"Reel" Music again...

[joshnich]

The best sounding deck that I have heard (owned ) is the tanberg 64. I don't know the specs but it is one amazing sounding piece of equipment. Not as easy to use for home recording as the teac 3340 but for basic two channel recording and payback it's the tops in my book!

Josh

[Mallette]

leaving for North Ark in a few

Dave, if you come through Little Rock ping me and your welcome to stop by and have a listen. You may even have a few digital pointers for me

I'd have loved to have done that, but I was on the west side of the state, old US 71, the whole time. Even by Texas standards, it's a HAUL from Texarkana to Rogers.

Dave

[Mallette]

I brought a still sealed copy of Kind of Blue back to a Klipsch gathering in Maryland at LarryC's place. We put it his Revox, and people were blown away.

WOW. Much as I love pipe organs and such, I'd kill for that. Gotta be awesome. I've only a CD but the magic of that session comes through even on that format. R2R must be downright spooky.

Dave

[jcmusic]

Dave, I wish I had a way to record the Jimmy Smith TPT (The Sermon) I have so you could play it back on your Sony but, I don't it's all about organ music.

Jay

[Mallette]

Mallett, the specs on yous deck are incredibly good, and now that you have got it back up to spec I can only imagine how great it sounds. It has as good or better S/N ratio and FR of Pro decks including Studer, 3M, MCI, Roberts, Stellavox, Nagra and Otari because it has heads that were designed and made primarily for playback of 3.75 and 7.5IPS prerecorded tapes. And, HWMM.

I hope to be able to hear it some day.

Boxx, my Aunt and Uncle live half way between Ovilla and Desoto, I would love to hear you deck one day.

Travis, you, Boxx...and everyone are welcome to Seabrook anytime. I think I've mentioned this, but I'll do so again here. I paid Lonelobo 25.00 for that deck 8 years or so ago. The holdback tension wasn't right and even after getting a manual and adjusting it I could not pull it into spec. The thing is just way too heavy (still can't believe it everytime I have to move it!) to ship and I could not locate a qualified R2R tech until six months or so ago I found Tom Tran at "Save On Sound" in Houston. He's outstanding. Not sure where he got it, but he had to replace the entire holdback circuit. Total, including checking out everything else, was 323.00. So I have about 350 into it and quite the bargain.

Travis' discussion and endorsement of Glass and Xtal ferrite Akai heads begs mention of what has to be the most successful deck of all time, the Akai 400. Totally mechanical, simple, machine with these heads that retailed "back in the day" for 149.00. It was my first personal deck and I used it for over a decade before selling it to a friend and getting a Teac. Those things may not have had the specs and convenience features of the "big boys," but they delivered top quality sound to us cash-short audiophiles of the day. Sort of what the Commodore 64 was to the PC market, perhaps.

Dave

[jcmusic]

I'm still using my Akai 747. I have recorded from cd and dvd (audio) to tape and the result is better than the source. I'm going to keep this unit.

Boxx and Mallett,

Boxx, you have a great deck there! You should keep it. In seeing the discussion about the various decks in this thread it reminded me that it is the "HEADS ARE WHAT MATTERS MOST" (HWMM). Boxx, your deck has some of the best heads ever developed and were used on both their Pro and consumer decks, Glass/Crystal Ferrite. The critical path for tape is obviously first the source itself; that being the tape--the condition it was in, how it was stored, etc. The next step is the heads, and it is the most critical part of the whole chain as far as reproduction is concerned. There is too much about head design and build to go into here but it is what made Ampex the gold standard in recording, not Studer, MCI, 3M, Otari. To compete these companies would either inovate better tape paths (I.e., 3M and Isoloop) or offer a lower cost alternative. Ampex had a whole department of engineers that did nothing but R&D on heads and everyone was chasing them. A few of the asian manufacturers were able to catch up towards the end, Teac/Tascam (they were licensed to build Ampex last machines) and another was Akai.

