Khorn tractrix upgrades and crossovers advice

[jorjen]

I have been using the Elliptrac 400's from Dave with TAD TD-4001's in my 3-way Jubilee Clones for quite some time now. Nothing short of an AMAZING combination to say the least. You WILL be pleased!

On the flip side of that coin, Deanos custom filters sound like s$%t but that's for another discussion. []

[KT66]

I have been using the Elliptrac 400's from Dave with TAD TD-4001's in my 3-way Jubilee Clones for quite some time now. Nothing short of an AMAZING combination to say the least. You WILL be pleased!

On the flip side of that coin, Deanos custom filters sound like s$%t but that's for another discussion.

Thanks for the pic Jordan is there a compatible TAD driver for crossing at 400Hz?Not sure there is yet a consensus on mid drivers for the Khorn.

[Deang]

"On the flip side of that coin, Deanos custom filters sound like s$%t but that's for another discussion."

I reversed the location of a couple of the parts to see if you would notice. I guess your hearing is better than I thought.

[jorjen]

You've got to get up pretty early in the morning to pull one over on me Deano! []

[jorjen]

I have been using the Elliptrac 400's from Dave with TAD TD-4001's in my 3-way Jubilee Clones for quite some time now. Nothing short of an AMAZING combination to say the least. You WILL be pleased!

On the flip side of that coin, Deanos custom filters sound like s$%t but that's for another discussion.

Thanks for the pic Jordan is there a compatible TAD driver for crossing at 400Hz?Not sure there is yet a consensus on mid drivers for the Khorn.

Recommended crossover frequency on the TD-4001 KT is 600hz with a 12db slope. Not sure about the 4002 or new 4003.

[Deang]

Thanks for the pic Jordan is there a compatible TAD driver for crossing at 400Hz? Not sure there is yet a consensus on mid drivers for the Khorn.

Try to remember that compression drivers are designed for pro use and the factory assumes that they are going to driven to the limits of their power handling capability. Since they don't want blown drivers showing up at their doorstep, they give ratings primarily designed to protect the diaphragm. For home use, you can cheat a little (within limits). Roy Delgado crosses the TAD at 400Hz using a 24dB/octave filter (both active and passive).

The crossovers I built for Jordan are actually two filters joined at the hip. Al Klappenberger designed a two-way steep slope (ESN) filter for the Jubilee. Jordan was initially going to use one of the larger JBL drivers, and I was concerned that he would be disappointed with the high frequency response -- so I suggested that he go three-way since he already had some JBL 2404's on hand. I took Al's two-way ESN design and tacked on a the 3rd order Butterworth filter for the tweeter. When Jordan decided to go with the TAD, he really didn't have to do anything except change the tap settings on the autoformer to adjust the attenuation. This is one of the greatest strengths of Al's designs -- on the fly attenuation without having to change the parts in the filter.

I used to lurk quite a bit at the Lansing Forum , and one of the things I learned over there was that a lot, and I mean a lot of those guys ended up going three-way after trying their TADs and Be loaded JBL drivers in two-way configurations. There is no right or wrong here, it's just a choice dictated by preference. At any rate, I had no reservations at all about steering Jordan towards a three-way -- even with the TAD.

[KT66]

If Al is snooping this thread ( where is he?) he will be happy with your commendation. Initially I will be running the Elliptrac with the K55M ( using 1" adaptors) but assuming I later decide to go 2" my preference at present in the DCM50 retaining the K77 - but I haven't dismissed the the BMS 4592 ND yet, hence opions are useful. I wish someone would post Als Universal xo schematic cant make up my mind just reading his web site. - not keen of the ESN - too many caps - I'm in favour of Mundorf caps which are about the best but pretty costly - would not touch Solen or Sonicap with a long pole.

I need clearer info on Als universal xo.

[Deang]

There's nothing wrong with the Sonicap, I just think they contribute to a lean/thin and somewhat sterile presentation. Jeff's own admission is that they are entry level, and he will recommend AudioCap PPT Thetas (film and foil) for those wanting the best results/sound. Solens of course are horrible, and I refuse to use them as well. I can longer bring myself to pay the outrageous prices applied to some of the metallized varieties just because they have oil in them, they are after all, still metallized caps. I prefer just to use straight up paper in oils and add Theta bypass caps if reduced ESR is a requirement. Networks with higher part counts get Auricap XOs and PPT Thetas in the tweeter section. As for Al's Universal, you can download all of the information for his crossovers from his DIY section. However, understand that there are two versions of that crossover, and I much prefer the original over the redesigned version. In the newer design, Al removes the 1mH inductance of the voice coil from the low pass coil. All of his designs incorporate this practice which I don't agree with. It's reducing woofer output and it's losing some midrange -- it's quite noticeable, especially when you compare with the old design and the Klipsch Type A or AA.

