RF-7s or Cornwalls

[TheBeast]

Im going to buy either Cornwalls or RF-7s for the sound system I may be getting. I know there have been other topics about this but most of the replies are by people saying that the "cornbreadwalls" arent as good as the new technology and that the people that like them are "old hornies". How do the speakers really compare? I would proably get the RF-7s but the cornwalls are cheaper and from what ive heard higher quality (they dont make them like that used to). Are the cornwalls significantly better or worse in any areas than the RF-7s?

[Audible Nectar]

Hi there, it's me again!

Here's a few threads on this subject...

Thread 1

Thread 2

Thread 3

Happy reading!!

[TheEAR]

Simple

If you are like some here who like OLD and dusty stuff get the Cornbread Wallz.Its a great speaker for nostalgic dreamers who live in the past and say "They dont make them like they used to"

On the other hand if you prefer fresh and clean get the RF-7's.At least you will not find spiders and little green alinens inside.

I think I heard the fuse did "POP"

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[HDBRbuilder]

Well,

Dollar for dollar spent, the Cornwalls will be the best buy! I prefer the clarity of full horn-loading, and even though the bass of the Cornwall is not horn-loaded, it does one helluva job in its ported enclosure. One thing about Cornwalls is that they will escalate in value. I kinda like old heritage speakers because of that factor alone. When one checks the price of any of the soon-to-be-manufactured-again Heritage line, one must put the price of the Cornwall close to that of a LaScala. When you are looking at a newly manufactured Cornwall as going for over 2500 bucks a pair(if included in the line-up)...it kinda makes the prices for them in great used condition seem pretty inexpensive!

As for the heritage line being out-of-date...far from the truth!! All the Heritage line were developed by PWK himself!! The king of the KLIPSCH line is still the Klipschorn...as it has been since day one!! With new pairs of k-horns starting at over 6000 bucks, you gotta wonder how anything else is better at a lower price in the line!! The Jubilee home version will likely be in the 10 grand plus area!! And, remember, the Jubilee is basically the FINAL heritage speaker..PWK's final attempted improvement over the k-horn, from what I hear, and a two-way speaker to boot!!!! PWK's parameters for the Jubilee: "No sense in making a new speaker if it can't be a better speaker than the k-horn is...and I want this to be a two-way system instead of a three-way system!"

All of the Heritage line were developed for specific purposes, with the k-horn itself as the primary sound source in each case!! The original Heresy and Cornwall designs were developed as filler speakers at less cost for a three-speaker array. The LaScala was developed as a self-standing fully horn loaded soundstage speaker(actually it was developed for Winthrop Rockefeller, who wanted a "Klipsch-made horn speaker I can put on a flatbed trailer and stump the state of Arkansas for election to governer"). The Belle was developed as a pretty version of the LaScala for livingroom use as a center channel between two k-horns!!

With all these different original uses for the speaker designs in the Heritage line...and considering they are all originally supposed to be supplements to the k-horn....it is quite amazing that they ALL became quite popular as primary speaker set-ups in their own right!!! Something to be said for that, don't you think? Gotta be a reason!!

As for the availablity of these speakers on eBay and such...note that no speaker Klipsch has ever produced has equalled the volumes of heritage speakers produced!! So, even though there are numbers of them showing up on eBay and such...the IMPORTANT thing is how reasonable some of the prices are...well below the actual value of the speakers!! Also note that the REASON for the sale of most of these are due to estate sales, people moving in to smaller quarters with no room for them, etc....never are they sold because the owner doesn't like the sound!!! Show me just one eBay ad where the owner is getting rid of them because he prefers another speaker's sound!!!(unless of course it is a better Klipsch heritage model!!)

Sad thing about all of this is how many good heritage speakers are being gutted by the speaker ghouls to sell the components separately, since they get more for them than the speakers would bring on their own!!!

But, also realize this: If Klipsch ever announces it will NEVER manufacture any of the heritage line again...just watch those eBay prices for Heritage speakers skyrocket!!!! Actually, I am a bit surprised the sellers haven't used PWK's passing to jack up their reserves yet!!

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If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted.

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-26-2002 at 01:01 PM

[TBrennan]

Ear---But it's true, they DON'T make them like they used to. I dunno buddy, this old hornie doesn't want to hear 2200 hz coming from a cone, no sir. That's what Bose is for. :-)

[TBrennan]

Beast---Here's the gig. There have been NO basic improvements in horn speaker technolgy since the mid 1940s. And direct-radiator technology has yet to reach what horns were doing in 1945. A modern, high-quality compression driver is identical to one made in 1938 except that the field-coil magnet has been replaced by a permanent magnet and an inferior sounding titianium diaphragm is now often used instead of aluminum, titanium having better power handling. The best woofer ever made, still unsurpassed, is the Altec 515 of the late 1940s. The Cornwall is an inherantly better speaker than the RF-7. It only takes the woofer to 600hz, thus lowering distortion that occurs when a woofer is reproducing both bass and midrange. It uses a dedicated horn midrange which gives lower distortion, better dynamics and better clarity. The RF-7 takes the woofer up to around 2200hz, not the ideal way to make a speaker. The RF-7 is a much more compromised speaker; compromises to make the speaker cheaper to build and more fashionable in terms of what people like to look at nowadays: small, tall and narrow. Nice for home theater. The RFs have their fans and are decent speakers but are not up to the quality of the speakers designed by the company's founder, PWK. Get the Cornwalls, if nothing else they'll hold their value, who'll want RFs in a few years when some "newer, better" speaker has replaced them, just like the Epics and Legends and the other lines that have come and gone at a dizzying pace. I express some fact and some opinion.

