP S6's Yamaha RXV995 Music Room Heresy's KG4's KSW200 The move to separates is coming, I can feel it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montigue Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 the cost of labor is taking quality right out of many product's we buy today. Not to mention companies are always trying to find ways to cut cost to raise profit margins. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE Although if I had $2000 to spend on speakers I would still buy the RF 7's..They are awesome! ------------------ Klipsch 5.2 mains Klipsch 4.2 rears Klipsch KLF C-7 center Mitsubishi 55" HD widescreen tv Toshiba pro scan DVD audio player Sony Hi-Fi VCR player Harman Kardon AVR 65 receiver SVS 20/39 subwoofer w/Samsom S1000 amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 I see this as a matter of dollars. For example, if you want the qualities you listed as desirable, you can find it in the current or used Heritage line (as well as the "descendant" models such as Cornwalls, Chorus, Fortes, etc. available used). New Heritage will cost more than $2000. While it is true that recent Heritage releases aren't the same build that they used to be, they are still better than most sold at the time. I have 14 year old Cornwall II's - supposedly what would be considered the "lesser quality build era" and they are still rock solid and good sounding. I am still proud to own them. I disagree with the "Bose surpasses Klipsch for quality" opinion as well, especially in the driver area. Klipsch drivers will smoke a Bose easily. I do agree with some comments regarding the general build of the RF series though - cheap feet, grills, and cabinet build don't help the RF series. I think that a customer would gladly pay a few bucks extra for a set of RF-7's with the proper aesthetic appointments. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! A Beast is Lurking.........To be unleashed May 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beday00 Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 i'm not saying i wouldn't like stronger/better cabinets but everything is a tradeoff and it could be that klipsch decided to go with better drivers, tweeters, and crossovers and to cut some corners on the cabinets. just my 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Oh dear. If this is true, my "Coming soon..." might become "Never." ------------------ Coming soon... Home Theater: Projector: (Still deciding) A/V Receiver: Denon AVC-A11SR (European version of Denon AVR-4802) DVD Player: Denon DVD-3800 Center: Klipsch RC-7 Mains: Klipsch RF-7s Surrounds: Klipsch RS-7s Subwoofer: SVS CS-Ultra w/Samson S1000 amplifier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 TheEARs' post makes me curious. Of course I would expect superior build quality in a $7000 speaker pair. But how does the build of the Reference series compare to others in its price range? Anyone know? Looking at the build quality of the older models (my Chorus for example)...it would take quite a bit more to duplicate that today. There is a rule of thumb that says you would double a dollar figure every ten years to bring it up to "today's" dollars. (I know that is just a rough rule of thumb...) Using that formula, my $1500 MSRP 1989 Chorus's would be about $3000 today. That extra money (versus the cost of the RF-7) would pay for extra build quality. So, I think it comes down to economics -- to duplicate the build quality of the "Heritage" speakers in the Reference line would probably put them at a price point that Klipsch does not want to be at. Doug ------------------ My System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 It does come down to economics but I disagree with your preceived end result. Companies sacrifice quality for higher short-term profit margins. Greed. I simply do not believe that a $2200 set of speakers should offer the same cabinet construction that dime store speakers offer and that, in essence, is what we are talking about here. Bear in mind a couple of numbers. $2200 vs. $1400. Same speakers, the difference is 'additional' profit the dealer could have made. We are talking a minimum of $800 in profit per pair. This exludes the profit Klipsch makes up front. The fact is Klipsch could increase quality to where it should be and still make a large amount of profit. Greed. I was reading some information from a guy in the DVD player manufacturing business. Discussing quality, he mentioned if they included $40 worth of 'upgraded' parts in the player, they would have to increase the retail price by $400-$500 to cover the various profit margins and markups. $40 in cost = $500 in price? Greed. ------------------ Home Theater KSP 400's KSP C6 KSP S6's Yamaha RXV995 Music Room Heresy's KG4's KSW200 The move to separates is coming, I can feel it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Okay, now I am seriously re-thinking my purchase of the RF-7s, RC-7, and the RS-7s. I might go JBL now. ------------------ Coming soon... Home Theater: Projector: (Still deciding) A/V Receiver: Denon AVC-A11SR (European version of Denon AVR-4802) DVD Player: Denon DVD-3800 Center: Klipsch RC-7 Mains: Klipsch RF-7s Surrounds: Klipsch RS-7s Subwoofer: SVS CS-Ultra w/Samson S1000 