After the heads, but nearly equally as important on a Pro deck, the key is to get the tape to move over the heads in the exact same location, at the exact same speed, over and over again. This is what the transport system does and this is the main difference between Pro and consumer decks. Good Pro decks had to be able to operate all day, going backwards and forwards 100s of times per day. They also have to be easily calibrated for the varous types of tape they had to record on or play back from (calibration is called allignment). You only need to see a Studer A Series deck operate one time to know what a great transport system it has. You can actually hear it and see it with your eyes and ears.

The Pro decks had to come up with a compromise between head wear and duribility. It is important if you are getting a Pro deck to use for playing tape at home (Repro) to know what the primary design and use of that particular deck was for. Was the primary purpose mastering, editing, repro quality, recording, playback in radio stations, education, etc? Because, depending on what the purpose was, you are going to either have a compromise in the transport, recording and/or Repro quality.

For example, the Studer A810 has one of the best transport systems every built. It has locate and editing functions that are incredible and the machine is very easy to allign. BUT, they only have average Repro/Record specifications. The S/N ratio is 61 db for the regular heads, and only 62 db for the highly prized and sought after Butterfly heads. The 1 db increase in the signal to noise ratio is due to the butterfly heads having a 2.75 mm track width vs the standard 2.0 mm width. Mallett, your beautiful TC-765 has the exact SAME S/N ratio as that, with 4 tracks compared to two tracks on the Studer. A Studer A810 at 7.5 IPS, which is the speed the better precorded tapes play at, has a frequency response of 30Hz to 16Khz. Those are perfectly acceptable numbers for a Pro deck, and at 15IPS the high end jumps to 20Khz on the Studer which is where you want it. But for the person wanting to primarily play 7.5 IPS precorded tapes at home, this is not really the deck to have (setting aside for the moment that the Studer is 2 Track and most people are going to want a 4 track deck to play tapes on). Mallett, your TC-765 has a FR of 30Hz - 25Khz at 7.5 IPS, which is exactly what you are looking for in a good home Repro deck. There is nothing that can be done to change those specs on either deck other than to replace the heads with something else and completely rework the electronics. I'm not talking about relapping the heads, or buying new ones, those specs are for brand new heads, in perfect alignment. Electronics after the head will not improve S/N ratio or FR. HWMM

Otari MX5050 BII2 series are great decks. They were designed for radio stations, for primarily Repro purposes, and also used in a lot of universities and educations instutions. They can be abused by kids learning, and at radio stations where they probably didn't have a full time engineer to align them and maintain them. They were a much cheeper alternative to getting Ampex or Studer if you were simply going to be playing the most recent 7.5 IPS 2 track version of America's Top 40 over your radio station. Stations would receive their syndicated programming on 1/4" two track tape and someone would pop it on the Otari hit play and then watch a program sheet to know when to hit pause so they could play a local commercial from their CART machine.

Otari MX5050 BII2 with the 4 head option are very popular with folks who got into the Tape Project because they Repro 2 Track at 15 IPS, in the IEC/CCIR equalization, which is the speed and equalization of Tape Project tapes. The BII also came with a 4th head option that allows you to Repro 4 track consumer tapes with NAB equalization used on US prerecorded tapes. (Canyonman, does Otari have 3.75 IPS playback speed also?). It is easy to switch the EQ on the back of the deck with the flip of a switch, and you change from 2 track to 4 track by sliding a switch on the head stack. So you have ONE deck, and it can play back both Tape Project tapes and prerecorded 4 track tapes. BUT, again, it is HWMM. The S/N on the Otari on 2 track at 7.5 IPS/IEC is 62db, which is very respectible, better than the Studer. On four track/NAB it is also 61db. That is less S/N which of course equates to slightly more noise than your Sony Mallett. The FR at at 7.5 IPS on the Otari is 20Hz to 18Khz, Mallett that is 10 on the bottom end of your Sony, but you have more top end.