This message has been edited by TBrennan on 05-27-2002 at 09:49 PM

[Deang]

I guess I got a few things to say.

Dollar for dollar spent, the Cornwalls will be the best buy!

Regardless of what is considered to be the most speaker for the money -- what it really comes down to is what sounds the best To YOU. I have heard many speakers, many expensive speakers -- and many of them I did not like. I have heard $1000 monitors that I preferred over $5000 floor standers. The emphasis should always be placed on what sound a person prefers. Period.

...One thing about Cornwalls is that they will escalate in value. I kinda like old heritage speakers because of that factor alone...one must put the price of the Cornwall close to that of a LaScala. When you are looking at a newly manufactured Cornwall as going for over 2500 bucks a pair (if included in the line-up)...it kinda makes the prices for them in great used condition seem pretty inexpensive!

If a person likes the sound of the Cornwall, then this "value" argument is legitimate. If however, they do not like the sound of the Cornwall -- then who cares what they are "worth". A speaker that one does not like the sound of has no true "value" as far as listening goes.

...As for the heritage line being out-of-date...far from the truth!! All the Heritage line was developed by PWK himself!!

I don't see what the first statement has to do with the second. At any rate, of course the Cornwalls are not out-of-date, any more than any other speaker design is "out-of-date". I still like the sound of AR11's, Old Advents, and the DQ-10s. As different as each of these speakers are from each other -- they each do different things equally well.

The king of the KLIPSCH line is still the Klipschorn...as it has been since day one!! With new pairs of k-horns starting at over 6000 bucks, you gotta wonder how anything else is better at a lower price in the line!!...

Again, price isn't really indicative of anything as far as hearing and preference is concerned. There are many who actually prefer the sound of the Cornwall to the Klipschorn. Also, three-way exponential horn systems are simply not everyone's cup of tea. I think it is intellectually dishonest to continually spout ones bias, and never point out the sonic differences in speakers so that someone might be helped in making an informed choice.

The Jubilee home version will likely be in the 10 grand plus area!! And, remember, the Jubilee is basically the FINAL heritage speaker..PWK's final attempted improvement over the k-horn, from what I hear, and a two-way speaker to boot!!!! PWK's parameters for the Jubilee: "No sense in making a new speaker if it can't be a better speaker than the k-horn is...and I want this to be a two-way system instead of a three-way system!"

This happened because PK kept reading all of my posts about two-ways. I guess it finally got to him.

...With all these different original uses for the speaker designs in the Heritage line...and considering they are all originally supposed to be supplements to the k-horn....it is quite amazing that they ALL became quite popular as primary speaker set-ups in their own right!!! Something to be said for that, don't you think? Gotta be a reason!!

What is so amazing? I used two RC7's (center channel speaker) as mains until I had the money to upgrade to the RF7's. People simply could either not afford K-horns, or didn't have corners for them, and since the driver compliments were for the most part identical -- individuals decided to get a pair of La-Scalas or Belles.

As for the availability of these speakers on eBay and such...note that no speaker Klipsch has ever produced has equaled the volumes of heritage speakers produced!! So, even though there are numbers of them showing up on eBay and such...the IMPORTANT thing is how reasonable some of the prices are...well below the actual value of the speakers!!

Since Klipsch started selling Reference they have been able to expand their facilities, and facilitate new hires. Over a two year period, the RF3 out sold almost every other similar product in the market. Many people seem to like the sound of the 'new' Klipsch. Sure, lot's of different lines over the years -- and Klipsch kept banging away until they got it right. Now they have a winner. I imagine Reference will be around until it's not selling well anymore. If recent numbers are indicative of anything, it is that they will be selling for quite some time.

Also note that the REASON for the sale of most of these are due to estate sales, people moving in to smaller quarters with no room for them, etc....never are they sold because the owner doesn't like the sound!!! Show me just one eBay ad where the owner is getting rid of them because he prefers another speaker's sound!!!(unless of course it is a better Klipsch heritage model!!)

And of course if I were trying to sell a speaker I would advertise the reason for selling as "do not like the sound". Truth is, most speaker sales are exactly just that -- attempting to find another sound preferable to what one has presently. Many are without a doubt advertised as being sold for reasons related to estate -- but that doesn't mean that is the real reason, much less the only reason.

Sad thing about all of this is how many good heritage speakers are being gutted by the speaker ghouls to sell the components separately, since they get more for them than the speakers would bring on their own!!!

Must be because the cabinets are so ugly Only kidding!!! Seriously, I do wish Klipsch would create a Reference speaker with the build quality of Heritage. You'll get no argument from me here on this. I would gladly pay $500 more for a better cabinet. Want to build me a couple

But, also realize this: If Klipsch ever announces it will NEVER manufacture any of the heritage line again...just watch those eBay prices for Heritage speakers skyrocket!!!! Actually, I am a bit surprised the sellers haven't used PWK's passing to jack up their reserves yet!!

This is certainly true.

