anarchist Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Hi guys, I bought a set of Heresys not that long ago which for the most part are now sitting unused due to lack of amplification - and my laziness in swapping them in and out of the HT. So, I said I would go for this tubes deal. I am looking at the Consonance Basie and Billies (300B monoblocks) and DIY. Anyone familiar with them with opinions? Also, being a newbie, please explain in laymans terms, why I would want to go with tube pre-amp and 9 watt 300B SET vs integrated EL34/KT88 with 40x2 watts vs. integrated 2A3 with 13x2 watts. Oh yeah, from a cost perspective these kits are $1000 (no tubes) vs. $429 vs. $499. Could I buy the preamp first and plug it into my SS receiver - which would make that 1000 much more palatable since I could do it in 2 stages. Really looking for your assistance. I know next to nothing about tubes and figure the DIY kits would give me good insight and upgrability - of course, picking a flavor is damn difficult when I don't know what the hell it all means. ------------------ Home Theater KSP 400's KSP C6 KSP S6's Yamaha RXV995 Music Room Heresy's KG4's KSW200 The move to separates is coming, I can feel it. This message has been edited by crash827 on 05-10-2002 at 06:34 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Crash---I heard the Billies, nice amps and a great deal. Will they sound better than the other amps you mentioned? Who knows? All kinds of things sound good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Crash, Can't say that I'm very familar with them, but I did hear them at the Midwest Audiofest in Ohio last March. They had a pair of 300B TJ Mesh plates and the Consonance Basie was the Preamp. I was very impressed with the sound, especially since the audition rooms were not acoustically the best settings for listening. Kevin was far better explaining the merits of the amps and preamp than I am. Well here's a link to DIYCables site with options for the various kits. btw-mobile built the pages in the link. http://www.diycable.com/billie.htm Wes ------------------ KLIPSCH IS MUSICf> My Systems f>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 That Basie Pre-amp seems like a fun kit to tinker with. It's cheap and roomy for other circuits. the only thing that is kind of beat is that it doesn't have a Phono circuit, which could be added. Although the U.K. site says there is a phono addition soon to come for the Basie. I'm going to need something to push these El-84/6BQ5 EICO mono amps other than a variable volume control output from a CD player. Hopefully they will have the Phono circuit option when I scrounge up enough sheckles to pick one up. The Consonance line seems like great gear at a great price, and wide open for upgrades. Too bad the Billies aren't mirror-image amps. But considering the price, that's pretty moot. Wasn't Kelly Holsten supposed to review this stuff?! Good luck on the kits. THANX! This message has been edited by mike stehr on 05-11-2002 at 12:11 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 Unfortunately Kelly may not return. Sure wish fences could be mended and all parties return. As No. 5 would say: "We Need More Input!" Wes ------------------ KLIPSCH IS MUSICf> My Systems f>s>c> This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 05-11-2002 at 07:48 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 Quicksilver Audio has an EL34-based design that is intended for use with horn speakers. It's not exactly a DIY approach, but I'm sure it would be a good match with the Heresys. If you want to get a better understanding of tube amps, you might consider picking up something used and get experience by reconditioning it. The Dynaco ST-70 is a nice classic stereo design in a single chassis. The Heath W5Ms are mono (so you need 2), and they're all hand wired (ST-70 has a pc board driver - phase splitter) Have you had an opportunity to hear a good push-pull design compared with an SET? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 If throughing lots of money at your system is what you feel is necessary to achieve sonic nervana, then that is what you need to do. However, if you haunt Ebay, and are willing to listen to Mr. Klipsch, then you can do it for a lot less...consider my story. After 30 years of reading audiophile mags, being an audio engineer (early part of my career), and plowing through tons of audio (to quote PWK) BS, I finally got it. My "dream system" could have been put together the week after my visit to Mr. K's Hope lab in 1972 and would have remained basically sonically unchallenged and unchanged to this day. That day I heard E. Power Biggs at the organ playing his famous rendition of the Saint Saens Organ Symphony via Ampex Reel to Reel in Mr. K's enormous listening room. At the peak crescendo I leaned over to PW's ear and shouted "How much power is this taking?" He looked over his shoulder at said "O, about 5 watts." I've heard many, many, very, very exotic and expensive systems since that day, but never better. Why it took 30 years for this to really sink in I do not know, but it finally did and now I can put together my dream system and the latest and greatest ways to drain your bank account need not apply. I've thrown lots of bucks at the latest and greatest over the years and never achieved the sonic satisfaction I recieved from my 1960's system consisting of a Dynco STA-35 tube integrated amp and Frazier Monte Carlo speakers. Last week I got the Monte Carlo's down from the attic and place them on top of my present speakers. I was astonished to find them sounding BETTER! They will soon join my newly acquired Khorn's as the rear speakers fed from my DynaQuad (also from the attic and 25 years ago). Well, I'm rattling on...point is, get yourself a Dyna ST-70 off Ebay and save a lot of money. Dave Mallett ------------------ David A. Mallett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted May 11, 2002 Share Posted May 11, 2002 crash, When I started