Why do I like the sound of Chorus Is better than my Forte IIs?

[bracurrie]

What upgrades did you do and please describe best you can the improvement?

Thanks Craig. Fair question. I haven't touched the squawker but did install the Bob Crites crossover upgrade and his tweeter diaphragm upgrade. The speaker seemingly opened up. Better highs and mids to go with the strong bass. Miles Davis sounds like he could be in the room. Robin Trower - Bridge of Sighs is so detailed you can almost detect the long miced room he used for his guitar sound. I agree with the comments about the measurements on the low end being a little off from published Klipsh specs. I have worked a lot on placement and feel like I have them in the right place in the room, but hey I could be wrong here.

For rock and pop these are the best I have ever owned. For acoustic jazz and bluegrass I can't really put my finger just what is wrong. It could be the difference between a well tuned 2-way versus a 3-way. Now you may know, I have a jube clone/ Eliptrac-Faital two way system so my ear is tuned to how well that performs. When I have my jube setup out for loan and listen to my Forte IIs its different to be sure and enjoyable. I just wonder if its a pipe dream to improve them further. Or should I begin the quest for a two-way to take the place of my jube setup when it goes away for good. Single driver systems also intrigue me.

I look forward to your thoughts.

[oldtimer]

There was a guy who did a single driver horn called the maxxhorn in our area. I really liked it. Were you ever right next to Miles Davis in the same room? I have so I know how it sounded, if your system can do that congratulations.

[LarryC]

For rock and pop these are the best I have ever owned. For acoustic jazz and bluegrass I can't really put my finger just what is wrong. It could be the difference between a well tuned 2-way versus a 3-way. Now you may know, I have a jube clone/ Eliptrac-Faital two way system so my ear is tuned to how well that performs. When I have my jube setup out for loan and listen to my Forte IIs its different to be sure and enjoyable. I just wonder if its a pipe dream to improve them further.

The thing about subjective judgements like this is that no one but you can get inside your head and hear music the way you do. No one else can know your history of what kind of music you've always listened to, and how that shapes your interpretation of what you hear. That said, however, I wonder if your standard for how speakers sound is how well they measure up to how accurately the musical sounds approach your own experience. For example, acoustic jazz and bluegrass sounds like actual acoustical instruments to me, while pop and rock could have a lot of artificial sounds that are harder to relate to real-life experience. That's how I listen to audio equipment, FWIW.

So, it's interesting that you seem to think that acoustic instruments you've surely heard in real life in the past, don't sound to you like they should whereas other sounds seem to meet a possibly different expectation.

In any case, my single attempt to upgrade my AK-4 Klipschorns with a non-Klipsch product was not satisfactory from MY standpoint. Mind you, nearly every other person who installed Crites tweeters in place of K-77's thought they were a vast improvement! But, I and at least 2 others didn't have that reaction. In my case, yes, the new tweets were much clearer and added undeniable clarity. Even the very deep bass was clearer, an astonishing result from changing the TWEETER. It crossed over clear up at 4500 Hz, too! My only explanation was that overtones from even deep bass instruments extended clear up to 1K or 2KHz, and were more audible (overtones define any notes more clearly). The problem was that it was NOT a natural-sounding extension. It seemed out of place, sonically AND musically.

The problems didn't stop there -- I could hear WHERE the new tweeters were coming from, almost by looking at them, whereas the old ones blended into the wall of sound from the front of the K-horns. This was very distracting to me. Moreover, the nature of the notes' transients from the new tweets differed from that of the mid drivers/horns. They didn't sound like they were coming from a seamlessly integrated speaker system -- they were harder and stood out more, even from the same instrument! Finally, the balance between the tweeters and mids seemed to shift as I walked from side to side of each K-horn. It sounded like phasing problems to me.

Admittedly, I have always wondered if I did something wrong with the installation or phasing when I installed the new tweets. But it was a relief to go back to the originals, even though I was losing the dramatic greater clarity of the new ones.

I mention all this because I sense that there are many factors that go into how great a speaker system sounds. Not knowing what you hear, I'll simply note that something new can frequently sound "better" because you hear something new and think it's an improvement. Sometimes it's not. I still wonder what people actually hear compared with me. But I suggest another round of listening between your old and new if you can do it.

[Dennie]

For rock and pop these are the best I have ever owned. For acoustic jazz and bluegrass I can't really put my finger just what is wrong. It could be the difference between a well tuned 2-way versus a 3-way. Now you may know, I have a jube clone/ Eliptrac-Faital two way system so my ear is tuned to how well that performs. When I have my jube setup out for loan and listen to my Forte IIs its different to be sure and enjoyable. I just wonder if its a pipe dream to improve them further.