Another deck that is very popular with Tape Project customers are the Technics decks with the Isoloop type transport. They are available in a number of models that have both a two track and 4 track Repro capability. However, they are only available with NAB EQ, unlike the Otari, and so a lot of folks with that machine both tube Repro amps from Bottlehead.com that you wire directly to, guess what, THE HEADs, that offer NAB and IEC Eq, and balanced inputs and outputs (that is a topic for a whole different discussion of why it is nice to have balanced inputs/outputs on a deck, but unless you have balanced electronics up the line, like BAT, not worth discussing at this point). Bottleheads has two head preamplifiers available, one is about $800 or so and another that is someting like $4K. By the way, MX110 and other vintage Mac preamps have a built in head preamp that sounds absolutely stunning. It is not difficult to do the direct wire on this if anyone wants to try it out. The FR response on the Technics heads are stunning, 20Hz to 25Khz at 7.5 IPS, and 30Hz to 30Khz at 15 IPS which is as good or better than just about any deck out there, Pro or consumer. They are not as strong on noise, 60db S/N ratio.

Before I talk a talk about consumer decks let me bring up the gold standard, the Ampex ATR 100 series machine. Tape Project tapes are recorded on these machines. There is a very good reason for this--it is the HWMM. The S/N Ratio ofr 15 IPS/IEC is 74db! That is over 10x quieter than a Studer. The FR at 15 IPS is 20HZ to 20Khz.

As far as consumer decks for listening to 4 track prerecorded tapes there are a lot of different ways to go. Towards the end, in the 80s the top of the line consumer decks were achieving some remarkable things, they were every bit as good as Pro decks in terms of Repro. They don't have the beautiful fluid transports of a Studer or an Ampex, but than who plays R2R 12 hours a day, 200 days a year at home to where you would even need that. The Akai, the Technics, the Revox all have superior Repro capability than most Pro decks because they were designed for primarily hi-fi repro in mind and used heads designed primarily for Repro and HWMM.

For example, Akai 747 with those great GX heads have a FR of 25 Hz to 33Khz, and a S/N of 65db. WIth built in DBX and using EE tape I think the S/N ratio jumps to someting like 80db or higher.You you have close to 100db of dynamic range, equal to CD.

The Revox B77 has a great transport and respectible S/N and FR.

One of the last consumer decks was the X2000 R, it has a FR of 30 to 40Khz (thats Forty) and a S/N of 65db. You don't even need noise reduction with that good of a ratio, but if you want to put your amp up to full blast and don't want to hear any hiss just punch the DBX NR in and you have a S/N of 100db and dynamic range of over 115db exceeding the DR of CD.

Mallett, the specs on yous deck are incredibly good, and now that you have got it back up to spec I can only imagine how great it sounds. It has as good or better S/N ratio and FR of Pro decks including Studer, 3M, MCI, Roberts, Stellavox, Nagra and Otari because it has heads that were designed and made primarily for playback of 3.75 and 7.5IPS prerecorded tapes. And, HWMM.

I hope to be able to hear it some day.

Boxx, my Aunt and Uncle live half way between Ovilla and Desoto, I would love to hear you deck one day.

Travis

Travis, I don't know where you aquired those s/n ratio numbers but, my individual deck came with a Test Report directly from Revox/Studer and the record/sync/reproduce s/n ratio numbers are 66 & 65 @7.5ips respectively.

Yes the Otari has the ability to play at 3.75ips but you have to go into the back of the deck to change it.

[kaiser SET say]

leaving for North Ark in a few

Dave, if you come through Little Rock ping me and your welcome to stop by and have a listen. You may even have a few digital pointers for me

I'd have loved to have done that, but I was on the west side of the state, old US 71, the whole time. Even by Texas standards, it's a HAUL from Texarkana to Rogers.

Dave

Maybe next time Dave, you are always welcome. I take it you had a succesful trip[]

[Mallette]

Maybe next time Dave, you are always welcome. I take it you had a succesful trip

Awesome. Weather was perfect, fall colors exceptional, and the wedding festivities wonderful. My brothers new home overlooking Beaver Lake is exceptionally beautiful.

Looking forward to more trips up there...

Dave

[Travis In Austin]

Travis, I don't know where you aquired those s/n ratio numbers but, my individual deck came with a Test Report directly from Revox/Studer and the record/sync/reproduce s/n ratio numbers are 66 & 65 @7.5ips respectively.

Yes the Otari has the ability to play at 3.75ips but you have to go into the back of the deck to change it.

