Reciever Suggestions

[Flicker]

I asked this question in a different chatroom, and someone suggested I move it here. I am looking into an HT setup (5.1 for now, 7.1 down the road) and I want to use Klipsch RF-7s, RC-64, and RS-62s (all series ii). Right now, I have an Onkyo TS-NR609 that I bought brand new and has never been used, and I need to know what you guys all think: Can this reciever (7.2 capable @ 100w/channel) safely power this Reference setup?

I "know" I don't have the ability, due to where I am currently living, to utilize anything close to the RF-7s capabilites, so cranking them up just won't happen, but I would rather invest in great speakers now with a decent receiver and wait until I move to upgrade to something better (mid to high-level receiver or maybe even separates). I know the Onkyo is not "ideal" for RF-7s, but will it work without "underpowering" the speakers to the point where damage may occur? I have heard of potential problems with "clipping" from underpowering them and something about dips into a range far below 8 Ohms, and this concerns me a great deal. Feel free to dumb-down your responses or explain them in detail because I know next to nothing about receivers. Thanks for you help in advance!

[Youthman]

Can this reciever (7.2 capable @ 100w/channel) safely power this Reference setup?

Absolutely. Safety isn't an issue. Here is my experience....I had a Yamaha RX-V1800 Receiver (130 x 7). It had absolutely NO problems powering a 5.1 system. When I added the surround backs to make it a 7.1, I noticed I had to turn the receiver volume up a LOT more and still didn't seem to get the same power with only 5 speakers. It wasn't until I ran across a 3rd party review online of my receiver that I found out why. Apparently, although Yamaha claimed it was 130 x 7, truth was it was something like 130 x 2, 110 x 5 and only 55 x 7. My wattage was cut in 1/2 by adding two additional speakers.

The Yamaha could "safely" handle all 7 of those speakers, it just wasn't as dynamic as driving only 5 speakers. Now I have 220 x 5 so I don't have to worry about my amp running out of steam.

I "know" I don't have the ability, due to where I am currently living, to utilize anything close to the RF-7s capabilites, so cranking them up just won't happen, but I would rather invest in great speakers now with a decent receiver and wait until I move to upgrade to something better (mid to high-level receiver or maybe even separates).

I think your logic there is spot on. Main reason is speakers don't change....electronic technology changes daily and the longer you wait, the cheaper it gets. Also, you will receive FAR more benefit from better speakers than you would with a better receiver. Plus, you just purchased the Onkyo so no need to sell it and upgrade. Do that down the road IF you feel that it does not drive your system adequately.

I know the Onkyo is not "ideal" for RF-7s, but will it work without "underpowering" the speakers to the point where damage may occur?

I had an Onkyo TX-SR703 and it was 100 x 7 (like yours). At the time, I was driving my RF-83's and an RC-7. It would literally blow you out of the room. I believe if you stick with 5 speakers (not including your sub since it has it's own amp), your Onkyo will have absolutly no problem driving the RF-7's. Would you benefit from an amp down the road, yes. Is it necessary, no.

I have heard of potential problems with "clipping" from underpowering them and something about dips into a range far below 8 Ohms, and this concerns me a great deal.

The RF-7's and RF-83's are known to have impedance dips pretty low but you will be fine. You already stated you will not be cranking it so clipping won't be an issue.

Feel free to dumb-down your responses or explain them in detail because I know next to nothing about receivers.

That was all of us at one point. That's why the forum is here. Glad to help.

[Flicker]

Youthman, Thanks for all your suggetions, advice, and explanations--it is much appreciated! I think what I am leaning towards right now is sticking with my Onkyo (unless I find a great deal on something way better) and only going with 5.1 for movies. I will probably mostly just use a two-channel stereo setup 95% of the time when listening to music or watching television.

+ 1 (thanks for all the help in your PM, too!)

[dtel]

Very nice explanation Youthman. [Y]

Good luck Flicker, your doing fine, I bet you will be very suprised at the sound. []

[Flicker]

Very nice explanation Youthman.

Good luck Flicker, your doing fine, I bet you will be very suprised at the sound.

Yeah, I know I'm never gonna be able to turn those beasts loose where I am now, but soon enough, I'll give them what they deserve!!

[willland]

I am looking into an HT setup (5.1 for now, 7.1 down the road) and I want to use Klipsch RF-7s, RC-64, and RS-62s (all series ii). Right now, I have an Onkyo TS-NR609 that I bought brand new and has never been used, and I need to know what you guys all think: Can this reciever (7.2 capable @ 100w/channel) safely power this Reference setup?

While I agree mostly with what Michael(Youthman) said, at the lower/mid volumes you are going to listen at, your system will not have the depth and impact that those speakers deserve to have. It may not damage anything, but don't be surprised if you do get a little trigger happy with the volume and the 609 goes into protection mode. Just be very conservative with the volume and back off when things just don't seem/sound right or the receiver heats up to where it is hot to the touch.

I used my Onkyo TX-SR705 alone(no outboard amp) with my RF-63 system for a little while and it got very hot and sounded thin and strained when I boosted the volume for extended periods of time.