[babadono]

KT66 et al,

I have now installed BMS 4592 mid on my eliptracs, I have not had much time to listen yet (you know life and all that stuff) but they do sound sweet. I have them dialed back 13.7 dB (thanks ALK for that versatile 3619 autoformer) to strike some balance, they are so effecient.

I have a question for Jordan and Dean. What frequency are you crossing from the Jub bass to the TAD 4001? It was my understanding (perhaps mistaken) that the Jub bass could go higher than the KHorn bass bin.

But babadono

[Deang]

It's been a while. I just looked at the schematic -- I would say based on the primary high pass cap we are looking at 400Hz. Yes, the bass bin can go higher, but just because something can go higher doesn't mean that's the best way to go about it. Plenty of other factors come into play - phase, off-axis response, etc.

[KT66]

There's nothing wrong with the Sonicap, I just think they contribute to a lean/thin and somewhat sterile presentation. Jeff's own admission is that they are entry level, and he will recommend AudioCap PPT Thetas (film and foil) for those wanting the best results/sound. Solens of course are horrible, and I refuse to use them as well. I can longer bring myself to pay the outrageous prices applied to some of the metallized varieties just because they have oil in them, they are after all, still metallized caps. I prefer just to use straight up paper in oils and add Theta bypass caps if reduced ESR is a requirement. Networks with higher part counts get Auricap XOs and PPT Thetas in the tweeter section. As for Al's Universal, you can download all of the information for his crossovers from his DIY section. However, understand that there are two versions of that crossover, and I much prefer the original over the redesigned version. In the newer design, Al removes the 1mH inductance of the voice coil from the low pass coil. All of his designs incorporate this practice which I don't agree with. It's reducing woofer output and it's losing some midrange -- it's quite noticeable, especially when you compare with the old design and the Klipsch Type A or AA.

see here http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html my AK-3s are fitted, for a good while now, with Clarity cap ESA and Mundorf Supremes & better coils , The Thetas don't know them but not that highly rated this side of pond pretty ordinary in fact, hopefully not as *&@! as the Hovland Musicaps. Use Auricaps in electronics not in crossovers.

[Deang]

I've been to his site several times. At one point he was doing his evaluations using Magnepans, and I don't see how any of those opinions translate or correlate to horns. I only hear differences which I can state using general terms -- I read some of his stuff and I think he's a loon. The circuit dominates, the parts contribute, but not at the level of the circuit itself. I do agree that a certain type part can make the difference between something sounding good or sounding wonderful -- or that one type cap will work in some circuits better than it does in others. For example: the simple Type A and B (and probably the E, though I've never tried it) sound really nice with paper in oils. PIOs work really well in filters with a low part count, though I would not use them for some of the other things I buiid or any of Al's designs. So, making blanket statements about passive components is ridiculous to my way of thinking. Finally, there is nothing "ordinary" about the Theta, the Auricap is a phenomenal performer in filters, and as far as I'm concerned, nothing touches polystyrene as a coupling cap in tube amps.

[mikebse2a3]

Roy Delgado crosses the TAD at 400Hz using a 24dB/octave filter (both active and passive).

Actually the TAD is rolled of much steeper than 24db/octave Dean. Roy's 450Hz @ 24db crossover slope setting in the EV also has 2 additional filters that are used to increases the roll off rate steeper than 24db/octave and he also does this in the passive crossover which is down a good -30db by 350Hz.

Also it's important to understand all these parameters are used in combination with the driver/horns spl/freq responses to acheive an acoustical crossover @ 500Hz between the Jub LF/ K402-TAD4002

miketn

[Deang]

[Y]

[KT66]

the Auricap is a phenomenal performer in filters, and as far as I'm concerned, nothing touches polystyrene as a coupling cap in tube amps.

well I've never liked Polystyrene as a coupling cap and I've tried many, for equalization nets yes, besides where are you getting the high volatge Poystyrenes 500V? I have very few NOS 0.01u 500V - Polypropylene you mean?

Don't know how Audience manage to make their caps smaller than any one else for equal C/V , seems like they use thinner films and metalisation than any body else - some sound very good others too dull so can never be sure - I use Audience Aura Teflon cap in places where Auricap just sound awful you just cant generalisze.

Any way we are drifting off topic back to crossover nets.