getting into tubes I went through a bunch of 'em before I found what worked best for me (so far). I started out with a Jolida 801A integrated @ 60 wpc and I kept going down in power rating, eventually settling on monoblock amps with a tube preamp. My amps are 2A3s @ 3.5wpc but I have them hooked up to Khorns. I am certain you will find you need more power than I do since your Heresy's are less efficient. I don't have any experience with the equipment you are asking about. If you are into DIY you can surely save some $$ by building your own. Also, I have never heard a 300B amp (this is my next goal), nor a EL34/KT88 but I have owned EL84 amps that sounded absolutely great and I love my 2A3s. I don't think anyone can really tell you which would be best, it is too personal a decision and too many variables. Your music preferences, your room, your speakers, your system goals (2 channel only?) and your ears make it your decision. I can tell you that I think that you will be very pleased with a Klipsch Heritage/tube combo. I will have a vintage Scott 299C (updated with new parts and brought up to spec by NOS440 for me) hooked up to my Heresy's next week! I am really looking forward to hearing this integrated amp and the Heresy's together. Good luck and keep us posted on what you start out with! ------------------ 2 Channel System: '78 Khorns w/ALK networks Welborne Labs Moondog 2A3 amps AES AE-3 Superpreamp DJH mods McIntosh MCD 7007 CD McIntosh MR-78 Tuner DIYCable Twisted Cross Connect Speaker Cable DIYCable Superlatives (preamp/amp) DH Labs Silver Pulse interconnects (sources/preamp) f> s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOUNDER Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 I think you will find that preferences in tubes has a lot to do with your music tastes and listening habits. If you know someone in your area that has tubes and doesn't mind bringing them over for you to audition than that will give you some reference points to go by. ------------------ Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 crash827, Your contemplative direction of the Consonance Basie and Billies (300B monoblocks) and DIY, I think is one of many possible winners based on some of the comments you can find on the Consonance 300B monoblocks in the AudioAsylum/SET Asylum and other online sources. The Ella is another possibilty on the DIY Cable site and they are offering a new kit, The JOPLIN 2A3 Push-Pull Stereo Amplifier Kit which offers the refinement of the 2A3 tube in push-pull design for a bit more power for the slightly less efficient Heresy compared to say other Heritage's like Cornwalls/LaScalas/Belles, or Khorns. I think the price for the kits are reasonable, and there's nothing like tube gear when it come to tweaking for refinement. If you want to go slower, a used tube integrated, could be an interim solution, but as with all used gear, "let the buyer beware" rule applies. That said, good deals on gear can be found on ebay and AudiogoN if you're willing to be patient and sift through the offerings. I've had decent luck purchasing used gear, but it does require doing some homework. There are plenty of people in this Forum willing to share information, so don't hesitate to ask lots of questions. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 When it comes to Amp choices I really think it all depends on what type of music you listen to and what speakers your going to use. Also what volume are you comfortable with makes the decisions narrow down. I myself spent most of my misguided youth at Rock concerts right up front I also worked at a prominent Detroit Rock and Roll club for a year and then at another in a northern Michigan resort town for three years. So I like my music loud and with very little distortion. After going to the Chicago Horn club meeting and listening to a 2 watt 45 tube based amp I know I can never go that route my ears are damaged to much for that LOL !!! Besides Rock and Roll just sounds better loud. My Heresy's sound awesome on all 3 of my Scott Amps right now its a toss up between my 299A 7189 based amp and my just refurbished LK-72 that uses 7591's. These are both Push Pull amps the 299 puts out about 24 WPC and plays crystal clear at about 103 to 104 db without noticeable distortion. The LK-72 puts out about 35 WPC and has some real mid range forward sound that I'm going to have to listen to for a few day's and see where it takes me but I think its going to play up to near 108db or so clear. I noticed you have Heresy's I also replaced my Woofers with the Layne Audio upgrade woofers and they really help out the Bass punch although subwoofer still required to get down low. I really like them !! Well good luck in your search Craig ------------------ HH Scott 299 Amp HH Scott LT-110B Tuner HH Scott P-87 Turn Table Grado cartridge Sony CDP315 CD Drive 1985 Walnut Heresey I KSW-15 Subs>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Question to NOS440 moved to "Updating Older Speakers" forum. Craig: I should be getting the Scott tomorrow! It arrived in Atlanta Saturday...why can't they deliver it today??! This message has been edited by edster00 on 05-13-2002 at 10:13 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 my question is...what kind of music do you like to listen to and at what volume...a 300B or 2A3 based kit with your heresy speakers will not pump out techno, A/C D/C or other big bass, big volume music. Jazz emsembles, chamber music, piano, these sound absolutely fabulous SET...if you want some tube "smoothness" but if want to rock out I would suggest a good hard listen to PP EL34 units...like the ST-70, Eico units, Leak or any Scott, Heathkit, etc. etc....a world of fun out there pn ebay for vintage stuff...let us know the music, we can suggest the amp...regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted May 13, 2002 Author Share Posted May 13, 2002 Thanks everyone, I have been tormenting myself with this decision and you guys have helped out wonderfully. Also