TBrennan Man, you are brutal. Please stop with the 'cones suck' posts. Besides, I dont agree.

...they DON'T make them like they used to.

They sure don't, but it's not the end of the world. Reference, and most speakers will sure not take the abuse of any Heritage speaker -- but I'm sure they will last just as long. I just saw a mint set of Advents sell on Ebay, and them suckers were 30 years old. Yep, sure can't drop MDF speakers off the back of a truck the solution to keeping them nice is not to drop them off the back of a truck.

...this old hornie doesn't want to hear 2200 hz coming from a cone, no sir. That's what Bose is for.

I'm sorry you're an old hornie Tom, but us new hornies like the new cones just fine. I mean c'mon, 2200Hz isnt all that bad for a $2000 two-way. Also,

1)... some of that is being reproduced by the horn due to overlapping from the crossover.

2)... there are two 10's sharing the output, which cuts down on IM distortion.

3)... the material used for the 10's is very light and very well damped as compared to paper or plastic -- which aids in both control and speed.

4) ... And since the lowest bass is being reproduced by the port, the 10's are not required to 'move' all that much. I've driven mine to ear blistering levels, and driver movement is barely discernable, visually or audibly. Use an SVS sub or two, cut at 50Hz, and its a grand sounding system. Simply fabulous.

There have been NO basic improvements in horn speaker technology since the mid 1940s.

O.K. No BASIC improvements. How about improvements in the materials utilized, the tighter tolerances inherent in modern day manufacturing, and extensive computer modeling used in design.

You know, my RF7's have no internal bracing. None. Well, there is that 'Double Paned Window Bracing' (I think that's what it's called), and those rolled up wads of acoustic foam -- but I'll be dipped if they are actually doing anything. At any rate, compared to the bracing used in most high-end speakers, it is a complete joke. The RF7 fails the knuckle rap test. Fails it miserably. I know those panels are resonating. They must be in a bad way. But you know something? I can't hear it!!

The RF7's should sound slow, fat, bloated, muddy, and boomy. There should be NO midrange, since the resonating panels should be mucking it up without mercy. Yet, that is not what I hear. The RF7's reproduce a tight, well-defined bass with no hint of boominess. The mids are clear and rich, and never do you sense they are being pinched off by the mid-bass or the resonances. They are tight and clear from top to bottom.

How do we account for this? Am I going deaf? Or can we say that computer modeling enables engineers to properly compensate for the cabinet resonances in the crossover design, and at the same time factor in the remaining competing variables, which leads to a balanced, dandy sounding design? Is it fair that we can also deduce that better materials, and tighter tolerances during driver manufacture are also contributing factors?

I know all the common responses. We have been down this road before. I'll be told that the anodized drivers are nothing revolutionary, and that you can't overcome the limitations of the cone, yada, yada, and yada. We just have to agree to disagree.

And direct-radiator technology has yet to reach what horns were doing in 1945.

So horns have no weaknesses, or inherent problems? Always superior to the DR in every situation or application. I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying into these arguments anymore. Besides, in spite of prevailing old hornie opinions -- the cone has made some progress ( ceramic/metal matrix ).

A modern, high-quality compression driver is identical to one made in 1938 except that the field-coil magnet has been replaced by a permanent magnet and an inferior sounding titanium diaphragm is now often used instead of aluminum, titanium having better power handling.

I always preferred the sound of titanium drivers to aluminum. What aspect of titanium is it that contributes to its inferiority? Aluminum hurts my ears.

The Cornwall is an inherently better speaker than the RF-7. It only takes the woofer to 600hz, thus lowering distortion that occurs when a woofer is reproducing both bass and midrange.

So, with this argument -- all three-ways ever made should sound better than the RF7. I mean, all three- ways have lower distortion than the RF7, so they must sound better.

Cornwall...uses a dedicated horn midrange which gives lower distortion, better dynamics and better clarity.

Additional crossover distortion, unevenness in the frequency response, and cabinet resonances non-withstanding. Besides, that dedicated horn midrange gives me a headache.

The RF-7 takes the woofer up to around 2200hz, not the ideal way to make a speaker.

Like the RB5 that goes up to 1900Hz but stomps everything up to the $2500 price point (including most multi-way designs like some of the Vandersteens, Paradigms, Magnapans, Bostons, etc).

I for one have never liked the sound of most multi-driver designs. This is strictly my preference of course. There is just something about them that does not sound "right" to me. I have tried many times to like them -- but have always dropped back to a two-way. To my ears, two-ways just sound smoother and richer.

The RF-7 is a much more compromised speaker; compromises to make the speaker cheaper to build...

Thank God -- at least I can afford to buy them! I don't think the Heritage drivers have squat on the Reference line drivers. Sturdier cabinets, but that it as far as I can tell.

... and more fashionable in terms of what people like to look at nowadays: small, tall and narrow. Nice for home theater.

Yep, I can set up my RF7's without a forklift. As a matter of fact, they actually fit through the front door, can be placed in my humble listening room -- and I still have room for a chair!

The RFs have their fans and are decent speakers but are not up to the quality of the speakers designed by the company's founder, PWK.

"Quality", such a subjective thing. I have better advice. Listen and compare before you buy, or you could be crying in your beer.

Get the Cornwalls, if nothing else they'll hold their value...

