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Danley, big horns, small room...


Serge_S
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Hello,




I am new to this forum. I know Klipsch forum is not an ideal place to
ask about competing product, but it seems to be THE place to ask about running
big horns in less then ideal rooms. So here it goes.




I
am interested in audio only, no sub, in 11.5’x14.5’ room. I initially
considered La Scala, but figured they were too much for such a small
room. I was ready to pull the trigger on Heresys III when I saw a
comment
at Audiogon about Tom Danley’s pro horns being at the forefront of horn
speaker
design. Tom was kind enough to answer some of my questions on his
SM-96(90x60) and SM-60F(60x60) in the link I pasted below. Even though
I’d love to find out what a horn like that sounds like, I still think
this may be similar to running K-Horn or LS in a small room and my
thoughts turn
to Heresys as a much safer choice. I am also concerned about these
being
pro rather than home audio. As not many people have heard Danleys I’ll
confine my questions to general ones: should I even attempt running big
horns
like this in my small room. What about 90x60 vs 60x60 for my room?
Any advice is appreciated. Has anyone attempted using something like
Klipsch KPT-305 in small rooms.

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=speakers&m=315499

Thanks,

Serge

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using Khorns in a similar sized listening room 14.5' X 13' with 9' ceilings. the sound is excellent!

agree with seti, why put poor speakers in a small room.

there are no synergies gained by using smaller or lower quality speakers in a small room.

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I am also concerned about these
being
pro rather than home audio.

Welcome

I wouldn't worry about the speaker being a pro speaker, us, and many here use pro speakers for home audio. But not all pro speakers would work well in home audio, that's where I would worry, if at all.

I know nothing about the Danley speakers, But I do like some of their subs, even use one very similar.

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What about 90x60 vs 60x60 for my room?
Any advice is appreciated. Has anyone attempted using something like
Klipsch KPT-305 in small rooms.

I thought the KPT-305 was just a mid bass speaker ? And yes there are some here with big horns, especially the k402 horn, but I'm not sure about in a room 11.5 x 14.5. I think the idea is bigger horns are better than smaller ones even in a small room, something about the way they control the pattern of sound. MANY others can comment better on this, but I did hear that from very reliable sources.

We use the 402 horns for midrange and highs with mwm bass bins for bottom half with what's very close to a Danley "spud" for bass. In a room 24' wide and 18' deep, really it's open 16' more feet on the depth, so closer to 24 wide x 34 deep.

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Hello Serge,

I have been a Klipsch loyalist for longer than I care to mention. In fairness,I am biased to the Klipsch sound.

Like you, I had the same question regarding the LaScalas. My music room is smaller then yours.

Dennie, linked my post from just over a week ago to yours.

Fate delt me a kind hand, and thanks to a wonderful member of this forum, I just fell into a great pair of 1988 LaScalas.

Let me tell you that when I listen to music through my LaScalas, the walls in my small room melt away. The LaScalas transform my room in to the worlds finest concert hall.

The sound stageing is remarkable. I really love how they sound at low volume. I have owned Haresey's, Cornwalls, KG3's, HereseyIII's, and each of them are wonderful loud speakers... But these LaScalas,are incredible!!!! And when you dial up the volume

you become that old Memorex tape advert. the one with with the guy sitting in the chair infront of the speaker, his drink getting blown over.

Get a pair, your only regret will be that you didn't get them sooner.

In my opinion, your room size will work out just fine with the LaScalas. They are that good.

Wecome to the forum.

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I had a pair of Lascalas in a room with 11 X 18 foot dimensions some years back, and the sound quality was fabulous. I have not heard any Danley Sound Lab products, but I recently heard some Yorkville Unity PA speakers that use a Danley designed Unity horn for mids and highs and a 15" vented bass. This was probably the best small sound reinforcement system I've heard. They were very clear, undistorted, and sounded the same wherever you were in the building. Those might make a good home speaker, from what I heard.

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http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/147478/1536374.aspx#1536374

The key is controlling the polars down to the lowest frequency handled by the horns.

Note that the Danley Synergy Horn ("SH" series) does a good job of controlling its polars down to below ~400 Hz, and this is key: I'd say that the Danley's would be the best sounding speakers, along with Klipsch K-402s with good compression drivers, such as the JubScala configuration.

djk (Dennis) is also pointing this out with his advice and picture, above: I'd take that recommendation to the bank.

Chris

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If you can bring up the first pic in the following thread, you can see how a pair of Klipschorns can fit along the short wall of an 11' X 18' room.

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/AKlipschDscn0307.jpg

The advantages of the K-horn are relatively small footprint compared to La Scalas because of how they tuck corners, and bass down to 33 Hz as opposed to only around 50 Hz from the La Scala. The 33 Hz bass lets you hear the bottom notes of string basses, some guitars, pipe organs, and bass drums.