Bill

[Flicker]

Bill, thanks for advising me on that! Other than "hot to the touch," is there a way I can tell how much power I'm running to the speakers (so as to avoid 'reaching' that level?) OR, is there a way to keep the decibel level low enough so I'm getting a respectable level of sound without overheating the receiver/putting it into "protection mode?"

What are my options? Would I need one amp to take some of the burden off the Onkyo? Can I buy one that will work for all three front channel speakers? I'm just wondering. If it was you, what would you suggest? Thanks.

[Youthman]

While I agree mostly with what Michael(Youthman) said, at the lower/mid volumes you are going to listen at, your system will not have the depth and impact that those speakers deserve to have.

I did share that with him via PM. Yes, he would "benefit" from an amp but in answer to his initial question, no he would not damage the Onkyo by using it to run his 5.1 system. A 7.1 or 7.2 system would be a bit taxing on the amps and therefore he would get much less volume out of the amp and overall performance would greatly suffer (at least that was my experience with my Yamaha RX-V1800) with had more power than his receiver.

It may not damage anything, but don't be surprised if you do get a little trigger happy with the volume and the 609 goes into protection mode. Just be very conservative with the volume and back off when things just don't seem/sound right or the receiver heats up to where it is hot to the touch.

I never experienced that with my Onkyo TX-S703 (110w/ch). I cranked it and it just rocked the RF-83's and RC-7 that I had it hooked up to. It never sounded "strained" even at high volumes. That was not the case with the HK AVR55 (55w/ch) receiver I had before it.

[willland]

What are my options? Would I need one amp to take some of the burden off the Onkyo? Can I buy one that will work for all three front channel speakers?

Adding an outboard amp is a good idea but your Onkyo TX-NR609 does not have preouts(except for subwoofer preout) for adding an amp. Setting all your speakers to small((Onkyo setting is "full band---No") and crossing your subwoofer over at 80Hz or higher will minimize the low end burden on your Onkyo's amps/power supply and you should be okay if you don't get crazy with the volume knob.

Bill

[willland]

I never experienced that with my Onkyo TX-S703 (110w/ch). I cranked it and it just rocked the RF-83's and RC-7 that I had it hooked up to. It never sounded "strained" even at high volumes. That was not the case with the HK AVR55 (55w/ch) receiver I had before it.

Sorry, let me clarify what I meant. I AB'd many times with and without an amp and the difference was very dramatic which is why I came to the conclusion that the 705 alone was strained and thin.

I know weight does not mean everything, but the 609 weighs 5.1 pounds less than your 703 and my 705 and with a weight loss like that, power supply is where mfr's usually cut the fat.

I say give the 609 many demos with your setup and judge for yourself and be reasonable with the volume.

Michael, sorry, I did not mean to start an argument. I know you are just looking out for our forum brother so he doesn't let me spend his money.[]

Bill

[tmassey]

There are 3 channel amps out there for just powering your fronts, and you could allow your receiver to power the rest of the speakers. It would be a very viable and cost-effective way of adding an external amp. But as said, you would need a receiver with preouts, which is very common on most mid to high end receivers. They can be fairly pricey, but definitely worth it. You'd get a lot more detailed sound out of your RF-7's with one.

[Fish]

I think Bill and t got it right, get a good a good avr/separates when you can, you will know why when you do.

[Youthman]

is there a way to keep the decibel level low enough so I'm getting a respectable level of sound without overheating the receiver/putting it into "protection mode?"

As you have mentioned, you can't really crank them at your location so you will not have an issue with the Onkyo shutting down. You would have to be really pushing them for the amp to go into protection mode.

Would I need one amp to take some of the burden off the Onkyo? Can I buy one that will work for all three front channel speakers?

Again, I don't think you necessarily "need" an amp. Yes, if you have one, it would add some benefit. They do make 3 channel amps (B&K, Aragon, Emotiva etc) that you could use for the front three speakers and let your receiver power the rears.

Here is my thought though....get your speakers, use your reciever and then make an assessment whether or not it is adequate for the job. We can guess all day long but until you get it all hooked up and use it, you won't know if the Onkyo has enough power for "your" listening levels. What is "loud" to me might be "crankin" to you so it's all relative.

To me, the audio journey is just as much fun as it is enjoying your system once you have everything the way you want it. []

[Youthman]

I say give the 609 many demos with your setup and judge for yourself and be reasonable with the volume.

Totally agree.

Michael, sorry, I did not mean to start an argument. I know you are just looking out for our forum brother so he doesn't let me spend his money.

No appology necessary. I'm not offended. I think too often we are quick to recommend someone jump right into separates when truth is, not everyone needs separates. There are some very capable receivers out there that will sound amazing with a 5.1 system, expecially if you are moving from TV speakers to a full HT system.

We all have our opinions and that's part of the beauty of the forum. As long as we can be civil with our comments, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing.

At the end of the day, the OP has to examine all of the advice he is given and decide for himself what will work best for him, not for us. []

[odysseyrevolver]

The Onkyo is perfectly adequate for your present situation. There is no need to worry about damaging the amp or your speakers. It will get hot, but this is simply a characteristic of Onkyo amps, not an indication that it's about to explode.