I was going from memory, but I pulled out my Studer Service Manual on the A810, and my numbers were correct. I was using Linear RMS numbers for 30Hz - 20Khz which is the same as the numbers I was using on the other decks. I wanted to keep Apples to Apples.

The test report sheets I have from Studer were typically done using RMS A WEIGHTED values. Weighted values, as with all manufacturers, have higher S/N ratios/less noise compared to Linear RMS values. The numbers can vary depending on whether it was done using IEC (CCIR) curve or NAB. You will always have lower ratios/more noise using IEC Eq than NAB, it is just a function of the EQ. But that test report means just about as much as the mileage numbers on a new car unless you have two other pieces of key information. The amount of NanoWebers-per-meter it was recorded at and on what tape; AND, which heads they are talking about on the test. The specs I used were from Repro heads. On prodecks you can also repro through the Record heads, it is how you do sound on sound recordings/Simul Synch. There are differenct specs for Repro heads and records heads on pro decks, and this is true with Studer. The test report should let you know that. I was using 510 nWb/m specs on the numbers in my original post to keep apples to apples and oranges to oranges, it is the whole reason this data is included with the specifications in the Ampex, Otrari and manuals. I could actually get in excess of 76db of S/N from a Studer A810 using Ampex GP--9 and recording at 1040 nWb/m (+9Vu) but it woldn't tell you how it compares to other decks. It is easy to convert the numbers from the test sheet to what it would be equiq. to other recording strength and tape.

Every deck with IEC/NAB selectivity will have lower ratios in IEC than in NAB, that is why specs on Pro decks typically list both sets of numbers of each EQ. The S/N Ratio for IEC, which I assume is the curve you are running for Tape Project tapes, @15 IPS, using 510 nWb/m (+8 Vu) the manual says 66db S/N for 15 IPS and 64 db for 7.5 IPS. Those numbers are for regular 2.0 mm heads, not butterfly, but it is not that much of a difference.If your test report was done at 1040 nWb/m those would be extreamely disapointing numbers.

So your deck is right at specifications for A Weighted numbers, which equate to 61db RMS linear, which is also from the manual, and the numbers I used to keep apples to apples. And those are impressive numbers, extreamely quiet, but I wanted people to understand you don't need a studio deck to get great sound and no hiss and why Ampex was a standard for so long Ampex. 10db difference is 10x more or less noise.

Travis

[Mallette]

I was going from memory, but I pulled out my Studer Service Manual on the A810, and my numbers were correct.

Don't mess with Texas...[]

Dave

[juniper8]

What a great thread, thanks for sharing!!!!

[Boxx]

What a great thread, thanks for sharing!!!!

Once the reels get to rolling its hard to stop...

[juniper8]

What a great thread, thanks for sharing!!!!

One the reels get to rolling its hard to stop...

I'AM IN!!!

[Boxx]

What a great thread, thanks for sharing!!!!

One the reels get to rolling its hard to stop...

I'AM IN!!!

Let me try that again.... Once the reels get to rolling its hard to stop... Now that's better.... lol.

[jcmusic]

Travis, I don't know where you aquired those s/n ratio numbers but, my individual deck came with a Test Report directly from Revox/Studer and the record/sync/reproduce s/n ratio numbers are 66 & 65 @7.5ips respectively.

Yes the Otari has the ability to play at 3.75ips but you have to go into the back of the deck to change it.

I was going from memory, but I pulled out my Studer Service Manual on the A810, and my numbers were correct. I was using Linear RMS numbers for 30Hz - 20Khz which is the same as the numbers I was using on the other decks. I wanted to keep Apples to Apples.