The thing about subjective judgements like this is that no one but you can get inside your head and hear music the way you do. No one else can know your history of what kind of music you've always listened to, and how that shapes your interpretation of what you hear. That said, however, I wonder if your standard for how speakers sound is how well they measure up to how accurately the musical sounds approach your own experience. For example, acoustic jazz and bluegrass sounds like actual acoustical instruments to me, while pop and rock could have a lot of artificial sounds that are harder to relate to real-life experience. That's how I listen to audio equipment, FWIW.

So, it's interesting that you seem to think that acoustic instruments you've surely heard in real life in the past, don't sound to you like they should whereas other sounds seem to meet a possibly different expectation.

In any case, my single attempt to upgrade my AK-4 Klipschorns with a non-Klipsch product was not satisfactory from MY standpoint. Mind you, nearly every other person who installed Crites tweeters in place of K-77's thought they were a vast improvement! But, I and at least 2 others didn't have that reaction. In my case, yes, the new tweets were much clearer and added undeniable clarity. Even the very deep bass was clearer, an astonishing result from changing the TWEETER. It crossed over clear up at 4500 Hz, too! My only explanation was that overtones from even deep bass instruments extended clear up to 1K or 2KHz, and were more audible (overtones define any notes more clearly). The problem was that it was NOT a natural-sounding extension. It seemed out of place, sonically AND musically.

The problems didn't stop there -- I could hear WHERE the new tweeters were coming from, almost by looking at them, whereas the old ones blended into the wall of sound from the front of the K-horns. This was very distracting to me. Moreover, the nature of the notes' transients from the new tweets differed from that of the mid drivers/horns. They didn't sound like they were coming from a seamlessly integrated speaker system -- they were harder and stood out more, even from the same instrument! Finally, the balance between the tweeters and mids seemed to shift as I walked from side to side of each K-horn. It sounded like phasing problems to me.

Admittedly, I have always wondered if I did something wrong with the installation or phasing when I installed the new tweets. But it was a relief to go back to the originals, even though I was losing the dramatic greater clarity of the new ones.

I mention all this because I sense that there are many factors that go into how great a speaker system sounds. Not knowing what you hear, I'll simply note that something new can frequently sound "better" because you hear something new and think it's an improvement. Sometimes it's not. I still wonder what people actually hear compared with me. But I suggest another round of listening between your old and new if you can do it.

Great post Larry, thanks for taking the time to "tap" it out.

What you say makes a lot of sense. [Y]

Dennie

[Boxx]

For rock and pop these are the best I have ever owned. For acoustic jazz and bluegrass I can't really put my finger just what is wrong. It could be the difference between a well tuned 2-way versus a 3-way. Now you may know, I have a jube clone/ Eliptrac-Faital two way system so my ear is tuned to how well that performs. When I have my jube setup out for loan and listen to my Forte IIs its different to be sure and enjoyable. I just wonder if its a pipe dream to improve them further.

The thing about subjective judgements like this is that no one but you can get inside your head and hear music the way you do. No one else can know your history of what kind of music you've always listened to, and how that shapes your interpretation of what you hear. That said, however, I wonder if your standard for how speakers sound is how well they measure up to how accurately the musical sounds approach your own experience. For example, acoustic jazz and bluegrass sounds like actual acoustical instruments to me, while pop and rock could have a lot of artificial sounds that are harder to relate to real-life experience. That's how I listen to audio equipment, FWIW.

So, it's interesting that you seem to think that acoustic instruments you've surely heard in real life in the past, don't sound to you like they should whereas other sounds seem to meet a possibly different expectation.

In any case, my single attempt to upgrade my AK-4 Klipschorns with a non-Klipsch product was not satisfactory from MY standpoint. Mind you, nearly every other person who installed Crites tweeters in place of K-77's thought they were a vast improvement! But, I and at least 2 others didn't have that reaction. In my case, yes, the new tweets were much clearer and added undeniable clarity. Even the very deep bass was clearer, an astonishing result from changing the TWEETER. It crossed over clear up at 4500 Hz, too! My only explanation was that overtones from even deep bass instruments extended clear up to 1K or 2KHz, and were more audible (overtones define any notes more clearly). The problem was that it was NOT a natural-sounding extension. It seemed out of place, sonically AND musically.