Really, you will have a collectible that you might not like to listen too, but can always use to store stuff inside of them. You can also sit and look at them -- reminding you how much they are "worth".

...who'll want RFs in a few years when some "newer, better" speaker has replaced them...

Me. Keep them nice and don't drop them off the back of a truck. Don't run your vacuum cleaner into the bottom of them, don't let your cat hang off the drivers, and try to make sure your kid's head doesn't get stuck in one of the ports -- and I'll buy them.

just like the Epics and Legends and the other lines that have come and gone at a dizzying pace.

Earbleeders all

I express some fact and some opinion.

Ya think?

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Deanf>s>

Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's

SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters

f>s>

Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

This message has been edited by deang on 05-28-2002 at 11:58 PM

[boa12]

dean, i favor the cornwalls too, but even if i didn't, i wouldn't try to rebute your post.

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My Home Systems Page

[TheBeast]

Well I guess im going to need to listen to them both and see but im almost sure im getting the cornwalls.

[rowooo]

Great post Deang.......My Epics cross over at 2200hz and they sound pretty dang good to me. Two eight inch cones, one two inch horn, and a knuckle failing cabinet is what dreams are made of......

[TBrennan]

Deang---A spirited reply, very good. Let's see. Are horns superior to cones in every situation? Yes, good ones are. Is every 3-way better than every 2-way? Of course not, 2-way Altecs and JBLs crossing at 500-800hz are better than 3-way Klipsches but 3-way Klipsches are better than 2-way ones, save the Jubilee perhaps. Titanium is heavier than aluminum and has less high frequency response for a given magnetic circuit. It does have better power handling than aluminum, the suspensions don't crack as readily as with aluminum. Note that JBL is reintroducing aluminum compression drivers for thier hi-fi horns. I'm not convinced the new metal Klipsch woofers are better damped, all the metal woofers I've seen response curves on show a great deal of high-frequency ringing which must be quashed by a drastic notch filter in the crossover. Or use rubber bumpers like Bozak did years ago. :-) The materials in compression drivers are pretty much the same as years ago save for titianium and berilium (sp?) used as disphragms and the switch from Alnico to ferrite magnets but ferrite was around a long time. Listen Deang, if you hate the sound of that Cornwall mid horn there's nothing I can say that will make you like it, and why should you, personally I don't think it's really that good a unit either though I prefer it to cones. But I REALLY don't like cone speakers very much, that's why I listen to horns, right? Oh I like my Altec 605s, which take a 15 to 1600hz, they sound very good but not as sharp or clear as VOTs crossing the same components an octave lower. Argue as we will about the technology it all gets down to preference and if you're happy with your RFs then that's aces with me, I'm happy for you, really, I'm not cracking wise. God Bless you and all here. (and God Bless you too, Buffalo Bill) Hey Deang, yer in Ohier, why not take a weekend and come to one of our Chicago Horn Club meetings? I think Straight-Arrow is having one in Lafeyette Indianer in July. I'll bring my JBLs and Edgars. Maybe you'd like a 2-way running down to 650hz. ? Cmon.

This message has been edited by TBrennan on 05-28-2002 at 07:59 PM

[TBrennan]

mdeneen---Well said, well said indeed.

[mpgwagon]

deang loves this! RF7's must be the best, cause that's what he has.

My SF1's are the best, no it's my KG's,no it's my Scala's. I give up I like em' all.... but nothing beats fully horn loaded or any Heritage.

Bottom line: If it says "Klipsch" it's OK in my book!

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http://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/MYSTUFF.jpg

[ShapeShifter]

I would like to say that I do like Klipsch, and I'm an avid Heritage fan. But believe you me, there are worthy alternative horn makers. I heard some wonderful speakers at the Mid-West Audio Fest in Ohio. So Klpsch can't rest on their laurels, and they should consider making a representation at the 2003 showing. Do yourself a favor ATTEND!!

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KLIPSCH IS MUSICf>

My Systems f>s>c>

This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 05-29-2002 at 01:06 AM

[kev313]

It is interesting that this question is close enough to spark such a debate when you consider that within the last few months I have constructed a heritage ht - cornwall fronts, forte surrounds, and an academy center("heritage-like" ht for those who do not count fortes as part of the heritage group) for about the same price as new RF-7's. Granted, price may not factor into everyone's response to this question, nor should it, but it factors into mine. Answer = Cornwalls.

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Two Channel System:

Klipsch Fortes (1988)

Jolida 202a

Rega Planet

Denon DP 3000 tt (Stax tonearm; Grado Gold cart.)

[Deang]

Tom

Titanium is heavier than aluminum and has less high frequency response for a given magnetic circuit.

Don't really understand how this translates to particular sonic signature of each material. I just know that over the years, I have found aluminium HF drivers to sound somewhat dry. Titanium OTOH, always sounds immediate and alive.

I'm not convinced the new metal Klipsch woofers are better damped, all the metal woofers I've seen response curves on show a great deal of high-frequency ringing which must be quashed by a drastic notch filter in the crossover.

The cones are not 'metal'. It is a composite material. Aluminium is sandwiched between two layers of ceramic. Please read the white paper I provided the link for at the Infinity site written by Floyd Toole and Allan Deventier -- it's informative.