amplifier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Pidass Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 VINTAGE Klipsch RULES! JBL ShmayBL....Seriuously look into some vintage Klipsch. Yes the quality of the 70's and earlier is still evedent in these beauties and the sound quality is nothing short of ....... Regards, Stuf>------------------ '81 Cornwall 1 mains B2 Crossover '73 Heresy Centre '78 Heresy Surrounds Paradigm PW2200 Sub Subwoofer Marantz SR8000 AV Receiver Hitachi 53" RPTV 53SBX59B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddvj Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 I just got my RF-7's yesterday and couldn't be happier. Of course I'm not a geek who takes his electronics apart and tweaks the crossover, etc. The speakers sound great and I will not let some chump who decided to rip apart his speakers, talk about how cheap they are and then turn around and sell them for too much money (the first post says he got greedy). I'm not the LEAST bit worried about the speakers falling apart and will not lose any sleep about it. Kain, good idea, don't buy the speakers you like because of one guy's opinion. ------------------ My Home Theater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 Hi Todd, Let me put some dollar amounts to that purchase and value to greed. They were brand new RF-7's which had sustained some minor damage in shipping. A driver was damaged and the speakers had some surface scratches. He bought the speakers from the shipping company, purchased a new driver from Klipsch, and replaced it. Hence, the opportunity to actually look at the interior construction. He had made an offer to sell me the speakers for $700. While I was getting back to him, he got a few other calls and decided he would allow the auction to play out rather than sell them to me for the $700. He sold the speakers for $800. At that price they were a steal but I had already shifted my thoughts to the KSP400's which were a far bigger bargain. Americans trade-off quality far too easy relative to cost. It is a personal decision and many won't care about the degree of quality built into their speakers. I do. I created the post only because many of the issues mentioned with the R series were acknowledged failings of the Legend series and Klipsch claimed to have resolved those issues. It doesn't appear they have based on his findings. Does that mean I shuffle off and buy Bose? No. It does mean I purchase the speakers for a price that reflects their value to me and that is no where close to MSRP. ------------------ Home Theater KSP 400's KSP C6 KSP S6's Yamaha RXV995 Music Room Heresy's KG4's KSW200 The move to separates is coming, I can feel it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddvj Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 I bought mine for $1012. I knew I'd like the speakers because I had listened to them in the store. But when I got them home I REALLY liked them. That's all that matters to me. Like I said, I'm not in the habit of taking my equipment apart, and don't really have anything else to compare to, but I like the sound, was worth every penny and them some, and that's all that matters to me. ------------------ My Home Theater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary W. Graley Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by toddvj: I bought mine for $1012. I knew I'd like the speakers because I had listened to them in the store. But when I got them home I REALLY liked them. That's all that matters to me. Like I said, I'm not in the habit of taking my equipment apart, and don't really have anything else to compare to, but I like the sound, was worth every penny and them some, and that's all that matters to me. Well I wish I had gotten mine at that price, but it wasn't to be, paid $1,800 for mine so it's a bit of a pinch I guess but for my dollar they sound and look great and nothing seems out of place to me at all, if the speakers in question were damaged in shipment that's a whole different ball game as opposed to those that weren't. I'm not one to open things up either, had a set of DBX Soundfield 100 speakers that the wire terminals would spin, so I had to open it up and tighten down the connection posts on the cross over board, but thats about it. Those were some good speakers for music but didn't cut it well for HT. I'm going to pop in a DVD, sit back and be blown away for a bit... I don't want to get into listening to more speakers for a LONG time, it took a while to commit to these as it was! Now I need a rear center channel speaker... G2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximo Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 I don't think Klipsch has authorized dealers that ship speakers, besides ubid, and they don't have rf-7s yet. Soo really you dont know if he got look-alikes or the real deal =/. Even so for the money there is no better speaker to get imo. I dunno about you but I dont kick around my speakers. Normal playing isn't going to break a driver loose. Also if he payed 2k and bought them online I think he got ripped off by that dealer, should have payed more like $1500. This message has been edited by Maximo on 04-24-2002 at 05:57 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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