Klipschorns Bleeding My Ears.

[crd97086]

As I mentioned, the your sound is only as good as the compression driver you are using. It creates the sound that is amplified by the horn. Specifically, the BMS 4592ND-MID 16 ohm midrange driver. If you had both the mid drivers that Klipsch uses and the BMS, you could hold them up to your ear and hear the drastic difference of the sound.

Yes, you have to spend some money to change out the driver, horn and crossovers. The question is, do you truly want the best sound. If you keep playing around the same old components, you will get the same old sound. That is up to each person's desires and pocketbook. The compression drivers are a little over a $1000 per pair. Take a look at the Volti Audio site and look at the packages that drop right in. The work has been done for everyone who wants to truly make their Klipschorns the best they can possibly be. Their is even a tutorial on installing them into your Khorns, with Greg Roberts wife, Laurie, actually doing the work. I invite you to consider the best sound possible.

[2BRNot2B]

My ultimate plan was to update the K-horns with better components. I just wasn't planning on upgrading so soon. Since the mid-range can be pretty difficult to listen to, I'll probably have to complete this sooner than later.

Can these K-horn upgrades be completed easily? Here's the low-down on my mechanical skills. Very basic. Replacing the speakers seems pretty basic but the wiring and soldering scares the bejeezus out of me. I tried to self-study electronics from old WWII manuals many years ago....then the chapter on Ohms Law came up and suddenly it looked like too much work and I bailed-out. Really, I'm a music lover first. Not totally helpless, just fearful of screwing it all up.

What idiosyncrasies are involved in replacing the AK-3 crossovers in 1993
K-Horns? I understand there is a second set of crossover
components in the woofer cabinet that have to be bypassed? Is this easy
to complete? Would I need new woofer doors? Gotta drill new holes?

Thanks for hanging in there with me....Rob

[Invidiosulus]

I recently upgraded my Belle center channel (between the two already upgraded Klipschorns). You can see the arrangement in the photo.

Again, I used my ALK crossover with the existing K55 driver and the K-77 tweeter.

Chris

all that work and your drivers are still mis-aligned. Imaging really improves when everything is aligned vertically and your tweeter and midrange are time aligned.

[LarryC]

Can these K-horn upgrades be completed easily? Here's the low-down on my mechanical skills. Very basic. Replacing the speakers seems pretty basic but the wiring and soldering scares the bejeezus out of me. I tried to self-study electronics from old WWII manuals many years ago....then the chapter on Ohms Law came up and suddenly it looked like too much work and I bailed-out. Really, I'm a music lover first. Not totally helpless, just fearful of screwing it all up.

What idiosyncrasies are involved in replacing the AK-3 crossovers in 1993 K-Horns? I understand there is a second set of crossover components in the woofer cabinet that have to be bypassed? Is this easy to complete? Would I need new woofer doors? Gotta drill new holes?

Well, radical surgery is definitely not anything I would try, and I think you should listen carefully and critically to any supposed solutions before deciding they'll do the trick for you. Some aftermarket crossovers and horns I've heard won't satisfy everyone IMO.

I suggest you try finding a current La Scala or Klipschorn to listen to, to see what you think. Reactions and reports on the La Scala II, for example, have been very favorable. I really like them! Several years ago, I replaced my AK-3's with AK-4's in my K-horns, and have been very happy with the result (I can't hear much difference with the current AK-5's). Garymd, who lives in the area, installed DeanG xover's, and has gotten excellent reactions from everyone who has heard them.

It would likely be easier and cheaper to make those kinds of Klipsch-developed changes than to experiment with dramatic changes you may not like. You should beware of getting into tangles like Don Richards (above) warned against: "2 inch drivers can be made to work well, but then you will need to change the horn and crossover and take the time to tune the system to work with those components. At that point it might be better to go with an active crossover and triamp the system along with delaying the MF and HF to the woofer for time alignment. This would be an ultimate setup that would allow for greatly enhanced adjustability and performance." That's not for me, I can tell you!

My AK-4 kits consisted of the new crossovers mounted on new bass bin doors, new new K-77's and K-55's designed to go with the xovers, and connecting wires cut to length. The xovers had new crossover points of 450 Hz and 4500 Hz. The end result, IMO, was a more seamless and better blended sound. The last time I asked, the price for a pair of AK-4 kits was less than $1,300. I suggest you discuss this with someone at Klipsch if you're interested.