The materials in compression drivers are pretty much the same as years ago save for titianium and berilium used as diaphrams, and the switch from Alnico to ferrite magnets...

I guess this is a good thing?

...I REALLY don't like cone speakers very much, that's why I listen to horns...

Much of this probably comes down to what one is used to. I'm sure you remember from my Asylum posts that I spent the better part of a decade with Magnepans. When I finally got bored with them, it was tough finding something to replace them. After all, I really liked the richness and texture of the Maggies, but missed the attack and decay properties of dynamic drivers. What was a poor guy to do -- jump to Khorns? I don't really 'hate' three-way exponential horn systems, but they are just too 'in my face' for everyday listening. The RF7's give me some of everything I like in good speakers. I get some of the richness and texture of a planar, and much better dynamics than a straight up direct radiator design.

Argue as we will about the technology it all gets down to preference and if you're happy with your RFs then that's aces with me, I'm happy for you, really, I'm not cracking wise.

Why Mr. Tom, I do believe that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. Uhh, I think it might be nicest thing you've ever said to anyone

why not take a weekend and come to one of our Chicago Horn Club meetings? I think Straight-Arrow is having one in Lafeyette Indianer in July. I'll bring my JBLs and Edgars. Maybe you'd like a 2-way running down to 650hz. ? Cmon.

Yea, I should do that, really should. 3 hour drive I can handle. Let me know when, and I'll clear my calendar. No doubt I would to hear some two-ways going down to 650Hz, and Edgars would be cool too.

Mdeneen

I guess to add to the TBrennan logic, an RF-7 is not really a horn speaker, but rather a cone speaker with a horn for a tweeter. So, whatever its redeeming values are, and I'm sure they are many, they should rightly be compared to cone speakers of whatever brand you like.

Man, what a mean thing to say. I don't even know how to respond to that one. Uhh, how about it has one horn instead of two? I mean, it looks like a horn

If you don't have horns at least down into the midrange, there is simply no "horn-like" quality left to the sound...

Well, there is the fundemental of the note, and then of course all of those harmonics. Yes, the majority of the midrange fundamentals are being reproduced by the cones, but all of the associated harmonics of those midrange fundamentals are being reproduced by the horn. Not going to let me get away with this one are you.

All other nonsense aside, HORN drivers sound FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT than cones. And that matters not whether the cone is made from paper, plastic or crushed diamonds. Whether there is one cone playing or 16 cones. The entire principle of a compression driver is radically differenent than a piston driver, and you can hear that.

Crushed diamonds would have a high WAF. I think you might be on to something.

The sound of both speakers mentioned is fine. They can each satisfy various tastes, but they are simply not "directly comparable" on the same scale. Likewise you can't directly compare a Linn turntable to a Sony SACD player. It doesn't make sense.

You are usually right about everything, but this time I think you're wrong. I mean, you can compare anything, right?

"Old Hornies" as the term is used around here, simply hear a completely different "quality" to the sound in horn systems than you can ever get with cones.

I believe that is probably true. I think it might be somewhat of an 'aquired' taste.

Just take a simple taste test: Find your favorite vocal material - record, CD whatever, then play it on a VERY expensive cone system - any system - even one costing $150,000 - Watt-Puppies, Grand Slams, whatever. Then play that same vocal on K-horns, Altecs, JBL horns, or Cornwalls. I'm not predicting which you will PREFER, but the DIFFERENCE in the "character of the sound" will startle you.

Emphasis on the word startle

Also, take a look at a frequency chart - - you know - where they plot what makes what sounds at what frequencies. You will see that at 2200 Hz, all the interesting dynamic stuff is over.

Yes, there is a good one here . What you are saying is really true, so I cannot argue against what you are saying. I do think there is some truth to my argument regarding reproduction of the harmonics by the horn in the RF7. I mean, the damn speaker is pretty dynamic, and the horn is doing something!

So having a "horn" above 2200Hz is in my estimation nothing more than "window dressing" to say, "Hey guys, we are still in the horn speaker business!"

You're being mean again. The RF7 is a fine speaker and offers a fairly high level of refinement and a decent slam factor to boot.

Well, c'mon, not REALLY! You could replace that twinky little RF7 tweeter driver with any number of high-quality standard dome tweeters and the system would sound fundamentally the same. Because the fundamental quality of what you are hearing is those cones.

No way. You ever hold one of those drivers in your hands? I have. 'Twinky little' don't get it. It's almost 2 inches in diameter and weighs well over 2 pounds. As far a "fundamental quality" or sonic signature goes -- all I can say is grab a conehead and tell them the RF7 is NOT really a horn loaded speaker. Go to the Polk site and read all of the responses generated by my posts challenging them to go take a listen. Many came back and basically said, "you know, them new horns sound pretty damn good -- but they STILL SOUND LIKE HORNS, LONG LIVE POLK.

"Fundamentally", what we hear with the RF7 is not the sonic signature strictly associated with cones or horns -- but rather an integration of concepts and technologies that creates a completely unique sonic signature. Even a casual listener however, can make out the fact that there is a horn present.

Enjoy which every path you choose and good luck!

Thanks Mdeneen -- enjoy I do!

mdeneen

mpwagon

deang loves this! RF7's must be the best, cause that's what he has.