The test report sheets I have from Studer were typically done using RMS A WEIGHTED values. Weighted values, as with all manufacturers, have higher S/N ratios/less noise compared to Linear RMS values. The numbers can vary depending on whether it was done using IEC (CCIR) curve or NAB. You will always have lower ratios/more noise using IEC Eq than NAB, it is just a function of the EQ. But that test report means just about as much as the mileage numbers on a new car unless you have two other pieces of key information. The amount of NanoWebers-per-meter it was recorded at and on what tape; AND, which heads they are talking about on the test. The specs I used were from Repro heads. On prodecks you can also repro through the Record heads, it is how you do sound on sound recordings/Simul Synch. There are differenct specs for Repro heads and records heads on pro decks, and this is true with Studer. The test report should let you know that. I was using 510 nWb/m specs on the numbers in my original post to keep apples to apples and oranges to oranges, it is the whole reason this data is included with the specifications in the Ampex, Otrari and manuals. I could actually get in excess of 76db of S/N from a Studer A810 using Ampex GP--9 and recording at 1040 nWb/m (+9Vu) but it woldn't tell you how it compares to other decks. It is easy to convert the numbers from the test sheet to what it would be equiq. to other recording strength and tape.

Every deck with IEC/NAB selectivity will have lower ratios in IEC than in NAB, that is why specs on Pro decks typically list both sets of numbers of each EQ. The S/N Ratio for IEC, which I assume is the curve you are running for Tape Project tapes, @15 IPS, using 510 nWb/m (+8 Vu) the manual says 66db S/N for 15 IPS and 64 db for 7.5 IPS. Those numbers are for regular 2.0 mm heads, not butterfly, but it is not that much of a difference.If your test report was done at 1040 nWb/m those would be extreamely disapointing numbers.

So your deck is right at specifications for A Weighted numbers, which equate to 61db RMS linear, which is also from the manual, and the numbers I used to keep apples to apples. And those are impressive numbers, extreamely quiet, but I wanted people to understand you don't need a studio deck to get great sound and no hiss and why Ampex was a standard for so long Ampex. 10db difference is 10x more or less noise.

Travis

Travis,

It's late and I am going out of town tomorrow when I return I will dig out the test numbers, I know all the info is there I just used the first ones listed.

[Mallette]

So, my Handel "Ode to St. Cecilia" Das Alter Werke recording showed up. 6.50 total.

Awesome. Complete with booklet and in NM condition except no leader. Sound is marvelous. Rare to find a perfectly clean LP of 40 plus years of age. Listening to this was like "breaking shrink" in the old days. I am sure this tape cost more than I paid for it "back in the day."

1:3 setting on the DBX, slight amount of impact restoration, and it's silent and about as good as "being there."

It's going to be hard to resist browsing the R2R on Ebay. So much music, so little time!

Dave

[Mallette]

So, my Handel "Ode to St. Cecilia" Das Alte Werke recording showed up. 6.50 total.

Awesome. Complete with booklet and in NM condition except no leader. Sound is marvelous. Rare to find a perfectly clean LP of 40 plus years of age. Listening to this was like "breaking shrink" in the old days. I am sure this tape cost more than I paid for it "back in the day."

1:3 setting on the DBX, slight amount of impact restoration, and it's silent and about as good as "being there."

It's going to be hard to resist browsing the R2R on Ebay. So much music, so little time!

Dave

[HDBRbuilder]

I still have my old TEAC A-2340-R simultrak deck, and a DBX II 4-channel noise reduction unit for it...even have a few, but not many, pre-recorded tapes, that may or may not be any good...Jethro Tull "Aqualung" in quad...LOL!...and at least one by CSNY...guess which one! Can you say "Deja Vu"?

[Travis In Austin]

I still have my old TEAC A-2340-R simultrak deck, and a DBX II 4-channel noise reduction unit for it...even have a few, but not many, pre-recorded tapes, that may or may not be any good...Jethro Tull "Aqualung" in quad...LOL!...and at least one by CSNY...guess which one! Can you say "Deja Vu"?

HDR, you should be spinning that tape, and I am sure they will be
just fine as not exposed to any temp/humidity extreames for very long.

Your
Jethro Tull Aqualung in quad is worth at least $100, and may have gone
for easily in excess of of 200. Quad tapes, on average, command the
highest prices on PR tape.

Travis

[Travis In Austin]

Well, more like$150 or so for Aqua Lung, but I was close. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jethro-Tull-Aqualung-Reel-to-Reel-4-Track-Tape-Discrete-7-1-2-IPS-QUADRAPHONIC-/221135766473?pt=Music_Other_Formats&hash=item337cb803c9