[Klipschht]

Flicker,

If I were you I would go the route of getting the Reference II speakers now and use the reciever you have. If you can sell it and get a more powerful one with pre-outs I would highly recomend that. I asked Klipsch directly about the RC-64II before I purchased it, I was using an old Yamaha 75 watts per channel. I was told that yes there is a potential to damage the speaker from under powering it, however he also recomended that I upgrade when I can. I have been told that when you are "clipping" "distorting" the speakers you will know it. So I would say be mindful of that. Spend the money first on good speakers. Good speakers now will be good speakers 10 years from now. I was like you and was scared of damaging them so I bought a more powerful avr and an external amp. The avr in my sig is an Onkyo and it does get pretty warm, I think that is just the nature of Onkyo's. You will be very happy with just the avr and the speakers that you have chosen, however once you get an external, powerful amp you will hear the difference in dynamics and just overall power in the system, I was totally surprised. Again 1st: I would get the best speakers I could now, 2nd: Try and get a better AVR and make sure it has pre-outs, 3rd: look into finding a good external amp, however once you do this your fate will be sealed. If you are still concerned you can E-mail or call Klipsch directly and they will tell you exactly what to be concerned about. The Klipsch speakers are so effecient I think you will have hearing damage before you would damage the speakers, even at 100 watts. Sorry about the long post, hope this helps.

[tmassey]

I don't know. One thing I have found with my amp is it does add a lot more dynamics to the sound at regular listening levels. When before I really had to turn it up to get the full benefit of the bass and crisp highs, I now get that at all volumes.

The good thing about an amp is it can always easily be added in later, and doesn't necessarily need to be bought right away. What you can do is Emotiva offers a very good return policy on their amps, and their customer service is absolutely fantastic. When you get the money saved up, buy from them. They ship for free, and if you aren't satisfied, I believe they will send you a free shipping label to ship their products back to them. So if you don't like it or think it's not worth it, just send it back..

[Klipschht]

If I am correct in my understanding of Watts into db, and that is a big if. This is what you get for the RF-7II's:

Watts @ db: 1 @ 101, 2 @ 102, 4 @ 103, 8 @ 104, 16 @ 105, 32 @ 106, 64 @ 107, 128 @ 108, 256 @ 109, 512 @ 110, 1024 @ 111. Now that is at 1 meter away. If I am wrong please correct me. I do not know where hearing damage comes in but I would be willing to bet that you do not want to be listening at 107 db for long. And if my thinking is correct you would be taxing the avr between 107 and 108 db because if you are running all 5 or 7 you will be down to 64 watts per channel I would guess, and 108 db is over your max with just 2 channels driven. Hope I am right and that this helps. This is how I have been trying to understand. The people on this forum have been very nice and helpful. []

[Youthman]

If you listen at 107db, I can assure you that is definitely not good on your ears. Just yesterday, I put the KLF-30's at 102db and it was probably louder than I ever want to listen to it (and I like it loud).

I believe your math was incorrect Klipschht. Every time you double the wattage, you get a 3db increase, not a 1db increase. Here was my reply via PM to the OP.

[quote
user=Flicker]One more quick question: "How" do you calculate the
wattage jump when you add a separate amp to your receiver?

That
is simply determined by the specs. Let's take your 100 watt receiver
vs my 220 watt receiver. There isn't anything to calculate. I simply
have just over twice the wattage you have. The crazy thing is it takes 2
times the power to equal a 3db increase in volume.

If you take a look at the specs on the RF-83's,
you will notice a Sensitivity rating. The RF-83's are 100db at 1m.
This means they placed a microphone 1 meter (3ft) from the speaker and
fed it 1 watt and it produced a volume of 100db. So here's how the
power translates.

1w = 100db
2w = 103db
4w = 106db
8w = 109db
16w = 112db
32w = 115db
64w = 118db
128w = 121db (close to the power of your receiver)
256w = 124db (close to the power of my parasound amp)

As
you can see, I gained only 3db of "volume" over your receiver. But
having an external amp isn't about volume, it's about headroom. Let's
say I drive a ford festiva and you drive a corvette. They both can go
70mph but when we pair off going 0 to 60mph, there is no competition.
When you are watching a movie and the scene is quiet and all of a sudden
the building explodes...your speakers are basically having to go from 0
to 60. The amp with the most power will handle that better. Also, if
we both are driving our cars at 90mph, my fiesta is about to blow up
trying to go that fast. It's difficult, it's a strain on the car and
it's all it can do to go that fast. The corvette is chilling, engine
barely warm...simply yawning at the nice slow pace. Again, the amp with
the more power will run cooler, less strained at high volumes and
during dramatic scenes than the amp with less power.

I know my
above explanation isn't "scientific" nor is it "technical", it's just
how my little brain thinks and is how I can comprehend things like
"headroom" and the ability not to "clip" since the amp isn't straining.

Hope that helps,

Michael

[Klipschht]

Thank you, I stand corrected, and that was the point I was trying to make, you just did it alot more clear and correct.