There is no 'best'. That's what makes all this so interesting. The RF7's are not "the best" because that is what I own. The RF7's are the best because they sounded the best to me out of all the speakers I had an opportunity to hear -- with $3.2K to spend.

Mdeneen

...I'm laying 11 to 5 that you will never see another "horn speaker" from the Klipsch company. No Jubilees, no Heritage, no Cornwall revivals.

Well, you've already lost that bet since Klipsch is again manufacturing the Heritage line. They also make a nice line called 'All Hat No Cattle Horns'

Who'd buy them? The 200 guys active on this forum that already own Heritage? It's a pity, but the hornies are an arcane, niche within a niche. A total anachronism. A market so small that only cottage makers like Edgar, etc. are interested. HT and MP3 put the final nails in that coffin.

If I had the money I would buy Heritage for a separate HT system. I would love to have a set of Belles and 4 SVS Ultra's. Man, that would be the bomb.

Don't be so negative Mdeneen. You're bumming me out.

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Deanf>s>

Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's

SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters

f>s>

Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

This message has been edited by deang on 05-29-2002 at 02:55 PM

[HDBRbuilder]

Deang,

Yeah, right, I am sure PWK established his design parameters for the Jubilee based on your postings!!..LOL! Although the Jubilee is a two way system, it actually is composed of more components than the k-horn...the folded horn woofer being driven by 2 each 12" woofers AND one 12" passive radiator, as compared to the k-horn's folded horn woofer being driven by a single 15" cone driver...the increase in bottom end is just 5 Hz lower, but the upper range of the bass horn is increased to over 1000 Hz...thus allowing for a wide range horn tweeter and eliminating the need for a midrange horn/driver assembly.

Fact is, every speaker company in the world would love to have a speaker that reproduces the entire audible spectrum accurately and efficiently utilizing just ONE SINGLE DRIVER...but technology has not advanced to that point....YET....maybe someday...

The more drivers used in a speaker, the farther off axis the point of origination is....that point of origination is the key to imaging!! PWK, many years ago, set a goal of achieving accurate and efficient sound reproduction in a loudspeaker using NO MORE than a three-way system...in order to keep that axis point or origination as close as possible to a single axis...and I am quite sure that if PWK could have done so previously, he would have gone to a two-way system...something he finally accomplished with the Jubilee. (Yes, I HAVE HEARD THE JUBILEE...YESTERDAY at Hope!!!)

As for differences betwen horns and other forms of SOUND WAVE REPRODUCERS...a frequency response curve is just gonna tell you how close in dB to each other the frequencies a speaker is capable of reproducing are in relation to each other...a useful tool, to be sure!!!...BUT...are these frequencies being reproduced with a full, rounded at peak and trough soundwave????...OR...is that soundwave distorted by clipping at its peaks and troughs?.....In other words....whether it sounds good to you or not.....IS IT ACCURATE REPRODUCTION OF SOUND?...Think about it...and try and think just how large a radiator has to be in order to take that low-end wave in its response curve and make it a FULL, UNDISTORTED WAVE!!!

Isn't that what sound reproduction is all about?...ACCURATE REPRODUCTION? Or is it better to just try and fool our ears into believing that INACCURATE reproduction is actually "close enough" just because we want something slimmer and taller in our living rooms? Think about it!! Nuff Said!

As for modern computer aided designs used in technology of "better speakers"....show me just one audio CAD program that comprehends how a k-horn works!! They don't!!!!! CAD programs are only as good as the engineers who design and write them..and they tend to negate free thought on behalf of engineers to come up with something truly revolutionary...NOT GOOD!

Fact is, the CAD programs can't understand how a horn folded over its top and bottom (firing along a vertical plane, as it were), firing towards the rear and then reflecting off the k-horn tailpiece to follow THE WALLS AND FLOOR from a corner of a room with its firing becoming a HORIZONTAL axis from its original VERTICAL axis...this defies the logic of the CAD programming...BUT WE ALL KNOW IT WORKS, AND HAS BEEN WORKING IN THE K-HORN FOR OVER A HALF A CENTURY, don't we?

"I think it is intellectually dishonest to continually spout one's bias, and never point out the sonic differences in speakers so that someone might be helped in making an informed choice"...ok....show me something you have informed this soul about besides the bias you are spouting in favor of the RF-7!!!...AND...what the hell difference does it make to point out sonic differences to ANYBODY, if "what it really comes down to is what sounds best to you!"?

I prefer heritage speakers because I like the clarity and could give a damn less about whether any visitors, potential spouses or anybody else who drops by likes what they look like or not!! My ears are my judge, and they have been judging speakers for over 40 years, and it is still the original heritage series models that get my vote...to each his own...but I still would go for the Cornwalls if it were my choice!

If RF-7 is your speaker of choice, then more power to you...it just isn't mine!!!

Bye the way...I kinda wonder what happens when they build a Reference series prototype and test it??...do they say something like: "How does it stack up against a k-horn?".....or maybe now that they are building k-horns again, they say: "How does that k-horn stack up against an RF-7?"

Who the hell are you tryin to kid? That anechoic chamber will always have a k-horn as THE ULTIMATE REFERENCE to judge any other present or future models by!!!! You can take that to the bank!!!

P.S. The Jubilee, when it finally goes into production in its home version, will likely not have a wooden tweeter horn...and you who want them can start saving up your 15,000 bucks a pair now!!!! Hmmm...15,000 bucks would buy one helluva Heritage home theater system off eBay, wouldn't it?