The disadvantage is a limited "sweet spot" that requires you to sit either too close if they're along a short 11' wall, or inability to sit far enough back if they're along an 18' wall.

Anyway, some food for thought

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I'm going to play devils advocate here.

First of all, while there may be no synergies gained by using smaller or lower quality speakers in a small room, there are certainly no synergies gained by using a larger (too large for the room) or higher quality speaker in a small room either. The room is a "component" too and it can make a high quality speaker sound just as bad as a low quality one, maybe even worse under the right conditions.

Yes, the quality of the speaker is important and the higher quality speaker always (should) sound better than a lower quality one, but the real question is more like ~ does a top fuel class dragster belong on your neighborhood street for a ride to the grocery store or country back road?

There are those who seem to think that "spraying" the whole sound all over the walls, floor and ceiling creating all kinds of short term first reflections is a good thing, and indeed there are in fact plenty of speakers designed with just that idea in mind (Bose 901, Magnaplanars, etc). If that is the kind of sound you like and want then I suggest you just go that route and not waste your time with a horn type system engineered with controlled directivity in mind because it just won't matter much under those conditions.

On the other hand if there are still certain qualities you like about the speakers, or you just want to impress the hell out of all your friends and family then by all means go for it.

I've had my Klipschorns for more than 30 years. They've been in all kinds of rooms, including a room even slightly smaller than yours (10x12) when I first got them. In retrospect I can tell you as a matter of fact that room did the speakers absolutely no justice. In fact it wasn't until I got them into an ideal place that I realized just how bad the situation really was because now I was hearing for the first time what they were really capable of. But, at the time I bought them because I had other plans for them and I was able to purchase them at a good price so I bit the bullet. From the beginning though, my goal was to eventually build a dedicated listening room around them.

"to each his own" [6]

EDIT: Also, don't forget Cornwalls. They'll get you the deeper bottom end and still have some flexibility in positioning/placement.

Also I have heard the Danley SH96's, in a large room though ~ the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry's OmniMax theater. The midrange/high-end sound was clear and very coherent.However the TH-50 subs sucked, I mean really sucked. Not my cup of tea at all. Some have suggested that the system was "over-tweaked" to impress the audience which may be the case, I don't know. But since then I've heard other Danley subs and my impression remains the same. Maybe if you want a lot a rumble for home theater you'll like them. But I found the OmniMax Canadian Pacific train film low-end sound annoying and unrealistic.(I'm also a train buff so I've been around these things a few times too)

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"There is some truth to the saying that, the smaller the listening room, the larger the speaker that you need."

This is actually a quote from Roy Delgado, chief engineer of the Klipsch professional products division. The lessons that produced that quote were verified by this writer.

I'd try the Danley Synergy Horns (SH series). Let us know how it goes. They're not cheap, but I've never heard anyone who has heard them say that they were anything but excellent.

Chris

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However the TH-50 subs sucked, I mean really sucked. Not my cup of tea at all. Some have suggested that the system was "over-tweaked" to impress the audience which may be the case, I don't know.

I wouldn't use that sub crossed over above 40 Hz (steep slope) under any conditions.

Every instance that I heard of someone not liking the TH series - they were crossed too high and used a gentle slope crossover filter between the bass bin and the sub. I'd recommend something like 24 dB/octave crossover filters instead - but crossed no higher than 45 Hz. There are good reasons for this recommendation.

I'd actually recommend either the Khorn or Jubilee bass bin in the corners if clean low bass is your cup of tea and you've got a bit of room--as it is in my case. However, the price goes up.

You could also take djk's recommendation and port a couple of La Scala bass bins, crossing these over to the Danleys at 300 Hz or below, then use some other subwoofer to take it on down to sub-20 Hz from the ported La Scala's nominal cutoff of ~70 Hz. I think that the Danleys with the ported La Scala bins would actually be outstanding and those alone would hold you until you could research the subwoofer issue more. I don't think that you'd miss much without a sub unless you listen to classical pipe organ or you intend to use in a home theater (HT).

Chris

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However the TH-50 subs sucked, I mean really sucked. Not my cup of tea at all. Some have suggested that the system was "over-tweaked" to impress the audience which may be the case, I don't know.

I wouldn't use that sub crossed over above 40 Hz (steep slope) under any conditions.

Every instance that I heard of someone not liking the TH series - they were crossed too high and used a gentle slope crossover filter between the bass bin and the sub. I'd recommend something like 24 dB/octave crossover filters instead - but crossed no higher than 45 Hz. There are good reasons for this recommendation.

I'd actually recommend either the Khorn or Jubilee bass bin in the corners if clean low bass is your cup of tea and you've got a bit of room--as it is in my case. However, the price goes up.