got some feedback from mobile homeless on another site for those interested. The last few posts really put it in perspective - I hate chamber music so I can eliminate the SET. Actually, I am by nature a rock & roll guy who likes his music loud - just finished listening to Jewel (ok, it was mellow rock for the most part) at 105db and though damn I love these speakers - they are my KSP400's. Besides Jewel, I am a Black Sabbath, Rush, Metallica, Santana, Queensryche kind of guy. Also listen to some other mellow stuff (blues, jazz) at appreciably lower volumes. Based on what everyone has said and many of the other recommendations I have seen in the past (Eico HF-81, Dyna ST-70, Scott 299 - which I believe are all push-pull and EL-34 based for the most part?) I think the Elle which allows me to use EL-34/6550/KT88/KT100 and boasts 40 - 50 watts a channel is probably the best bet; amazingly, it is also the cheapest. That moves me to the next question. I can get it tubeless or select one of the various tube types. The tubes add anywhere from $70 (EL-34) to $135(KT100). Should I order with the stock tubes or are one of the other selections a better tube to start off with? What are the differences in sound amongst the tube types if you know? ------------------ Home Theater KSP 400's KSP C6 KSP S6's Yamaha RXV995 Music Room Heresy's KG4's KSW200 The move to separates is coming, I can feel it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 13, 2002 Share Posted May 13, 2002 Well I can't say what tubes will do you better. But if it was me I would get the stock configuration for your first set and then find vintage tubes as they become available and roll tubes like crazy. I have almost 100 tubes for my amps mostly Amperexs, Mullard and Telefunkens. I have found the Telefunkens to produce the best in a 299 amp. Tube rolling is real fun. Let us know how the Elle works out if that's what you get. I wouldn't mind buying one myself maybe later this year. Good Luck Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 I also have push pull monoblock amps (KT88 based) mated to Heresy's being driven through a Decware ZTPRE. I am waiting to get my hands on some SET amplification of some sort, but, like you, am concerned that it will run out of steam at times. Right now I am in the process of getting rid of some equipment (Accuphase E211 SS amp, SACD player) along with various SACD and DVD titles. Hopefully all that will bring in enough $$ to cover the cost of whatever amp I decide to go for (2a3 or 300B - the latter being more likely with Heresy 96db/w/m). As my listening is somewhat eclectic - ranging from string quartets to The Who and most things inbetween - I think the worst case scenario is that I will run both. Of course the alternative would be to forget about amplification and get a pair of LaScala's - which I am sure would have a bigger sonic impact that changing amplification. The only problem with that will be the legal fees when my wife decides to divorce me!! As she keeps pointing out - I love my sound as it stands now - where am I trying to go? To the moon, Alice!!! (anyone remember that one?) ------------------ My System: http://aca.gr/pop_maxg.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 Max, Ralph had it rough because he never won. You could always consider Belles like the pair on ebay now as "wife appeasement" with the story, "Honey, just as I try each day to be a better husband, I try to improve our sound system." Remember to use the "our" word. All BS aside, efficient speakers make SET amps very appealing because you really don't "run out of steam". Good luck Ralph..uhh Max. Klipsch out. 2 Channel system #1 1974 Belle Klipsch Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs Cary SLP90L Preamplifier Asusa modified PP-1 Phono preamplifier Rega 3 turntable, Rega 300 tonearm; Grado Rega Planet CD player AudioQuest Bedrock speaker cables Silver Audio Hyacinth interconnects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 There is a Doc Bottlehead "Foreplay" available at AudiogoN that was listed today: Foreplay link I know nothing about this seller but the preamp does have some nice upgrades made to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted May 18, 2002 Share Posted May 18, 2002 I just read the summer vol.1 no.1 paper on High-Fidelity where PWK said what amp he prefered with Klipschorn. He spoke about McIntosh, which has low distortion. I looked at it at: http://www.retroaudio.ru/mcintosh/ Specifically at the mc-30 and mc-40 which are available at ebay. Now i ask myself: would they be able to play properly Iron Maiden for example? The price is in my range for now. I would use it with RB-5 for now but i will get eventually Klipschorn when i have the place to put them! The amp prefered by PWK was the Brook but i don't find them easily on ebay... I also looked at the dynaco st-70; almost bid for it but i fear the high frequency roll off... Is there a mod to make it sound excellent in high frequency even if it means sacrifying power? Perhaps i'll just wait to build my own with 300b... What disturbs me is that i never heard tubes, so i only rely on other's opinions (not much stores with tubes in my town...) edit: There is also this McIntosh mc-225 that is stereo, 2x25W and seems fine, at ebay for 610$ (for now): http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1353024907 This message has been edited by Martin on 05-18-2002 at 10:21 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted May 18, 2002 Share Posted May 18, 2002 I have a pair of old Eico HF-12's, PP 6BQ5 circuit. First tube project, just got them going with more work to do. These are straight mono amps now. I can pound Iron Maiden at around 14 watts on my Chorus II's.(With a portable CD player, no Pre-amp yet.) 300 B's? Figure 8 watts. 2A3? 4 watts. 245? Around 1.6 watts. Any of these would crank on Klipschorns. IMO> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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