All that said, it doesn't sound to me like your problem has been defined.

[T.H.E. Droid]

Is there something in the water in the Detroit suburbs? Sounds like a replay of my situation, with some differences.

The speakers are already being pushed by a tube amp, so that line of reasoning isn't going to work unless the argument that just any tube amp won't do, it's got to be the right one. Of course this advice will fly in the face of reason. If the Klipschorn can't sound acceptible without a certain amp, wouldn't PWK have insisted it go out the door so equipped? To date, I've tried my Khorns with six different amps, including a tube amp, and all sound about the same at normal listening levels.

I know from long experience with horn speakers that, to me at least, the mid horns and often the tweeters, too, have way too much output for my tastes. My first Klipsch speakers were LaScalas, and I have Cornwalls and Khorns now. I also have a set of JBL L300 Summits, which are very similar to Cornwalls abeit higher end speakers. All have either needed to have the midrange toned down with either equalization or the built-in level controls in the case of the Summits. I even gave a pair of Speakerlab K's to my uncle, and we had to rebalance the mid and high levels to get them to sound right to our ears. (Speakerlab K's are Khorn clones)

At this point I certainly don't suggest upgrading your crossovers. Recapping, perhaps, but don't change them out. I had a bad tweeter so I put in Crites A/4500 crossovers and tweeters. I'm really pleased with the tweeter performance, but the Crites crossover replaced the stock second order low pass filter with a first order filter, which reduced the bass crossover slope to 6db/octave. In my opinion, this really degraded the woofer performance, especially in the crossover area, and produced a murky, muffled, woody high bass sound. Switching back to the Klipsch low pass filter improved the mid-bass sound.

I did get some L-pads to help balance the mids and highs but I've taken them off temporaraily until I get the bass issues resolved and make sure everything is working properly. They'll go back on when this work is done. BTW, making sure the speakers are fully seated into the corners made a big difference in my case.

At the very least, I recommend you put an equalizer into the system to see if you can reduce the mids to comfortable level. Once you see how much you need to back down the drivers, you can decide how to address the issue permanently. I've gotten advice from a number of people that counsel against the use of L-pads, yet speakers manufacturers use them on many speakers. I would certainly call my JBL's audiophile quality, and the Lpads on those speakers have really made a big difference in the sound quality when set to the right level. (to suit my ears, of course.) None of the people recommending against using L-pads could give a technical reason for not doing so, and electronically speaking, I can't think of one either.

Good luck and don't give up on them.

[Quiet_Hollow]

None of the people recommending against using L-pads could give a technical reason for not doing so, and electronically speaking, I can't think of one either.

See Al's last bullet statement here: http://www.alkeng.com/pad.html

You have to run the math, but it is possible to drop the damping ratio too low (less than 20) using an L-Pad if a network isn't intended for one.

See also: http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/understanding_the_relationship_between_amplifier_damping_factor_impedance_c/

[LarryC]

Sometimes the metal K400 horn can ring in the 2-4 kHz range. This can be solved with rope caulking or other damping methods if that is the problem. A forum search will turn up lots of information on that subject.

This is very easily solved by buying a pair of the current-model K-401 resin midrange horns. I couldn't tell much difference from the metal K-400's, but they're only $50 or $100 a pair and you don't have to caulk or dampen them.

[JJkizak]

Would it be possible that your hearing response would be "peaking" in the midrange?

A good frequency response test with the ratshack meter might be enlightening.

JJK

[JJkizak]

Delete. This forum is acting up again conflicting with other messages.

[2BRNot2B]

Interventions completed thus far:

I have done my best to tighten/seal the bass cabinets to the concrete walls via layered plumbing insulation and pushing the speakers as tight as possible into the corners. Clearly the concrete walls are not perfect 45 degree angles but, after sealing and Herculean-pushing, I don't not think a tighter fit is possible. The plumbing insulation is located at the points the rear bass cabinets and rear midrange top sections touch the wall. I did not seal the side grills, it seemed fruitless to do so.

To actually identify the sound problem, I ran a sound frequency test by listening to an old Stereophile test CD that measures such. This may not be the best method but it's all I have and seemed rational.