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If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted.

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-29-2002 at 10:46 PM

[Deang]

Builder

Yeah, right, I am sure PWK established his design parameters for the Jubilee based on your postings!!..LOL!

uhh...I was making a joke. I can't believe you thought I was being serious.

...thus allowing for a wide range horn tweeter and eliminating the need for a midrange horn/driver assembly.

always a good idea

...BUT...are these frequencies being reproduced with a full, rounded at peak and trough soundwave????...OR...is that soundwave distorted by clipping at its peaks and troughs?

Clipping from the amp, or 'clipping' because the transducer is incapable of reproducing the full waveform? I think I know what you are saying. You are telling me that a fully loaded horn system has less compression. I accept that. OTOH, I also believe you can go the middle ground and reduce compression without losing warmth and texture -- which are also attibutes of live music.

Absolutey. The dynamics of a fully loaded horn system are much closer the live music than what the RF7's do. But at what cost? Dynamics is not the end all of music reproduction.

I heard K-horns extensively in the middle 70's. They sat in that shop for over a year before someone bought them. Sure, they could make the material on the bottom of my pants flap -- but I was also yelling for ear plugs. They sure didn't sound very good on that Crown amp. Put that same Crown amp on a set of Dahlquist DQ10's, and in spite of the lack of dynamics as compared to the K-horn -- was a much more musically satisfying experience.

.....In other words....whether it sounds good to you or not.....IS IT ACCURATE REPRODUCTION OF SOUND?...Think about it...and try and think just how large a radiator has to be in order to take that low-end wave in its response curve and make it a FULL, UNDISTORTED WAVE!!!

Tough to battle with you on this point. Really, I know what you are saying here. I pretty much have to concede this point. However, we are for the most part talking Cornwalls here, not K-horns. The Cornwall does not have loaded bass, so as far as I'm concerned -- it's in the same boat with the RF7 in principle.

I can only say that a set of RF7's and single SVS sub in my listening room, reproduces 20Hz at 110db and shakes the entire house. That wave is being propagated. Probably not as clean sounding as a K-horn does at 30Hz -- buy hey, you gotta hear it to believe it. I can't help but think a pair of RF7's and a pair of SVS Ultra's (which would run a little more than 1/2 the price of some K-horns) -- would have no problem in creating an immediate bowel movement.

Isn't that what sound reproduction is all about?...ACCURATE REPRODUCTION? Or is it better to just try and fool our ears into believing that INACCURATE reproduction is actually "close enough" just because we want something slimmer and taller in our living rooms? Think about it!! Nuff Said!

No, that's not what it is all about. It's about creating a musical satisfying experience. Besides, horns only do some things 'accurately'. There are some things related to music that horns don't always do very well. Take controlled directivity for example. Great for projecting what is on the recording -- but not so great in the sense that live sound tends to bounce around quite a bit. There is a speaker that does that pretty good, but I ain't gonna say it.

...ok....show me something you have informed this soul about besides the bias you are spouting in favor of the RF-7!!!

O.K.

Regardless of what is considered to be the most speaker for the money -- what it really comes down to is what sounds the best To YOU. I have heard many speakers, many expensive speakers -- and many of them I did not like. I have heard $1000 monitors that I preferred over $5000 floor standers. The emphasis should always be placed on what sound a person prefers. Period.

At any rate, of course the Cornwalls are not out-of-date, any more than any other speaker design is "out-of-date". I still like the sound of AR11's, Old Advents, and the DQ-10s. As different as each of these speakers are from each other -- they each do different things equally well.

"Quality", such a subjective thing. I have better advice. Listen and compare before you buy, or you could be crying in your beer.

Good enough?

...AND...what the hell difference does it make to point out sonic differences to ANYBODY, if "what it really comes down to is what sounds best to you!"

True.

By the way...I kinda wonder what happens when they build a Reference series prototype and test it??...do they say something like: "How does it stack up against a k-horn?".....or maybe now that they are building k-horns again, they say: "How does that k-horn stack up against an RF-7?"

No. I think they said. "We aren't selling enough Legends, and we aren't selling enough Heritage. We need something that people will buy. Something that sounds better than what everyone else is selling, but also something people can afford. We need to up the ante. We need cutting edge in a package we can sell. We don't want to sacrifice our namesake, but at the same time we have to edge our way into a market accustomed to a sense of politeness in reproduced music. We need something in-between. Dynamic, yet warm. A sense of immediacy yet without a sense of aggressiveness. Large - but not too large. We need something totally different. We need to survive."

It's like Mdeneen said. It's apples and oranges. They can be compared -- but it will ultimately come down to preference. It's totally subjective. Always will be.

You like apples and I like oranges.

If I have $6500, and had to choose between a set of K-horns, and a complete Reference HT setup with two SVS Ultras and dedicated amp -- well...

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Deanf>s>

Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's

SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters

f>s>

Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

[HDBRbuilder]

Deang,

Your statements:

"We aren't selling enough Legends. We aren't selling enough Heritage."