[Deang]

Maybe the problem is NOS caps, which in my experience are usually ready for the trash can. You can can get AudioCap RT 600 volt polystyrene caps from Michael Percy or directly from the factory, they sound outstanding. 200vdc Auricaps of the same value are significantly larger than the more popular 400vdc value priced caps (Solen, Audyn, Jantzen, etc) and larger than Bennic and Dayton Audio. Of course they are wound shorter than longer, so they might give the appearance of being smaller though they aren't. I just built using some 20uF Auricaps, and they were bigger than the 40uF Dayton Audio (Bennic) caps I had sitting on the bench!

[KT66]

Can't see Polystyrene having the usual NOS problems - its not a hygroscopic material and stable but ...

My first AL-3 upgrade was to use Jensen PIO caps,specially made 13uF and 2uF ( rathert than stock 2.2u) - they were huge, after selling the La Scalas I reused the caps in the AK-3. Eventually got tired of them - they had a certain loudnes forwardness effect ( some would call it presence) not noticed with polyprop - at first they sounded awesome everytrhing bigger than life, strings had everything texture etc etc but after years of use they just wouldn't cut the mustard any more something happened they either deteriorated ot my taste changed ( also had Jwensen PIOs in my Heresey's) so moved on to the MUNDORF & ICW Clarity Cap ESA, very smooth much easier on the ear.

Still got those PIO caps cost many $$

[Deang]

You know, those PIOs take about 10,000 hours to break in. Being "awesome" during "years of use" sounds like a good thing, I wonder what happened? I still have customers using them after almost ten years of use. Did you make any equipment changes that might have contributed to the change? I have heard many good things about the Mundorfs -- which ones are you using? There is something else I would like to mention, but it would start a riot here -- so I shall PM you.

[KT66]

No, absolutely no changes at all to the xo while using the Jensens.But I have heard Jensens have had leakage problems and maybe even moisture absoption issues. Also tried Jensen's low values .01 for coupling - but no good.

As you can see all my amplification is valve and have tried many caps in those amps, beginning with humble SBE Orange Drops ( 715 & 716) , Jensen PIO, Auricaps, Hovland, and more latterly Clarity caps and Mundof. The Mundorf's are what I use now, Ag-Oil in the Marantz , Supremes in the Quads and Dynaco. Even using Supremes in the Heresys. I will be trying the Ag-Au-Oil Mundorf on the Marantz 5 monobloc later this year, but for large values as used in XO their prices are prohibitive so stick with combos of ICW Clarity caps and Supremes. Mundorf have a new EVO range ( cheaper) out now that may compete with their own top end range. I'm waiting for Tony Gee to comment on them. The Supremes are buyable similar prices to the ESA. The Clarity cap MR range is again too costly

In the AK-3 the current blend is Mundorf Supremes & Clarity cap ESA. I think the 'Parts Connexion' Canada do the lot your end.

[jorjen]

I've been to his site several times. At one point he was doing his evaluations using Magnepans, and I don't see how any of those opinions translate or correlate to horns. I only hear differences which I can state using general terms -- I read some of his stuff and I think he's a loon. The circuit dominates, the parts contribute, but not at the level of the circuit itself. I do agree that a certain type part can make the difference between something sounding good or sounding wonderful -- or that one type cap will work in some circuits better than it does in others. For example: the simple Type A and B (and probably the E, though I've never tried it) sound really nice with paper in oils. PIOs work really well in filters with a low part count, though I would not use them for some of the other things I buiid or any of Al's designs. So, making blanket statements about passive components is ridiculous to my way of thinking. Finally, there is nothing "ordinary" about the Theta, the Auricap is a phenomenal performer in filters, and as far as I'm concerned, nothing touches polystyrene as a coupling cap in tube amps.

Deano, you have got to try Duelund Cast Copper(CU) as coupling caps. I put them in my Dude linestage(2) and in the pCats(4) and I swear I will go toe to toe with anyone and scream at the top of my lunges they are THE BEST CAPS ON THE PLANET! Believe me I am not alone in this. The pCats came with Jensen Copper Foil PIO which are very, very nice caps but the Duelunds turned the pCats into something I would never have thought possible, OMG. Took my linestage which was already world class to a whole different level.

I have tried just about all the top rated caps(V-caps, Mundorf, AudioCap, Auricap, Obligato, etc., etc.) at one time or another and I have got to tell you it is not even close. No BS, they are that good. I cannot rave about them enough. I am not going to say they are not expensive and some values can be larger than a soft drink can but soundwise there is no equal. If one can make them work, search no more. I suggest EVERYONE at least look into them.