Based on my listening, it is quite clear the 400 Hz to 800 Hz and 2 kHz to 2.5 kHz frequency ranges are too sharp. The worst (headache-zone) is the 500 Hz to 630 Hz range and 2kHz range. Like hot light sabers jumping into one's ears, it's aural poison.

Also, within the mid-bass zone of 80 Hz to 40 Hz the frequency response is fair to poor. The low bass zones of 40 Hz to 31.5 Hz are poor. Upper bass 200 Hz to100 Hz is excellent. Bass starts going downhill below 100 Hz.

Moving the cabinets tighter into the corner improved bass slightly but did more to improve image and focus. Everything is less blurry, one can pick out the instruments better. Certain recordings float before the ears. Overall I rank current sound a 7.5 on my personal 1-10 scale. Better than most but not as great as I expected. Ain't giving up....

Summary= MARGINAL BASS & HOT MID-RANGE.

Who to point the finger at???

[JJkizak]

I run my 30hz to 60hz bass about +16 db, the 100hz to 400hz -2 db, and the rest is pretty flat. The center Cornwall handles these increases just fine also. So does the RWS-12 sub. The walls in my house do not however.

JJK

[Quiet_Hollow]

Who to point the finger at???

When running full-range 2 channel, you're at the complete mercy of room acoustics at frequencies below 200 Hz and even up to 500 Hz in some instances. EQ is the only weapon of choice. As for the hot midrange two things come to mind: 1st reflections from the squawker coming off the floor (if it's not plush) and if you haven't got the bass sorted out, the mids will always be more pronounced. What are you used to listening to before the big K's?

[LarryC]

I still think there's an undefined problem hiding in there somewhere. Have you looked into whether the drivers are in phase with each other? If the bass and mid range are out of phase, there could certainly be a sharp-sounding hole around the xover point. You might try reversing the base horn wires at one of the xovers, and see if that side sounds better or worse than it did before.

Symptoms of out-of-phaseness would be (1) the sound jumps from one horn to the other, when you move your head/ears between the mouth of the mid and the bass horns, and your ears feel pulled in opposite directions; and (2) there is a hole in the frequency response, with excessive highs and weak lower frequency response around the xover point. It wouldn't hurt to try that test with the wires reversed and then again after being put back.

You should try that one side at a time. You may have bass and mid drivers out of phase on one side but not the other.

Repeat the process to see if the mid and tweeters are in phase, on both sides. This can get complicated with 6 drivers (three on each side) involved.

I would definitely look at the phasing issue, given the symptoms.

[2BRNot2B]

"If you haven't got the bass sorted out, the mids will always be more
pronounced. What are you used to listening to before the big K's?
Have you looked into whether the drivers are in phase with each other?"

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Agreed, since bass is disproportionate to mids, the mids are naturally potentiated, though I still think the degree of mid sharpness is due to something else. Listened to Sound Dynamic 300ti's for 15+ years. Much different than a K-horn. Great tweeter, fair mid range, marginal bass. Great imaging and focus. Overall very sweet speakers but too small for room.

Speaker sound in phase. I ran a phase testing CD without anything remarkable happening from what was expected. Though now you got me scared...I don't wanna dig inside those cabinets.

[LarryC]

I ran a phase testing CD without anything remarkable happening from what was expected.

Well, that may settle the issue, but I'm not sure that would get at the drivers on one side being out of phase with each other.

I still think you might try a trial of reversing various leads at the xover. That way, you don't necessarily have to go into the cabinets, by which I think you mean going into the bass bin.

I can't draw a picture of this, but looking at the edge of the xover where the wires enter, you see, from right to left 2 wires each for:

the

input, + and -

;

the

woofer + and -

;

the

mid/squawker + and -

;

the

tweeter + and -

I'm just suggesting, to assure the phase question, that you try reversing the + and - to the woofer to see what happens and if reversing sounds better. Try that on one side, and then again on the other, to make sure this isn't a problem on just one side.

While you're likely not to find anything out of order, I myself would run through the process to be sure. Also, please be sure that all six drivers (3 each side) are working.

I don't see any reason to get into either bass bin for now. You would, if you got an AK-4 kit, but that's not that big a challenge.

[pzannucci]

Has there been a correlation to the impedance of the khorn in the areas of concern? It looks like the khorn has a very high impedance in the 2K area. That along with a tub amplifier that my be happier driving those impedances, the sound may make some sense. Since this is a tube amplifier it may very well swing with the speaker impedance.