Well, the company WAS selling enough "heritage" when they came out with the KG series....the FIRST non-"heritage" models...designed for those young yuppies in the early 80's who drove their new BMW and Mercedes sedans, wore suits and ties to work, had plenty of gold and platinum charge cards, but had to live in small apartments in order to afford all of their credit card payments...the "me now" generation...and these small speakers were designed for that small apartment and condo crowd...so that they could have a "Klipsch" speaker set-up at a lower cost and later may end up upgrading to the "heritage" models when they got into larger homes. That was all there was to it!!

"We need something people will buy"....kinda reminds me of the "Cadillac Cimarrron concept"...LOL! Sure, people will buy ANYTHING if you produce and market it...especially if it has a "name brand" on it that historically has stood for high quality...look around...you see it every day!!

"Something that sounds better than what everybody else is producing, but also something that people can afford....." Yep, affordability is a good thing, but it still costs alot of bucks to get the best of anything!!! Just how "affordable" to the average Joe out there are RF-7's?

"We need to edge our way into a market..." This is where you actually hit the nail on the head. Klipsch edged into the small apartment speaker market first, then into the home computer market, and then into the home theater market...not bad things...just market expansion...

"We need to survive." If Klipsch had NEVER come out with anything other than its Heritage line, it would still have survived...it had already done so for over a quarter of a century with that line...and it made SOME people in the company quite wealthy in the process, over the years!! Klipsch was still expanding its market worldwide with its heritage line and was still showing increasing profits every year when they began introducing models other than the heritage line...trust me on that!!!...I was there!!!

Klipsch's expansion into other markets allowed it to become a multi-dimensional corporate conglomerate...BUT...is that necessarily a good thing? If all one is interested in is expanding profits and markets...I guess so.

But what about those out there who want the most accurate sound reproduction there is and will settle for nothing less? What are they buying? And, why is the heritage line coming back if they don't still have a good market for them? Trust me, it isn't just to have them sit in a dealer sound room gathering dust!!!

Klipsch had a huge pile of ADVANCED orders for the heritage line BEFORE production started back up again...ask them!!!

If Klipsch made nothing but the heritage line for home loudspeakers today, would they sell more of them? If BMW only built the 7-series cars would they sell more of them? Of course they would...they may not sell as many UNITS OVERALL as they do now with such a large array to choose from, but they would definitely sell more of the particular models made, just because some people will not settle for another "lesser brand name".

Just think...somebody at home has their desktop computer hooked up to a pair of K-horns...LOL! Sure, it sounds ridiculous...but it CAN happen!!! Those k-horns would still have more than enough wattage going into them to blow the windows out of a house, wouldn't they?

As for your analogy of those k-horns sitting in a dealership gathering dust....well...if the morons in charge of the dealership had hooked them up to a cleaner amplifier, all that distortion you heard would have been pretty much gone, wouldn't it? Would BMW power a 7-series sedan with a Yugo engine? DUH!

It is a good thing that so many markets have been entered into by Klipsch....because...for example, one day all those people listening to their Klipsch promedia will finally have a pair of k-horns in their listening rooms....just like all those buyers of Heresys for over 40 years..."Well, they aren't Klipschorns, but they ARE Klipsch...and someday I will have the money and have a place where I can put a pair of Klipschorns...someday...."

Yes, despite the KG series, the Legend series, ....the Reference series...."they ARE Klipsch...and someday I will have the money and have a place where I can put a pair of k-horns (or maybe Jubilees?)...someday...."

The legendary Heritage series still lives on!!! And it ain't a bunch of "old hornies" who keep it alive, either!!! It would be interesting to see the data on the current buyers of the Heritage line...their ages...what speakers they now have before their purchase of their Heritage models, etc...don't you agree? I sincerely doubt that the majority of these buyers are "old hornies" in their golden years living on fixed incomes!!!...it just doesn't add up!!! Does it?

Even YOU, the "Mr. RF-7" of this thread, admit that if/when you "can afford" it, you desire a Heritage HT set-up....I rest my case on that!!! Bye the way...for what you have spent for those RF-7's, you could already be well on your way to a Heritage home theater through purchases on eBay...doncha think?

BUT...let your ears make your choices for you...luckily I am NOT yet tone deaf..so, I would go for the "Cornbreadwallz"!!

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If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted.

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-30-2002 at 10:14 AM

[Deang]

Yes, I'm sure if those K-horns had been hooked up to a real amplifier they would have sounded much better. I was only trying to say that most other speakers are typically more forgiving in what you drive them with -- and so from that standpoint are easier to sell. I mean, most here will agree that to hear Heritage at its best, you need tubes -- and most people just aren't inclined to go that way.

You made very good points however, but keep in mind I was only speculating. My point was really that I didn't believe they built an RF7 to compete head on with a Klipschorn. I understand the limitations of the RF7 -- as well as it's strengths.

My original point, and still is -- is that no one should be buying a set speakers without first hearing them. I realize because my post was written in the form of a response to your comments, it may have seemed like I was discounting the Cornwall as a valid choice. However, if you go back and read my first two paragraphs without reading into them -- I was just trying to say: "If you buy them without hearing them first, and then don't like them...".

In spite of my bias -- I would certainly enjoy having a set of Cornwalls or Klipschorns sitting in my living room. I would even rent a forklift

BTW - I have enjoyed reading your contributions to the forum and look forward to swinging swords with you again in the future!

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Deanf>s>

Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's

SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters

f>s>

Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>