The problems didn't stop there -- I could hear WHERE the new tweeters were coming from, almost by looking at them, whereas the old ones blended into the wall of sound from the front of the K-horns. This was very distracting to me. Moreover, the nature of the notes' transients from the new tweets differed from that of the mid drivers/horns. They didn't sound like they were coming from a seamlessly integrated speaker system -- they were harder and stood out more, even from the same instrument! Finally, the balance between the tweeters and mids seemed to shift as I walked from side to side of each K-horn. It sounded like phasing problems to me.

Admittedly, I have always wondered if I did something wrong with the installation or phasing when I installed the new tweets. But it was a relief to go back to the originals, even though I was losing the dramatic greater clarity of the new ones.

I mention all this because I sense that there are many factors that go into how great a speaker system sounds. Not knowing what you hear, I'll simply note that something new can frequently sound "better" because you hear something new and think it's an improvement. Sometimes it's not. I still wonder what people actually hear compared with me. But I suggest another round of listening between your old and new if you can do it.

Great post Larry, thanks for taking the time to "tap" it out.

What you say makes a lot of sense.

Dennie

I agree... Thanks for taking the time to lay this one out... Well done...

[bracurrie]

Thanks Larry for taking the time to share your thoughts.

So, it's interesting that you seem to think that acoustic instruments you've surely heard in real life in the past, don't sound to you like they should whereas other sounds seem to meet a possibly different expectation.

To be sure its an individual thing born of experience. Living in a city where I don't go more than several weeks without hearing either acoustic or amplified live music, I am always looking to capture that repro system magic that moves me. Nobody can know exactly where that might come from for me, but I am always looking for ideas that I can enjoy trying. My 17 yr old son has played the violin since three and has a great ear. And even though he may be playing me like a fiddle, even he made the same observation about the acoustic sound from the Forte IIs.

In any case, my single attempt to upgrade my AK-4 Klipschorns with a non-Klipsch product was not satisfactory from MY standpoint.

I was very concerned that the same thing would happen to me after my upgrades.

I could hear WHERE the new tweeters were coming from, almost by looking at them, whereas the old ones blended into the wall of sound from the front of the K-horns.

Interesting you should say this. I distinctly remember running the Forte IIs with one amp and I thought the same thing. I said it was hot sounding. My audio tech repair and guru guy suggested trying a different amp. That cooled it down and the sound was more coherent or balanced.

I have always wondered if I did something wrong with the installation or phasing when I installed the new tweets.

Heck I rewired mine out of phase when I installed my upgrades and my heart sank on first listen. When I corrected the phase problem between all the drivers they sounded great.

Thanks again for the exchange of thoughts. This a terrific community of talents and experiences that never ceases to amaze me with their generosity as they participate in these forums.

[LarryC]

My 17 yr old son has played the violin since three and has a great ear.

I think learning the violin has special benefits toward learning to listen closely to everything, not just music. Of course, I played one myself in high school and college.

[wuzzzer]

Ordered new grill cloth and new grill pegs/rubber grommets last night. Not sure when I'll get around to sanding and refinishing the cabinets. Eventually will need one Klipsch copper badge. Only one grill had a badge on it. Put felt pads on the bottom corners so the speakers don't scratch up our hardwood floors.

[bracurrie]

Your going to enjoy them, I'll bet.

[dtel]

" Why do I like the sound of Chorus Is better than my Forte IIs? "

Doesn't really matter why, being able to chose is half the battle. There is many times things just sound different and it's really tough to decide, it helps when something just sounds better and you can chose.

You couldn't lose with either, and it's nice to be able to compare like that. [Y]

[Ski Bum]

Well it could be you just like the Chorus better but I suspect the modifications were poorly chosen from a lack of choices. I'm sure some folks will be some what shocked by my comment.

I would like to hear what BEC has to say on this, too. In the OP's case, the modifications in question are specific, BEC crossovers and ti tween diaphragms. Unless I'm totally misled, the crossovers from him follow the exact same schematic as stock but with tighter tolerance caps, and a larger autoformer. The ti diaphragm is measurably smoother and more extended than the stock phenolic.

While that is not a huge smorgasbord of choices, how are they any more poorly chosen than the original parts?

[vnzbd]

You can count me in the the group that prefers the Chorus (II) to the Forte(II). I had the CIIs and had read about the FII being basically a giant killer and I believe that PWK had them in his office. Could not wait to get my hands on a set. For me no comparison. Maybe the room or gear, or maybe I am just tone deaf!