Has a good solid state amp been tried? My Bel Canto Ref 1000 amps are very smooth in these frequency areas. Even if I don't like the midrange squeezed sound in a 22 foot wide room, the bass is very much there as long as you are not sitting on top of the speaker. I may not be a fan of the midrange but the output is definitely not over the top with the referenced bass if the room is reasonable and the amp can maintain flat output.

Using a DEQ2496 I've only ever bumped it up in the 250-400 range to fill in the upper bass which is a known issue.

[Panacea Engineering]

With ALL due respect, he has stated that there has been a Mid-Range problem with most of the speakers he has listened to, including but not limited to other brands than Klipsch. Different people have different taste in music. Is it possible that his ears are very sensative to the frequencies that he is having trouble with? Some people resonate at frequencies that sound normal to others. From reading all of these post, it seems like this is an issue with the listener, rather than the sound reproducing device, espicially if other brands of speakerrs and amps have produced the "Ear Bleed" of the listener.

Klipsch are known for giving a flat response and they can reproduce the sound like you were there in the recording studio. Their efficiency is good to a fault as they reproduce all of the artifacts that are present in the Master recording. Shit in shit out...........I would certainly look for other sources than amps, room acoustics and HOT horns Klipsch's are known to reproduce whatever was recorded, accurately....! Possibly something to tame the midrange to HIS ears would be in order.

I only say this as I have owned all of the Heritage line, played through numerous SS amps and consider Klipsch one of the finest speakers on the market for the price. I am presently taking the plunge to try valves on my Klipschorns, huge leap for me...! At present, I have a pretty impressive list of Heritage along with a lot of the KP/KI lines.

Just some observations,

W. C.

[2BRNot2B]

"With ALL due respect, he has stated that there has been a Mid-Range
problem with most of the speakers he has listened to, including but not
limited to other brands than Klipsch" & "espicially if other brands of speakerrs and amps have produced the "Ear Bleed" of the listener.s of speakerrs and amps have produced the "Ear Bleed" of the listener".

I knew it was a matter of time before someone would post something like this. I'll take the bait. That said:

When did I make these remarks regarding other speaker brands? The Sound Dynamic 300ti's I listened to for 15+ years had poor mid-range reproduction, but I never said it was too hot. It was actually too weak. These were known issues specific to that speaker (it had a marginal mid-range speaker). Plus I listened to same speaker in several different rooms with similar results....end result poor mid-range reproduction.

I'll agree totally with you regarding the subjectivity of listening but I am no "lightweight" when it comes to deciphering the range of musical sound. My ears are pretty well tuned. To establish some framework, I'm currently a semi-pro musician and played (many years ago) in a classical orchestra doing the usual war-horse material (it was a B-list orchestra...but that is another story).

I can conclusivey say that the K-horns I currently own are HOT in the mid-range. I believe if 100 objective people lined up to listen to the same speakers with blinders over their eyes, most would conclude the same. Defining and absolutely proving such is a different story. We can go back and forth all day.........

[Marvel]

Rob,

I think we are all just grasping at straws just a little bit, and I am sure there is no intent to slam you in any way. It would be great if someone here who has Khorns could listen to what you are experiencing.

That said, the bass seems to be a problem and the mids are too hot. That would cause my ears to bleed, too.

You may not have perfect 90 degree corners, but using the pipe insulation and getting them pushed back should be fine. I think I mentioned before, I had to knock down my mids a little on my LS, and did so by using the autoformer on the crossover. There is a chart around here somewhere that shows the different connections for various connections to achieve certain a certain attenuation. It could do wonders.

I meant to ask earlier, and please forgive me if you already told us. What are your normal listening levels? I usually max out around 95db. Any louder and I'm getting really uncomfortable.

Just don't give up on them.

Bruce

[Islander]

Klipschorns sound great to most people's ears, so it would be best to try dialing in the stock parts before getting into modifications.

"Hot mids and highs" is another way of saying "weak bass". Inadequate bass output will make any speaker sound terrible, and painful at high volume. Have you checked the output of the woofers? You could temporarily disconnect the tweeters and mids and see if you're getting useful output from the woofers.

While Klipsch woofers in general last for several decades, individual ones can fail early. You might have to actually get in there and verify that the woofers are in good working condition.