You could also take djk's recommendation and port a couple of La Scala bass bins, crossing these over to the Danleys at 300 Hz or below, then use some other subwoofer to take it on down to sub-20 Hz from the ported La Scala's nominal cutoff of ~70 Hz. I think that the Danleys with the ported La Scala bins would actually be outstanding and those alone would hold you until you could research the subwoofer issue more. I don't think that you'd miss much without a sub unless you listen to classical pipe organ or you intend to use in a home theater (HT).

Chris

Chris, surely you know I've already been there done that on this.............a long time ago [;)]

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/19799.aspx?PageIndex=1

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"There is some truth to the assertion that, the smaller the listening room, the larger the speaker that you need."

Chris

post-10840-13819712286316_thumb.jpg

post-10840-13819734233604_thumb.jpg

post-10840-13819764952632_thumb.jpg

post-10840-13819791763088_thumb.jpg

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Chris, surely you know I've already been there done that on this.............a long time ago

artto,

Unfortunately, I wasn't addressing your needs, but the OP's...

Chris

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I am also concerned about these being pro rather than home audio.

I've found that pro speakers can be much better than consumer grade speakers, especially in small rooms. Danley's SH horns would be on top of my list since they are co-entrant horn designs. They function like co-axial (such as the big Tannoy Westminster Royals) or full-range drivers (like the Fostex drivers) in terms of their imaging performance, but without the downside of high AM distortion and limited dynamics suffered by direct radiating speakers.

Like all the Danley designs, the SH's and TH's are very space efficient. If space (volume) isn't a constraint, I'd probably recommend something else, especially subwoofers. I'll never recommend direct-radiating subs since I don't like AM and harmonic distortion. Subs always need a great deal of headroom at sub-30 Hz frequencies due to Fletcher-Munson effects of hearing - eardrums don't function very well at those frequencies, so you need a lot more SPL to have "equal loudness" at those frequencies. The need to accurately reproduce 100+ dB(SPL) at 20 Hz is typical for home theaters and classical pipe organ performances.

What about 90x60 vs 60x60 for my room?

This is a good question. It depends on the width of your listening position, I'd think. If you move around the room, the 90 x 60 (with appropriate room treatments) would probably sound more uniform, and the timbre of the speaker would be more natural. The 60 x 60 would confine you to a central listening spot for best performance, and would also have a different timbre in-room. I'd go for the 90 x 60.

Has anyone attempted using something like Klipsch KPT-305 in small rooms.

That horn is really new, but there are a couple of guys on the forum that own them. Mark1101 and jwc, I believe, both use them. Mark1101 has a pair on top of MWMs, with K402s on top of that, all in a fairly small room. He is apparently very satisfied with his current setup. I bet it sounds BIG - which is good. The last time I heard from him on this subject, JC has bass bins of his own design, with the K-305s and K-402s stacked on top of them. His room is fairly wide and reasonably deep, IIRC.

The KPT-305 is nothing but a K-402 with a cone driver and enclosure behind it. The K-402 has good polar control down to ~200 Hz horizontally and ~350 Hz vertically, as the KPT-305 would have.

Chris

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Let me clarify what I've said about the Danley subs.

What I hear from them is a very compressed, sustained type of sound, very un-natural sounding. It lacks texture and detail. For instance, the subtelties of a bass player's tactileness in the way they strike a string or slightly mute it with their fingering hand. The texture of the lower notes of pipe organ. An un-natural and compressed sustain on large drums. It's as if a compressor was being was, or overused. To me it's even audible on a video Danley put together that's available on You Tube. At this point I'm quite certain this is most likely a function of the tapped horn horn design. I don't like it. I've played the bass for more than 40 years, actually playing professionally before I even went to architecture school. That's not to say that there aren't any bass players for instance that would love the Danley's. I for one don't particularly like using compression on my instrument although I know its quite popular amongst players much greater than I (as well as some who don't like it either).

Also, for what its worth, from a measurement standpoint I've noticed that the distortion properties of tapped horn subs appears to be very erratic, varying widely and extremely from top to bottom.

I should also mention that what I like "on-stage" is not necessarily the same thing I require for sound reproduction. One of my all time favorite bass rigs is the old Acoustic 370 which had large folded horn with an 18" Cerwin Vega driver. I hate Cerwin Vega. But this rig had the throw and power for me to be heard beyond 20 or 30 feet and yet didn't sound too loud on stage. And in the studio I prefer a good tube amp like a Marshall guitar head over a solid state head. So, it all depends. The Danley's might be great at a rock concert for the mains. And Klipschorns might be great for reproduction in my room. But in my book they are not necessarily interchangeable. However, if one like's what they hear, go for it baby! Its your ears that need to be pleased, not anyone else's.

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